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Author Topic: Stop and think  (Read 16592 times)

CAGASS24

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Stop and think
« on: August 24, 2015, 09:42:56 PM »
Random pondering led me to the notion that MU has the chance to string 3 pretty objectively successful coaching tenures in a row.  In spite of dramatic circumstances surrounding the departures and arrival of Wojo [and there are many......!]this situation is potentially remarkable and questionably without contemporaries.  I feel good about Wojos role in the matter.  MU all day!!!!!!

Galway Eagle

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 10:00:09 PM »
Random pondering led me to the notion that MU has the chance to string 3 pretty objectively successful coaching tenures in a row.  In spite of dramatic circumstances surrounding the departures and arrival of Wojo [and there are many......!]this situation is potentially remarkable and questionably without contemporaries.  I feel good about Wojos role in the matter.  MU all day!!!!!!

Just three? I mean Deane went NIT Finals, NCAA, NCAA, nothing, O'Neil went to a couple NCAA appearances and an NIT. I think you could make a solid case it'd be 5 in a row of successful tenures and pending Wojo three stellar tenures in a row. 
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brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2015, 06:57:13 AM »
Just three? I mean Deane went NIT Finals, NCAA, NCAA, nothing, O'Neil went to a couple NCAA appearances and an NIT. I think you could make a solid case it'd be 5 in a row of successful tenures and pending Wojo three stellar tenures in a row.

Yes, just three. Deane won with KO's guys, then when he had to stand on his own, we followed those three years up with "missed the postseason" and "losing record". Love it or hate it, the whole "five years to judge a coach" thing has merit because it forces the coach to win with their own players, which demonstrates an ability to not just coach but also to recruit, evaluate, and develop their own players.

Maybe you don't need five years anymore because coaching changes now leads to such dramatic roster turnover (Buzz had a core of all his own guys by year 3) but personally I'm not ready to pencil Wojo in to the "success" column just yet.

I think he's shown he has potential, but before I'll agree to him being a success, he needs to get to the tourney and win. I'd also like to see more than one successful recruiting class. 2015 was great, but let's see how 2016 comes together and if those kids can play, not just win the rankings wars.
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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 07:05:22 AM »
Just three? I mean Deane went NIT Finals, NCAA, NCAA, nothing, O'Neil went to a couple NCAA appearances and an NIT. I think you could make a solid case it'd be 5 in a row of successful tenures and pending Wojo three stellar tenures in a row. 

Deane was fired for essentially telling Cords that he should be happy with an NCAA appearance once every few years.....

I'm not in the 5 year club but I would also rather see results before calling anything a success or failure.

BallBoy

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 08:06:14 AM »
Just three? I mean Deane went NIT Finals, NCAA, NCAA, nothing, O'Neil went to a couple NCAA appearances and an NIT. I think you could make a solid case it'd be 5 in a row of successful tenures and pending Wojo three stellar tenures in a row.

I lived through the Deane years and I would not include them in the success column.  Deane's team were not fun to watch and MU was lucky to score 60.  Deane philosophy was to extend the shot clock to shorten the game and try to keep it close with points.  MU would not be in the Big East under Deane and they would have fallen into the Horizon if he stayed longer.

Good partier and nice guy but not who was going to change the game for MU.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2015, 08:19:08 AM »
Yes, just three. Deane won with KO's guys, then when he had to stand on his own, we followed those three years up with "missed the postseason" and "losing record". Love it or hate it, the whole "five years to judge a coach" thing has merit because it forces the coach to win with their own players, which demonstrates an ability to not just coach but also to recruit, evaluate, and develop their own players.

Maybe you don't need five years anymore because coaching changes now leads to such dramatic roster turnover (Buzz had a core of all his own guys by year 3) but personally I'm not ready to pencil Wojo in to the "success" column just yet.

I think he's shown he has potential, but before I'll agree to him being a success, he needs to get to the tourney and win. I'd also like to see more than one successful recruiting class. 2015 was great, but let's see how 2016 comes together and if those kids can play, not just win the rankings wars.

One of the indicators of a successful coach that I like best is "What sort of shape did he leave the program in?"  When Deane left, Marquette's program badly needed a rebuild, so I'm not going with "unsuccessful" as an evaluation on him.

Deane's downfall was he wouldn't have been able to recruit his own mother.
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GGGG

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2015, 08:22:49 AM »
I lived through the Deane years and I would not include them in the success column.  Deane's team were not fun to watch and MU was lucky to score 60.  Deane philosophy was to extend the shot clock to shorten the game and try to keep it close with points. MU would not be in the Big East under Deane and they would have fallen into the Horizon if he stayed longer.


I agree with pretty much everything you say except the last sentence.  Conference membership isn't like promotion and relegation.  I don't think our BE conference membership is due to our Final Four run.  It's due to the standing of our basketball program. 

At worst we would be in the A10.  But I think we would be in the BE regardless.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2015, 08:30:29 AM »

I agree with pretty much everything you say except the last sentence.  Conference membership isn't like promotion and relegation.  I don't think our BE conference membership is due to our Final Four run.  It's due to the standing of our basketball program. 

