Transgender athlete given choice to compete with the men or women at Harvard.

[muwarrior69]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/30/418964333/transgender-swimmer-given-choice-of-harvards-mens-womens-teams

Would it be fair for a male transitioning to female to compete in women's sports? Wasn't there a tennis player that did that years ago? Not an issue in this case as the person decide to compete with the men.

[Tugg Speedman]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/30/418964333/transgender-swimmer-given-choice-of-harvards-mens-womens-teams

Would it be fair for a male transitioning to female to compete in women's sports? Wasn't there a tennis player that did that years ago? Not an issue in this case as the person decide to compete with the men.

Renée Richards (born August 19, 1934) is an American ophthalmologist, author and former professional tennis player. In 1975, Richards underwent sex reassignment surgery. She was denied entry into the 1976 US Open by the United States Tennis Association, citing an unprecedented women-born-women policy. She disputed the ban, and the New York Supreme Court ruled in her favor in 1977. This was a landmark decision in favor of transsexual rights.[2] Through her fight to play tennis as a woman, she challenged gender roles and became a role model and spokesperson for the transgender community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

More recently is Caster Semenya

Mokgadi Caster Semenya (born 7 January 1991) is a South African middle-distance runner and world champion.[1][2] Semenya won gold in the women's 800 metres at the 2009 World Championships with a time of 1:55.45 in the final. Semenya also won silver medals at the 2011 World Championships and the 2012 Summer Olympics, both in the 800 metres.

Following her victory at the 2009 World Championships, it was announced that she had been subjected to gender testing.[2] She was withdrawn from international competition until 6 July 2010 when the IAAF cleared her to return to competition.[3][4] In 2010, the British magazine New Statesman included Semenya in a list of "50 People That Matter 2010".[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

Semenya's case was much more complicated.  The easy way to explain it was she was "born with both male and female parts."  Apparently their are something like a few hundred people like this world-wide like this.

The IAAF (the international body that Governs Track & Field) uses a chromosome test to assign gender in your competition.  In Semenya's case she had both sets of chromosomes.  She was ruled a women.

If the NCAA does not get a hold of this, they are going to kill women sports.  It going to be Men will to say they are "gender woman" and that will kill the sport.  Just like Renee Richards almost killed women's tennis.  Sports are, in the end a form of entrainment, and fans of women's sports do not want to watch a bunch of men announce they are gender women.

[Pakuni]

If the NCAA does not get a hold of this, they are going to kill women sports.  It going to be Men will to say they are "gender woman" and that will kill the sport.  Just like Renee Richards almost killed women's tennis.  Sports are, in the end a form of entrainment, and fans of women's sports do not want to watch a bunch of men announce they are gender women.

Yeah ... for some reason I don't foresee a rash of male athletes declaring themselves women, undergoing hormone therapy and having their junk removed for the sake of kicking a-- in women's soccer and lacrosse.
But maybe you're right. God help us.

[warriorchick]

Yeah ... for some reason I don't foresee a rash of male athletes declaring themselves women, undergoing hormone therapy and having their junk removed for the sake of kicking a-- in women's soccer and lacrosse.
But maybe you're right. God help us.

Maybe if the money in women's sports got a little better...

[Pakuni]

Maybe if the money in women's sports got a little better...

[Tugg Speedman]

Yeah ... for some reason I don't foresee a rash of male athletes declaring themselves women, undergoing hormone therapy and having their junk removed for the sake of kicking a-- in women's soccer and lacrosse.
But maybe you're right. God help us.

How is the NCAA defining a women? After someone born male declare themselves a women, what else do they have to do?  Is the rest optional?

What I'm afraid of us all one has to do if say is they are a women and then try out for the women's team.

[Pakuni]

How is the NCAA defining a women? After someone born male declare themselves a women, what else do they have to do?  Is the rest optional?

What I'm afraid of us all one has to do if say is they are a women and then try out for the women's team.

You know the NCAA already has a policy in place, right? And said policy requires more than just a guy saying "I'm a woman, now let me play field hockey."

[Badgerhater]

Harvard does not have athletic scholarships.

It will get interesting at those universities that do offer them when a transgendered person gets an athletic scholarship and the result is that a natural-born person of that sex is denied.

[chapman]

Semenya's case was much more complicated.  The easy way to explain it was she was "born with both male and female parts."  Apparently their are something like a few hundred people like this world-wide like this.

[Benny B]

Yeah ... for some reason I don't foresee a rash of male athletes declaring themselves women, undergoing hormone therapy and having their junk removed for the sake of kicking a-- in women's soccer and lacrosse.
But maybe you're right. God help us.

You haven't looked at tuition rates lately, have you?

[warriorchick]

You haven't looked at tuition rates lately, have you?

For a 1/4 tuition scholarship?  No way.

[4everwarriors]

Does a separate locker room/shower have to be erected for these folks, hey?

[Tugg Speedman]

For a 1/4 tuition scholarship?  No way.

Why not?  If you have a 17-year old born male boy and the only thing standing between your family and $150,000 in athletic scholarship money is 4 words "I identify as female" isn't the money worth the short term embarrassment?

Mind you, you do not have to change a single thing.  No dressing female, hormone therapies or gender assignment surgery.  Just say the 4 words, continue living as what would be described as a normal male lifestyle and demand a tryout for the women's team.

