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Author Topic: Marquette University honors ’70s cop-killer Assata Shakur with mural  (Read 109789 times)

GGGG

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I'm not very confident in your last sentence there:  http://academeblog.org/2015/02/04/marquette-to-fire-john-mcadams-for-his-blog/

What....A blog written in association with the official magazine of the AAUP comes out in favor of a fired professor???

SHOCKING!!!!

Tugg Speedman

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What....A blog written in association with the official magazine of the AAUP comes out in favor of a fired professor???

SHOCKING!!!!

Does this mean you are going to ignore its arguments because you think the source has a conflict of interest?


Ellenson Guerrero

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About as shocking as a university claiming that a professor's firing was not a byproduct of his unsavory political views, but rather due to the fact that he publicly criticized a graduate student's teaching practices.  
"What we take for-granted, others pray for..." - Brent Williams 3/30/14

GGGG

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About as shocking as a university claiming that a professor's firing was not a byproduct of his unsavory political views, but rather due to the fact that he publicly criticized a graduate student's teaching practices.   


Again, keep ignoring that many other Marquette professors share his political views - and have not been fired.

But only one...ONE...has called out students in his blog after being warned about not doing so.

Pretty easy to see who the outlier is.

Ellenson Guerrero

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Again, keep ignoring that many other Marquette professors share his political views - and have not been fired.

But only one...ONE...has called out students in his blog after being warned about not doing so.

Pretty easy to see who the outlier is.

This does not prove the point you want it to.  The fact that Marquette hasn't fired every conservative on campus does not justify firing the one conservative who is particularly vocal.

You think naming a TA on a blog should be grounds for firing a tenured professor; I don't.  You've accepted the university's version of the story; I don't. 
"What we take for-granted, others pray for..." - Brent Williams 3/30/14

brandx

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You think naming a TA on a blog should be grounds for firing a tenured professor; I don't.  You've accepted the university's version of the story; I don't. 

It's easiest to make an argument when you just ignore facts.

The issue isn't naming a TA. It is repeatedly outing students and putting them in a position to be publicly scorned and threatened by the right. It is outing students after being previously reprimanded for outing students.

If you want to make the argument that faculty should be able to hold students up to public ridicule whenever they like, then make that argument. Otherwise, arguing for a version of your facts is pointless.

Ellenson Guerrero

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It's easiest to make an argument when you just ignore facts.

The issue isn't naming a TA. It is repeatedly outing students and putting them in a position to be publicly scorned and threatened by the right. It is outing students after being previously reprimanded for outing students.

If you want to make the argument that faculty should be able to hold students up to public ridicule whenever they like, then make that argument. Otherwise, arguing for a version of your facts is pointless.

I don't believe naming the instructor of a class whose instruction you are criticizing should be grounds for a tenured professors' firing, regardless of whether the professor had been previously warned about mentioning the names of undergrads. 
"What we take for-granted, others pray for..." - Brent Williams 3/30/14

PBRme

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Isn't there a McAdams Topic thread already
Peace, Love, and Rye Whiskey...May your life and your glass always be full

Tugg Speedman

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I don't believe naming the instructor of a class whose instruction you are criticizing should be grounds for a tenured professors' firing, regardless of whether the professor had been previously warned about mentioning the names of undergrads. 

And he is naming an instructor and class that he is not directly involved in.  So he is not relying on his direct University position for this information.  In other words, he is being fired for engaging in gossip, just like everyone else does.

GGGG

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Does this mean you are going to ignore its arguments because you think the source has a conflict of interest?


We have addressed these arguments before, but I will touch on them one last time.

From the blog:

"Tolerance requires that a university not fire professors for their expression. Marquette is perfectly free to condemn McAdams for an alleged breach of civility, but not to punish him."

This is an absolutely moronic statement.  If you can be "condemned" for something, you certainly can be "punished" for it as well.  This the AAUP trying to have it both ways.  "Hey you have to be civil to one another, but if you aren't, don't worry about it because you can't be punished."

That is false.  Professors can (and should) face disciplinary action up to, and including, termination should they repeatedly act in a manner that is inappropriate for anyone else at the institution.

GGGG

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This does not prove the point you want it to.  The fact that Marquette hasn't fired every conservative on campus does not justify firing the one conservative who is particularly vocal.