At worst we would be in the A10.  But I think we would be in the BE regardless.

I agree.  MU would likely still be in the Big East, I've always thought the statement that Crean got MU into the Big East to be an overstatement.  With Deane we'd just be the butt of some great jokes like "Why do they call it the Big East?"  "Because DePaul and Marquette are in the west."

The bottom line is that Deane is gone because his ambitions were well under Marquette's expectations.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 05:49:50 PM by Crean to Ann Arbor »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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The Lens

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2015, 08:49:27 AM »
I love Mike.  He was incredible to me as a student.  I was in AMSU / MUSG and he was amazingly accessible and open to any promotion we suggested, often funding it himself.  That being said, it was time for a change and MU got the right guy.  I'll rag on TC as much as anyone but of the 1999 hires, he was the best.  Unless you count UW-M's hire.  TC was just so easy to dislike that seeing him leave was fine with me.

What is special is if this season unfolds like it should we will have had our last 5 coaches lead us to NCAA's.
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Norm

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2015, 08:53:30 AM »
I lived through the Deane years and I would not include them in the success column.  Deane's team were not fun to watch and MU was lucky to score 60.  Deane philosophy was to extend the shot clock to shorten the game and try to keep it close with points.  MU would not be in the Big East under Deane and they would have fallen into the Horizon if he stayed longer.

Good partier and nice guy but not who was going to change the game for MU.
You must have only attend games the last two years of his tenure, because there were some great games that were fun to watch where MU upset teams they had no business beating. There were some great victory parties at Turners afterwards too.

brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2015, 09:02:08 AM »
I agree with pretty much everything you say except the last sentence.  Conference membership isn't like promotion and relegation.  I don't think our BE conference membership is due to our Final Four run.  It's due to the standing of our basketball program. 

At worst we would be in the A10.  But I think we would be in the BE regardless.

I think this is a bit contradictory. Our standing as a basketball program when the Big East came knocking was largely because of our Final Four run. They weren't inviting us because we won a championship some three decades earlier.

Like it or not, the bulk of the 1980s we weren't very good. We had a good little run under O'Neill, but if we had regressed to being a losing program, the Big East wouldn't have been interested. Crean made us relevant again. We were a winning program, a program with enough financial support to get the Al built, it was clear we were trending upward.

In the 14 years prior to joining the Big East, we had 11 postseason appearances and 13 winning records under 3 different coaches. The collective, along with the commitment to the program, got us invited. But if we had continued to trend down and had 6 more years of mediocre results with no postseason appearances, I can't see us getting in. Crean's ability to show the program could sustain success had a lot to do with us getting into the Big East.
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GGGG

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2015, 10:29:07 AM »
I think when the BE came knocking, that if they were dedicated to adding two basketball programs, that Marquette and DePaul were by far the best choices regardless of the Final Four run.  You are focusing too much about on-court success versus the television market, the resources dedicated to the program, etc.  Really the only other logical choice at the time may have been Xavier.  But then who?  St. Louis?  Dayton? 

brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 10:47:27 AM »
I think when the BE came knocking, that if they were dedicated to adding two basketball programs, that Marquette and DePaul were by far the best choices regardless of the Final Four run.  You are focusing too much about on-court success versus the television market, the resources dedicated to the program, etc.  Really the only other logical choice at the time may have been Xavier.  But then who?  St. Louis?  Dayton?

Charlotte, who went to the A-10, would've brought a bigger market and a fertile recruiting ground. They also had a solid run of success on the court.

Let's not forget that at the end of the 1980s, MU Basketball was on life support. O'Neill brought us back, but had we stuck with Deane, who knows if we wouldn't have fallen right back to Dukiet-level success. In the first 6 years of Crean (before joining the Big East) Mike Deane had one winning season at Lamar (15-14 in 2002) and one NCAA bid (won the Southland in 2000).

If we had those same results I don't believe we would have been invited, and possibly DePaul would've been left out as well. Anyone who knows better can feel free to correct this, but I remember hearing this about our conference history. DePaul was huge in getting us into the Great Midwest. They were successful at the time and brought us along. When the Big East came knocking, we brought DePaul along. Quite a few of the Big East schools didn't want to go this far west, but it was justifiable because of our success, program dedication, and market. DePaul joining not only brought the Chicago market but also allowed us to repay DePaul for the favor they did by getting us into the Great Midwest a decade (or so) earlier.

I know, it's easy to dismiss geography, but the view of conference realignment was more geographically based 10 years ago than it is today. Xavier and Charlotte would have kept the Big East more "East", but we were the biggest non-football prize they could go for.
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The Lens

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 10:57:29 AM »
Charlotte, who went to the A-10, would've brought a bigger market and a fertile recruiting ground. They also had a solid run of success on the court.

Let's not forget that at the end of the 1980s, MU Basketball was on life support. O'Neill brought us back, but had we stuck with Deane, who knows if we wouldn't have fallen right back to Dukiet-level success. In the first 6 years of Crean (before joining the Big East) Mike Deane had one winning season at Lamar (15-14 in 2002) and one NCAA bid (won the Southland in 2000).