Someone will try and abuse the system this way and until the NCAA or some ruling body comes up with a definition of "gender female" how does one stop this?  And when they do formulate a definition, the fur will fly as born females and transgender females will never agree on a definition.

We are opening a big can of worms.

[Pakuni]

Why not?  If you have a 17-year old born male boy and the only thing standing between your family and $150,000 in athletic scholarship money is 4 words "I identify as female" isn't the money worth the short term embarrassment?

Mind you, you do not have to change a single thing.  No dressing female, hormone therapies or gender assignment surgery.  Just say the 4 words, continue living as what would be described as a normal male lifestyle and demand a tryout for the women's team.

Says the guy who hasn't read the NCAA policy on this.

[Tugg Speedman]

Says the guy who hasn't read the NCAA policy on this.

Please link it here

[Pakuni]

Please link it here

Google too hard?

• A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or
Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete
on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.
• Any transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate in sex-separated sports activities in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender.
• A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related
to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.
• A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/pdf9/2375985.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=11600

In other words, the doomsday scenario you describe cannot happen under NCAA rules.

[Tugg Speedman]

Google too hard?

• A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or
Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete
on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.
• Any transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate in sex-separated sports activities in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender.
• A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related
to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.
• A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/pdf9/2375985.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=11600

In other words, the doomsday scenario you describe cannot happen under NCAA rules.

So the NCAA has defined gender female purely on the basis of taking "testosterone suppression treatment."  Do they give benchmarks?

Regarding the doomsday scenario.  Look what this guy had to do to keep his job.  People will go a long way to get in to a selective university and get it paid for.  If that means saying "I identify as female" and taking estogen supplements to "prove it" they will.

Unless they have defined metrics of "testosterone suppression treatment" it will get messy when someone tries to game the system.

Details Emerge in SAC Capital Sex Harassment Case
By Charles Gasparino
Wednesday, 10 Oct 2007 | 2:45 PM ET
http://www.cnbc.com/id/21224443

Sexual harassment cases are nothing new on Wall Street, but CNBC has uncovered new details of one of the most salacious cases to hit a big trading house in a long time.

The case involves a sexual harassment lawsuit filed by a Andrew Z. Tong, a former junior trader at SAC Capital, the powerful Greenwich, Conn., hedge fund, against one of SAC’s top producers, a trader named Ping Jiang.

A New York State judge has sealed the case and sent the lawsuit into arbitration, where both sides would battle it out in private. He even cancelled oral arguments that were scheduled for Thursday following an appeal by Tong’s lawyers, who want the case to remain in state court.

The judge said he sealed the details of Tong’s allegations contained in the lawsuit because it is not in the public interest to disclose the salacious nature of the complaints. CNBC has learned the suit includes the following allegations made by Tong against Jiang:

* After being hired at SAC, Tong alleges that Jiang came to him and told him he had a trading method in which his traders must not be too aggressive; that traders must be more effeminate and to do so, he directed Tong to begin taking female hormones.

* Tong says he then took the female hormones that he bought on the black market.

* Tong then alleges he suffered emotional and physical distress. The hormones, he says, caused him to begin wearing women's clothes. He also could not perform sexually with his wife, who wanted to have a baby.

* Tong says the sexual harassment included sexual relations between the two men.

Tong's attorney had no comment.

SAC Capital and Jiang vehemently denying the charges, saying in a statement that: “SAC conducted a thorough investigation and found these scurrilous accusations to be false. We will vigorously defend ourselves and are confident that these claims will be swiftly rejected in arbitration.”

Tong was terminated by SAC Capital in April 2006 after working there less than a year. SAC, according to people close to the firm, say he was fired for cause. Tong, according to others, claim he was forced out of the firm.

[Pakuni]

Unless they have defined metrics of "testosterone suppression treatment" it will get messy when someone tries to game the system.

Uhhh ... no. Until shown otherwise, I'll stand by my belief that people who identify as male aren't going to start undergoing hormone suppression therapy for the sole purpose that it might land a one-year athletic scholarship.

As for your Wall Street case .... interesting, if that's your thing, but wholly irrelevant to this discussion and your initial claims.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

http://youtu.be/QPxpbWdfirE

[Tugg Speedman]

Uhhh ... no. Until shown otherwise, I'll stand by my belief that people who identify as male aren't going to start undergoing hormone suppression therapy for the sole purpose that it might land a one-year athletic scholarship.

As for your Wall Street case .... interesting, if that's your thing, but wholly irrelevant to this discussion and your initial claims.

If I'm reading this correctly, their is no case (yet) of a born male transgender to female competing on a female team.  The case above, as with the others, are born female transgender to male continuing to compete on the female team.

A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.

You could probably compete on the men's team as a straight women if you were good enough.  This rule almost seems unnecessary.

Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug that both the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the NCAA test for.  Do transgenders get an exemption for these tests?

[Benny B]

Strip away the outer coating for a second... the whole idea that women can compete on men's teams but men can't compete on women's team essentially implies that men are better than women (as athletes).

It seems to me that the NCAA has gone to great lengths here to perpetuate this implication by creating rules that will only benefit a handful of athletes.