You think naming a TA on a blog should be grounds for firing a tenured professor; I don't.  You've accepted the university's version of the story; I don't. 


I don't believe naming the instructor of a class whose instruction you are criticizing should be grounds for a tenured professors' firing, regardless of whether the professor had been previously warned about mentioning the names of undergrads. 


So what exactly do you believe then?

Do you believe the University's story that she was fired for mentioning the name of a student in his blog, but the University made the wrong decision?  Or was this just a convenient excuse for firing an outspoken conservative professor?

It can't be both.  The former I can understand because you are simply saying the level of punishment was too harsh.  The latter means a level of maliciousness that would be hard for me to believe.

Pakuni

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And he is naming an instructor and class that he is not directly involved in.  So he is not relying on his direct University position for this information.  In other words, he is being fired for engaging in gossip, just like everyone else does.

So gossiping is now an academic pursuit, deserving of protection under the guise of academic freedom?

brandx

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And he is naming an instructor and class that he is not directly involved in.  So he is not relying on his direct University position for this information.  In other words, he is being fired for engaging in gossip, just like everyone else does.

Calling her an instructor still does not carry any weight except to those trying to make a point. She was a student at MU.

Tugg Speedman

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So gossiping is now an academic pursuit, deserving of protection under the guise of academic freedom?

No, but gossiping it not something you lose tenure and get fired over.

Ellenson Guerrero

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So what exactly do you believe then?

Do you believe the University's story that she was fired for mentioning the name of a student in his blog, but the University made the wrong decision?  Or was this just a convenient excuse for firing an outspoken conservative professor?

It can't be both.  The former I can understand because you are simply saying the level of punishment was too harsh.  The latter means a level of maliciousness that would be hard for me to believe.

I think McAdams was fired because the administration wanted to prove its bona fides to the LGBT community following the dean hiring fiasco.  That is the only way it makes any sense to me. 
"What we take for-granted, others pray for..." - Brent Williams 3/30/14

Eldon

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We have addressed these arguments before, but I will touch on them one last time.

From the blog:

"Tolerance requires that a university not fire professors for their expression. Marquette is perfectly free to condemn McAdams for an alleged breach of civility, but not to punish him."

This is an absolutely moronic statement.  If you can be "condemned" for something, you certainly can be "punished" for it as well.  This the AAUP trying to have it both ways.  "Hey you have to be civil to one another, but if you aren't, don't worry about it because you can't be punished."

That is false.  Professors can (and should) face disciplinary action up to, and including, termination should they repeatedly act in a manner that is inappropriate for anyone else at the institution.

It's not just the AAUP.  Universities do this all the time.

Duke poli sci professor says some racist stuff, comparing Asians to Blacks.  Duke PR person: "The comments were noxious, offensive, and have no place in civil discourse,"

http://abc11.com/news/duke-professor-makes-controversial-comments-about-race/726470/

Incoming BU sociology professor says white males are *the* problem in universities.  BU president: "We are disappointed and concerned by statements that reduce individuals to stereotypes on the basis of a broad category such as sex, race, or ethnicity. I believe Dr. Grundy's remarks fit this characterization."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/living/feat-boston-university-saida-grundy-race-tweets/

Condemning comments without firing the professor is a way to distance the institution from the content while still respecting academic freedom.  I see this somewhat analogous to the ACLU defending the Westboro Baptist Church's freedom to assemble, despite not agreeing with what goes on when they assemble.  Trying to have it both ways?  I mean, I guess...

GGGG

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I think McAdams was fired because the administration wanted to prove its bona fides to the LGBT community following the dean hiring fiasco.  That is the only way it makes any sense to me. 

See that makes no sense to me. And I guess I will leave it at that.

Pakuni

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It's not just the AAUP.  Universities do this all the time.

Duke poli sci professor says some racist stuff, comparing Asians to Blacks.  Duke PR person: "The comments were noxious, offensive, and have no place in civil discourse,"

http://abc11.com/news/duke-professor-makes-controversial-comments-about-race/726470/

Incoming BU sociology professor says white males are *the* problem in universities.  BU president: "We are disappointed and concerned by statements that reduce individuals to stereotypes on the basis of a broad category such as sex, race, or ethnicity. I believe Dr. Grundy's remarks fit this characterization."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/living/feat-boston-university-saida-grundy-race-tweets/

Condemning comments without firing the professor is a way to distance the institution from the content while still respecting academic freedom.  I see this somewhat analogous to the ACLU defending the Westboro Baptist Church's freedom to assemble, despite not agreeing with what goes on when they assemble.  Trying to have it both ways?  I mean, I guess...