If we had those same results I don't believe we would have been invited, and possibly DePaul would've been left out as well. Anyone who knows better can feel free to correct this, but I remember hearing this about our conference history. DePaul was huge in getting us into the Great Midwest. They were successful at the time and brought us along. When the Big East came knocking, we brought DePaul along. Quite a few of the Big East schools didn't want to go this far west, but it was justifiable because of our success, program dedication, and market. DePaul joining not only brought the Chicago market but also allowed us to repay DePaul for the favor they did by getting us into the Great Midwest a decade (or so) earlier.

I know, it's easy to dismiss geography, but the view of conference realignment was more geographically based 10 years ago than it is today. Xavier and Charlotte would have kept the Big East more "East", but we were the biggest non-football prize they could go for.

We would have seen success again with Mike.  He had a decent class come in with Cordell, Olouma & Jon Harris.  He had too solid recruits who would have joined the next year in Stephon Don Don and Gary Buchanan.  Mike would have gotten us back to the NCAA's but that would have been the peak, then we would have hit a valley again, rinse and repeat.  I won't sell you on sustained success with him, but you can't convince me we never would have had good years.
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brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 11:02:15 AM »
We would have seen success again with Mike.  He had a decent class come in with Cordell, Olouma & Jon Harris.  He had too solid recruits who would have joined the next year in Stephon Don Don and Gary Buchanan.  Mike would have gotten us back to the NCAA's but that would have been the peak, then we would have hit a valley again, rinse and repeat.  I won't sell you on sustained success with him, but you can't convince me we never would have had good years.

Most likely. I'm just saying that if we had continued to do what we did in his last two seasons for the six that followed his departure, we'd either be in the A-10 or the Horizon right now.

Market size is great, but no one is banging down the door of UIC, Loyola Chicago, Fordham, or LIU. There are multiple factors that go into conference realignment. Being in a top-35 market helped us, but our sustained on-court success and financial commitment to the program were also significant factors.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 11:08:32 AM »


 We had a good little run under O'Neill, but if we had regressed to being a losing program, the Big East wouldn't have been interested.

Crean was here for 6 years before we joined into the Big East. His record in those 6 seasons:

121-65, one conference regular season title, 2 NCAA tournaments, 4 NCAA tournament wins, 1 Final Four, 3 NITs and 1 no tournament.

Our record the previous 6 seasons (under KO and Deane):

123-60, one conference championship, 4 NCAA tournaments, 3 NCAA tournament wins, 1 Sweet 16, 1 NIT and 1 no tournament.

The Final Four was awesome but it's not why we're in the Big East. Neither was the trajectory of the program under TC. History, TV, a geographical partner for DePaul, a decade + of solid teams and a (financial) commitment to future success were the keys.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:52:48 AM by Lennys Tap »

Badgerhater

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 11:11:22 AM »
I lived through the Deane years and I would not include them in the success column.  Deane's team were not fun to watch and MU was lucky to score 60.  Deane philosophy was to extend the shot clock to shorten the game and try to keep it close with points.  MU would not be in the Big East under Deane and they would have fallen into the Horizon if he stayed longer.

Good partier and nice guy but not who was going to change the game for MU.

I was one of the four students in the student section at that time and I agree with your post.

GGGG

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 11:23:07 AM »
Most likely. I'm just saying that if we had continued to do what we did in his last two seasons for the six that followed his departure, we'd either be in the A-10 or the Horizon right now.

Market size is great, but no one is banging down the door of UIC, Loyola Chicago, Fordham, or LIU. There are multiple factors that go into conference realignment. Being in a top-35 market helped us, but our sustained on-court success and financial commitment to the program were also significant factors.


Marquette was invited to join the BE in the Fall of 2003 - immediately after its Final Four run.  Before the Final Four run, Marquette made two NCAA tournaments in the eight years prior dating back to the beginning of the Deane era.  So there wasn't really "sustained on court success."  There was basically one great year after a number of mediocre ones.  I think the long term commitment to the basketball program was much more important.

Put it this way, if Marquette had lost to Missouri in the second round in 2003, I still think they get the BE invite.  If the decision was made in 2002, I still think they get the BE invite.

brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 11:32:09 AM »
Crean was here for 6 years before we were invited into the Big East. His record in those 6 seasons:

121-65, one conference regular season title, 2 NCAA tournaments, 4 NCAA tournament wins, 1 Final Four, 3 NITs and 1 no tournament.

Our record the previous 6 seasons (under KO and Deane):

123-60, one conference championship, 4 NCAA tournaments, 3 NCAA tournament wins, 1 Sweet 16, 1 NIT and 1 no tournament.

The Final Four was awesome but it's not why we're in the Big East. Neither was the trajectory of the program under TC. History, TV, a geographical partner for DePaul, a decade + of solid teams and a (financial) commitment to future success were the keys.

You quoted this:

"...if we regressed to being a losing program, the Big East wouldn't have been interested."

You didn't address that quote at all.

All I'm saying is sustained success (which Crean helped deliver) was a part of us getting into the Big East.

What if our record in those 6 seasons from 1999-2000 through 2004-2005 was 79-94 with 1 NCAA appearance, 0 NCAA wins, 0 NIT appearances, and 5 no tournaments? That's what Deane did at Lamar and Wagner during that 6-year period.

I'm not saying the Final Four got us into the Big East. I'm saying that our sustained success (which our Final Four run was a big part of) coupled with our respectable market and clear dedication to the program were all factors. If we had the results Deane delivered elsewhere at Marquette, we wouldn't have sustained success and the Al wouldn't have been built. There were multiple reasons we were invited. Tom Crean's success was one of those reasons.
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brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2015, 11:35:31 AM »

Marquette was invited to join the BE in the Fall of 2003 - immediately after its Final Four run.  Before the Final Four run, Marquette made two NCAA tournaments in the eight years prior dating back to the beginning of the Deane era.  So there wasn't really "sustained on court success."  There was basically one great year after a number of mediocre ones.  I think the long term commitment to the basketball program was much more important.

Put it this way, if Marquette had lost to Missouri in the second round in 2003, I still think they get the BE invite.  If the decision was made in 2002, I still think they get the BE invite.

A long-term commitment that was largely fueled by the excitement Crean brought to the program and culminated in the Al McGuire Center that was being built at the time.

EDIT: I agree that had we lost to Missouri in 2003 we would have still received the invite. I think there's a good chance if the decision was made in 2002 we would have received the invite. If the decision had been made in 2001, in the midst of a 4th straight losing season and with no Al McGuire Center in sight, I don't think we'd have received the invite.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:44:52 AM by brewcity77 »
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GGGG

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2015, 11:51:13 AM »
EDIT: I agree that had we lost to Missouri in 2003 we would have still received the invite. I think there's a good chance if the decision was made in 2002 we would have received the invite. If the decision had been made in 2001, in the midst of a 4th straight losing season and with no Al McGuire Center in sight, I don't think we'd have received the invite.


So what you are saying is that 2002 season was the key to the BE.  I just don't think that's the case, unless the BE was filled with a bunch of short-term thinkers.  Marquette was a good program back in 2001.  Better than other choices for the BE at the time.

Pakuni

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2015, 12:02:24 PM »

I agree with pretty much everything you say except the last sentence.  Conference membership isn't like promotion and relegation.  I don't think our BE conference membership is due to our Final Four run.  It's due to the standing of our basketball program. 

At worst we would be in the A10.  But I think we would be in the BE regardless.

It's obviously hard to say, but one has to wonder where the standing of the program had been had it remained on its trajectory under Deane.
I don't think the Final Four appearance was necessary to get a Big East invite, but I think it would have been far less likely with a string of no tourney appearances, falling attendance, etc.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 12:06:43 PM »
It's obviously hard to say, but one has to wonder where the standing of the program had been had it remained on its trajectory under Deane.
I don't think the Final Four appearance was necessary to get a Big East invite, but I think it would have been far less likely with a string of no tourney appearances, falling attendance, etc.

More important than Deane and to some extent Crean was the decision to invest in BB by Wild and others. 

Deane was fine considering the resources. He never would have cut it post the decision to invest.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 12:10:52 PM »
I think it's fair to say three, and four out of five.  Deane had some nice seasons at first, but we were clearly going downhill at the end.

Still, if Deane is the worst of our last five coaching hires, that's pretty impressive.  In that same time span, UNC hired Doherty, UK hired Gillespie, and IU had Mike Davis.

brewcity77

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2015, 12:14:05 PM »

So what you are saying is that 2002 season was the key to the BE.  I just don't think that's the case, unless the BE was filled with a bunch of short-term thinkers.  Marquette was a good program back in 2001.  Better than other choices for the BE at the time.

I'm saying that sustaining success and the building of the Al (which demonstrated commitment to the program) were keys to the Big East. The market helped. I certainly don't think it was a given just because of the six years before Crean arrived.

I agree with Frenns that the decision to invest was huge, but I feel that Crean's salesmanship made that investing an easier sell.

More than anything, I do fully believe the hiring of Crean was heavily instrumental. It wasn't just the success, it wasn't just his ability to generate fan excitement, and it wasn't just his ability to help convince donors they were investing in a bigger future, but it was all of those things that helped us get there.

It may not make everyone happy, but I do feel the Crean hire was the most significant hire Marquette made for the men's program since Al McGuire. No disrespect to O'Neill or Buzz, but Crean was the perfect guy at the perfect time.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2015, 12:35:04 PM »
I'm saying that sustaining success and the building of the Al (which demonstrated commitment to the program) were keys to the Big East. The market helped. I certainly don't think it was a given just because of the six years before Crean arrived.

I agree with Frenns that the decision to invest was huge, but I feel that Crean's salesmanship made that investing an easier sell.

More than anything, I do fully believe the hiring of Crean was heavily instrumental. It wasn't just the success, it wasn't just his ability to generate fan excitement, and it wasn't just his ability to help convince donors they were investing in a bigger future, but it was all of those things that helped us get there.

It may not make everyone happy, but I do feel the Crean hire was the most significant hire Marquette made for the men's program since Al McGuire. No disrespect to O'Neill or Buzz, but Crean was the perfect guy at the perfect time.

Crean was able to capitalize on coming off of a decent record in the 90s, I'm not entirely sure Crean could've built a program that was in complete shambles the way O'neil did. I think you could argue O'neil was perfect at the perfect time, Crean was perfect at the perfect time, and Buzz was perfect at the perfect time (we were in danger of being a team that only makes the tournament and never goes anywhere)
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BallBoy

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2015, 02:38:40 PM »

I agree with pretty much everything you say except the last sentence.  Conference membership isn't like promotion and relegation.  I don't think our BE conference membership is due to our Final Four run.  It's due to the standing of our basketball program. 

At worst we would be in the A10.  But I think we would be in the BE regardless.

I wasn't 100% serious that we would be in the Horizon but I don't think we enter the Big East when we did.  We might be there now but we would have followed the Butler and Xavier route.  There are many basketball programs who have had a history of success but are no longer relevant.  USF won multiple NCs and is no longer relevant.  MU needed a shot of success to continue the momentum which I don't think we would have gotten under Deane. 

A sweet sixteen from KO was great but it isn't a program builder and in most cases, like it did with him, the coach tries to parlay it into a better gig. 

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2015, 02:54:23 PM »
Random pondering led me to the notion that MU has the chance to string 3 pretty objectively successful coaching tenures in a row.  In spite of dramatic circumstances surrounding the departures and arrival of Wojo [and there are many......!]this situation is potentially remarkable and questionably without contemporaries.  I feel good about Wojos role in the matter.  MU all day!!!!!!

I don't believe it's an accident.

Marquette basketball will be good because the administration is committed and invests in the success of hoops.
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tower912

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2015, 02:59:40 PM »
I don't believe it's an accident.

Marquette basketball will be good because the administration is committed and invests in the success of hoops.

And when the administration isn't committed to the success of hoops, they don't last long. 
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2015, 06:59:27 PM »
A long-term commitment that was largely fueled by the excitement Crean brought to the program and culminated in the Al McGuire Center that was being built at the time.

EDIT: I agree that had we lost to Missouri in 2003 we would have still received the invite. I think there's a good chance if the decision was made in 2002 we would have received the invite. If the decision had been made in 2001, in the midst of a 4th straight losing season and with no Al McGuire Center in sight, I don't think we'd have received the invite.

There was only one losing season in that period, not 4. We have had only one losing season since 1991.

In regards to your earlier point about Charlotte, the rumor was that Georgetown, Nova, Seton Hall, PC, and SJ were throwing a fit over expansion not including more private/catholic/basketball schools. I think that would have really limited their options.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2015, 07:52:46 PM »
Deane was fired for essentially telling Cords that he should be happy with an NCAA appearance once every few years.....

I am glad that his blatant womanizing was not a factor. 


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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2015, 08:13:05 PM »
I am glad that his blatant womanizing was not a factor.

Was that unique to Deane?  Clearly there are examples/stories that span the spectrum with him - usually the uniting factor was his favorite pastime.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2015, 08:47:33 PM »
Personally, I like to stop and think where we would be if Marquette (and the rest of the C7) didn't break away from the Big East after Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Notre Dame, West Virginia and Rutgers left.  Not only did we get to continue playing Georgetown, St. Johns, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul, but we managed to partner up with Xavier, Creighton and Butler, all wonderful basketball programs and institutions, keep the Big East name, Madison Square Garden as the tournament site.  The Big East also managed to get significantly more money than the football-playing continuation of the Big East (the American Conference).  Most importantly, we did not get stuck in a conference with Tulane, East Carolina, UCF, Houston, and SMU.  If we got stuck in a conference with those schools,  we would have lost all the momentum that Crean and Buzz created/maintained during their tenures and our basketball program would have been irreparably damaged.

It is unfortunate that we don't play Cincinnati or UConn anymore, but, thankfully, we aren't chasing the proverbial (football) goose as they are.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2015, 09:37:42 PM »
There was only one losing season in that period, not 4. We have had only one losing season since 1991.

In regards to your earlier point about Charlotte, the rumor was that Georgetown, Nova, Seton Hall, PC, and SJ were throwing a fit over expansion not including more private/catholic/basketball schools. I think that would have really limited their options.

The losing seasons were based on the previous supposition that Deane stayed with the same results as he had after leaving.
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2015, 09:10:07 AM »
I was there in the Deane years and personally liked the guy and was a bit disappointed when he was fired.  But it was clearly the right move and Crean without question changed the direction of the program and created a foundation for success that Buzz continued seamlessly, including being able to hire a coach like Wojo.  I guess it was nice when I was a student to be able to grab free tickets from someone an hour before the game but every time I watched a game from 2006-2012 it made me wish I'd gone there a few years later.  Hopefully Wojo will continue that.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2015, 02:04:06 AM »
the decision to invest in BB by Wild and others. 


This is exactly right. One rarely sees here on Scoop Fr Wild getting any credit for the return to prominence of Marquette basketball but that one man, more than any other, has had more to do with Marquette's increased visibility as a brand.

I always chuckle when I read people giving the Bronze Beast so much credit for our ascendancy and entry into the Big East; that is laughable.

Fr. Wild reinvigorated the university and made Marquette University an attractive addition to the Big East Conference.   

 


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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2015, 12:00:10 PM »
This is exactly right. One rarely sees here on Scoop Fr Wild getting any credit for the return to prominence of Marquette basketball but that one man, more than any other, has had more to do with Marquette's increased visibility as a brand.

I always chuckle when I read people giving the Bronze Beast so much credit for our ascendancy and entry into the Big East; that is laughable.

Fr. Wild reinvigorated the university and made Marquette University an attractive addition to the Big East Conference.

This is true. Father Wild, Bill Cords, the BoT, and the rest of the administration deserve the brunt of the praise for putting Marquette in a position to become a BEast member. However, Tom Crean deserves some of the credit. You are amazed by the people who give him too much credit. I am amazed by those who try to give him zero credit. The ones who seem to think that we made it into the Big East and made the Final Four in spite of Tom Crean. The fact is, if Crean had come in and put up losing seasons from 99-03, we wouldn't have made the Big East. Would another coach have gotten us into the Big East? Probably. Would another coach have gotten us to the Final Four? Unlikely but possible. But a hypothetical other coach didn't do those things. Tom Crean did. Without the work he put in, we wouldn't be where we are today. And that deserves at least a little bit of respect.
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2015, 06:41:53 PM »
This is true. Father Wild, Bill Cords, the BoT, and the rest of the administration deserve the brunt of the praise for putting Marquette in a position to become a BEast member. However, Tom Crean deserves some of the credit. You are amazed by the people who give him too much credit. I am amazed by those who try to give him zero credit. The ones who seem to think that we made it into the Big East and made the Final Four in spite of Tom Crean. The fact is, if Crean had come in and put up losing seasons from 99-03, we wouldn't have made the Big East. Would another coach have gotten us into the Big East? Probably. Would another coach have gotten us to the Final Four? Unlikely but possible. But a hypothetical other coach didn't do those things. Tom Crean did. Without the work he put in, we wouldn't be where we are today. And that deserves at least a little bit of respect.

Well said, TAMU. Crean and Buzz both left, and so many try to belittle everything they did, never mind that they did a ton of good for Marquette while they were here. Just because they chose to go elsewhere doesn't mean they weren't an important part of helping Marquette grow and earning the basketball program the reputation it has today.

The irony is now we hear so much praise for Wojo and "doing it the right way" and how exciting things are...if in 5-6 years he leaves for another job, the same people that criticize and diminish TC and Buzz will be doing the exact same thing to Wojo. No coach is perfect, and ultimately, all coaches (even Al) leave. Better to accept them for what they are and acknowledge what they do than canonize them while they're here and demonize them when they leave.
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tower912

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2015, 06:47:26 PM »
I do appreciate the work and the accomplishments of Coach Crean at MU.   190 wins in nine years.  One final 4.   One conference championship.   5 tournament appearances.   Helped shepherd the program into the Big East. 
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2015, 06:56:36 PM »
Well said, TAMU. Crean and Buzz both left, and so many try to belittle everything they did, never mind that they did a ton of good for Marquette while they were here. Just because they chose to go elsewhere doesn't mean they weren't an important part of helping Marquette grow and earning the basketball program the reputation it has today.

The irony is now we hear so much praise for Wojo and "doing it the right way" and how exciting things are...if in 5-6 years he leaves for another job, the same people that criticize and diminish TC and Buzz will be doing the exact same thing to Wojo. No coach is perfect, and ultimately, all coaches (even Al) leave. Better to accept them for what they are and acknowledge what they do than canonize them while they're here and demonize them when they leave.
Yup.  Sometimes it's hard to leave gracefully.  In the end, both TC and BW did a lot of good for MU.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2015, 08:20:22 PM »
Well said, TAMU. Crean and Buzz both left, and so many try to belittle everything they did, never mind that they did a ton of good for Marquette while they were here. Just because they chose to go elsewhere doesn't mean they weren't an important part of helping Marquette grow and earning the basketball program the reputation it has today.

The irony is now we hear so much praise for Wojo and "doing it the right way" and how exciting things are...if in 5-6 years he leaves for another job, the same people that criticize and diminish TC and Buzz will be doing the exact same thing to Wojo. No coach is perfect, and ultimately, all coaches (even Al) leave. Better to accept them for what they are and acknowledge what they do than canonize them while they're here and demonize them when they leave.

Nothing about them leaving or diminishing what they did here.  All about who they were as people.  Unless Wojo is just wearing a mask for the first few years like Bert did and he's ignoring everyone outside of the basketball program at the University by the end of his tenure and forcing people to bend over backwards for him, I will be very thankful for his time here and wish him nothing but the best.  I think we will all be very pleased with Wojo from the start to the end.
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2015, 08:55:24 PM »
Well said, TAMU. Crean and Buzz both left, and so many try to belittle everything they did, never mind that they did a ton of good for Marquette while they were here. Just because they chose to go elsewhere doesn't mean they weren't an important part of helping Marquette grow and earning the basketball program the reputation it has today.

The irony is now we hear so much praise for Wojo and "doing it the right way" and how exciting things are...if in 5-6 years he leaves for another job, the same people that criticize and diminish TC and Buzz will be doing the exact same thing to Wojo. No coach is perfect, and ultimately, all coaches (even Al) leave. Better to accept them for what they are and acknowledge what they do than canonize them while they're here and demonize them when they leave.


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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2015, 01:01:46 PM »
Well said, TAMU. Crean and Buzz both left, and so many try to belittle everything they did, never mind that they did a ton of good for Marquette while they were here. Just because they chose to go elsewhere doesn't mean they weren't an important part of helping Marquette grow and earning the basketball program the reputation it has today.

The irony is now we hear so much praise for Wojo and "doing it the right way" and how exciting things are...if in 5-6 years he leaves for another job, the same people that criticize and diminish TC and Buzz will be doing the exact same thing to Wojo. No coach is perfect, and ultimately, all coaches (even Al) leave. Better to accept them for what they are and acknowledge what they do than canonize them while they're here and demonize them when they leave.

I don't think I have ever minimized Crean's contributions to the University basketball team. On the contrary, I have always maintained he was the right man at the right time for Marquette hoops.

My objections to Crean have to do with his bizarre world view that puts himself, and only himself, at the center of the universe. The manner in which he treated people at Marquette was disgusting.

My wife had several first hand experiences dealing with Crean and she was appalled by his obtuse self-centered callousness. In a life spent dealing with characters in a wide range of cultures and lands she could have listed maybe five people she was genuinely disgusted by and Tommy Crean was definitely one of them (hell, she even said Bill "Leisure Suit Larry" Gates Jr. was a better human being than Crean and that is saying something.)

Crean did a lot for Marquette's basketball team but he didn't necessarily advance the interests or reputation of the University. Can anyone look at what is going on at IU and conclude that Crean's stewardship of a very visible IU program is doing anything positive for that university's reputation? I am not just speaking of the players behavior either. Crean's utterly insane attack on Jeff Meyers in Ann Arbor was an embarrassment to IU - and there are many more similar examples.

Crean was good for our basketball program but he was less than positive for the University. And frankly, Crean overstayed his welcome by several years. I was glad he came but thrilled that he left.


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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2015, 02:24:20 AM »
No coach is perfect, and ultimately, all coaches (even Al) leave. Better to accept them for what they are and acknowledge what they do than canonize them while they're here and demonize them when they leave.

I think the problem here is that we want another one to leave the way Al did.  I surely do.
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2015, 08:09:12 AM »
This is exactly right. One rarely sees here on Scoop Fr Wild getting any credit for the return to prominence of Marquette basketball but that one man, more than any other, has had more to do with Marquette's increased visibility as a brand.

I always chuckle when I read people giving the Bronze Beast so much credit for our ascendancy and entry into the Big East; that is laughable.

Fr. Wild reinvigorated the university and made Marquette University an attractive addition to the Big East Conference.

My Fr Wild bobblehead agrees with this assessment.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2015, 08:29:05 AM »
I think the problem here is that we want another one to leave the way Al did.  I surely do.


Right, but that rarely ever happens.  Either they suck and are fired, or are good and get another job.  Wojo is probably coaching another 30 years.  Anyone who thinks that he will be at Marquette for that long is kidding themselves.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2015, 09:00:20 AM »

Right, but that rarely ever happens.  Either they suck and are fired, or are good and get another job.  Wojo is probably coaching another 30 years.  Anyone who thinks that he will be at Marquette for that long is kidding themselves.

You're probably right, but if there was a coach that is more likely to stay on here I'd think it would be him. Of course much of that I feel would be him winning at a level that us and him are content with and feel is sustainable.  He's very loyal to Duke but it's because his mentor was a lifer, he went to a basketball first, medium size, religious school that I feel there's at least a greater chance that he'd stay. 
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2015, 09:03:38 AM »

Right, but that rarely ever happens.  Either they suck and are fired, or are good and get another job.  Wojo is probably coaching another 30 years.  Anyone who thinks that he will be at Marquette for that long is kidding themselves.

 Well, I think you're on very solid ground, at first blush I can only think of 3 at the Division One level.  Coach K, Boeheim, and maybe Rick Byrd at Belmont.
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2015, 11:37:13 AM »
You're probably right, but if there was a coach that is more likely to stay on here I'd think it would be him.


You could find Scooper quotes from four or five years ago saying the same thing about Buzz.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2015, 11:38:04 AM »
Well, I think you're on very solid ground, at first blush I can only think of 3 at the Division One level.  Coach K, Boeheim, and maybe Rick Byrd at Belmont.


Tom Izzo.  Mark Few. 

Galway Eagle

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2015, 12:00:49 PM »

You could find Scooper quotes from four or five years ago saying the same thing about Buzz.

I'm quite confident we could be. Personally I didn't think Buzz was gonna be here long term. He would squeeze us for every last penny and there was obviously friction up top. But Wojo has shown a rare amount of loyalty to a school already, Buzz never showed that the longest he was anywhere was here for what 7 years? Before that 4 years at Colorado st, a couple years at Texas A&M, the year at Nola, some other stuff to.  Wojo had been at Duke for about 20yrs from the time he started playing to coming here, working with a coach who'd been at a place for 35yrs.  I'm just saying there's a pattern of loyalty wojo has shown and been mentored in that Buzz was not, O'neil was not, Crean was not.  It's of course possible Wojo leaves but if I were a betting man and were going to choose a coach that would stay out of our previous ones I'd choose Wojo (unless he somehow got the Duke offer or NBA)
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2015, 09:54:02 AM »
I'm quite confident we could be. Personally I didn't think Buzz was gonna be here long term. He would squeeze us for every last penny and there was obviously friction up top. But Wojo has shown a rare amount of loyalty to a school already, Buzz never showed that the longest he was anywhere was here for what 7 years? Before that 4 years at Colorado st, a couple years at Texas A&M, the year at Nola, some other stuff to.  Wojo had been at Duke for about 20yrs from the time he started playing to coming here, working with a coach who'd been at a place for 35yrs.  I'm just saying there's a pattern of loyalty wojo has shown and been mentored in that Buzz was not, O'neil was not, Crean was not.  It's of course possible Wojo leaves but if I were a betting man and were going to choose a coach that would stay out of our previous ones I'd choose Wojo (unless he somehow got the Duke offer or NBA)

Six years.  He'll probably exceed that at Virginia Tech given the facts that the program is lower visibility and his contract has VT over a barrel. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 09:57:03 AM by Crean to Ann Arbor »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2015, 10:20:27 AM »
Six years.  He'll probably exceed that at Virginia Tech given the facts that the program is lower visibility and his contract has VT over a barrel.

7 he was an assistant here for a year.
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2015, 12:42:27 PM »
7 he was an assistant here for a year.

The year as an assistant doesn't count because he had to flush himself


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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2015, 01:15:53 PM »
The year as an assistant doesn't count because he had to flush himself

Priceless!

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2015, 02:02:58 PM »
I get the joke but I missed the story.  Where was the Buzz doesn't flush story?  I'm not questioning it, more just interested in greater context.
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MUfan12

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2015, 02:18:21 PM »
I get the joke but I missed the story.  Where was the Buzz doesn't flush story?  I'm not questioning it, more just interested in greater context.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44701.msg646708#msg646708

How this one didn't sneak into the Meme Tourney is still a mystery.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2015, 02:21:38 PM »
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44701.msg646708#msg646708

How this one didn't sneak into the Meme Tourney is still a mystery.

Wow rereading that thread reminded me how bitter sultan can occasionally be. Yeesh

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GGGG

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2015, 02:30:01 PM »
Wow rereading that thread reminded me how bitter sultan can occasionally be. Yeesh


How was I bitter?  I didn't believe it at the time, still don't, and never heard it from any other source. 

Galway Eagle

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2015, 02:49:19 PM »

How was I bitter?  I didn't believe it at the time, still don't, and never heard it from any other source.

In the very least it's a funny story that has turned into some entertaining jokes you didn't need to call the guy a liar. He was probably posting info he heard whether it was true or partially true or what not. It's why we don't get people posting a lot of the stuff they hear on here.

If I had to guess Buzz probably clogged the toilet once and had to get a manager to plunge it or get maintenance and the game of telephone became Buzz has the managers flush the toilets. Doesn't mean Swan was lying though.

All that being said after going through just now and reading a few of the other things that have been spoken about here you aren't the only one. When I broke that Malek harris was suspended for the hair thing Brandx tore me a new one and that ended up completely true. So it's probably just the culture here. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 02:58:07 PM by BagpipingBoxer »
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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2015, 02:57:37 PM »
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44701.msg646708#msg646708

How this one didn't sneak into the Meme Tourney is still a mystery.

Wasn't this an urban legend but with Majerus playing the part of Buzz?  Sounds like someone took that old story and substituted a newer coach.
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2015, 11:11:22 AM »
Met a VaTech grad at wriglyville the other week. We had a good chat about Buzz. He finds Buzz's contract hilarious because VaTech will forever and always be a football school. Jury is still out on him over there apparently.

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Re: Stop and think
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2015, 11:21:12 AM »
Met a VaTech grad at wriglyville the other week. We had a good chat about Buzz. He finds Buzz's contract hilarious because VaTech will forever and always be a football school. Jury is still out on him over there apparently.

I'm trying to convince Paddy Long's to become a Marquette bar so I don't have to travel anywhere to watch games. It seems that one of my fav Marquette dudes from Schoolyard moved on to Kirkwoods... but I can't deal with the II,II stuff.
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