What some seem to be missing, over and over again, is that McAdams isn't be fired for his comments. He's being fired for publicly holding up a student for scorn and ridicule (intentionally), not to mention threats (i would think unintentionally).

That said, a simple Google search can produce numerous cases of professors being disciplined, and even losing their jobs, over comments made to and about students, or just comments in general.
Like these:

http://www.universityherald.com/articles/4451/20130905/michigan-state-university-suspends-prof-william-penn-anti-republican-rant.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/07/steven-salaita-university-of-illinois-fired_n_5658806.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/21/university-florida-professor-fired-comments-latin-women/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/18/university-oregon-teacher-fired-after-threatening-student-protesters-in-bizarre/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/us/24churchill.html?_r=0

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/professor_fired_over_va_tech_discussiondemonstration/

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2012/01/02/harvard_professor_fired_over_column_slams_critics/

It's fine to argue, if it's what you believe, that McAdams' punishment was too harsh, but let's not act as if Marquette is doing something terribly  unheard of here.


GGGG

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It's not just the AAUP.  Universities do this all the time.

Duke poli sci professor says some racist stuff, comparing Asians to Blacks.  Duke PR person: "The comments were noxious, offensive, and have no place in civil discourse,"

http://abc11.com/news/duke-professor-makes-controversial-comments-about-race/726470/

Incoming BU sociology professor says white males are *the* problem in universities.  BU president: "We are disappointed and concerned by statements that reduce individuals to stereotypes on the basis of a broad category such as sex, race, or ethnicity. I believe Dr. Grundy's remarks fit this characterization."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/living/feat-boston-university-saida-grundy-race-tweets/

Condemning comments without firing the professor is a way to distance the institution from the content while still respecting academic freedom.  I see this somewhat analogous to the ACLU defending the Westboro Baptist Church's freedom to assemble, despite not agreeing with what goes on when they assemble.  Trying to have it both ways?  I mean, I guess...

I didn't say they *had* to be punished.  I said they *can* be punished.


What some seem to be missing, over and over again, is that McAdams isn't be fired for his comments. He's being fired for publicly holding up a student for scorn and ridicule (intentionally), not to mention threats (i would think unintentionally).

That said, a simple Google search can produce numerous cases of professors being disciplined, and even losing their jobs, over comments made to and about students, or just comments in general.
Like these:

http://www.universityherald.com/articles/4451/20130905/michigan-state-university-suspends-prof-william-penn-anti-republican-rant.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/07/steven-salaita-university-of-illinois-fired_n_5658806.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/21/university-florida-professor-fired-comments-latin-women/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/18/university-oregon-teacher-fired-after-threatening-student-protesters-in-bizarre/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/us/24churchill.html?_r=0

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/professor_fired_over_va_tech_discussiondemonstration/

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2012/01/02/harvard_professor_fired_over_column_slams_critics/

It's fine to argue, if it's what you believe, that McAdams' punishment was too harsh, but let's not act as if Marquette is doing something terribly  unheard of here.


Bingo.

Benny B

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/marquette-faculty-criticize-action-on-assata-shakur-mural-b99508152z1-305182641.html

Has anyone seen the actual letters sent to the administration?  There's text on pg. 13 of this thread of two separate letters, but I'm curious as to what was actually sent, and whether 60 faculty and staff actually signed the letter.  I figured you could probably get a dozen signatures across the faculty, but 60 seems like a lot.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Eldon

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/marquette-faculty-criticize-action-on-assata-shakur-mural-b99508152z1-305182641.html

Has anyone seen the actual letters sent to the administration?  There's text on pg. 13 of this thread of two separate letters, but I'm curious as to what was actually sent, and whether 60 faculty and staff actually signed the letter.  I figured you could probably get a dozen signatures across the faculty, but 60 seems like a lot.

Back of the envelope.  Suppose that there are 10 faculty who signed the letter from 6 departments (history, poli sci, philosophy, sociology, psychology, and hodge podge X studies profs).  Sounds about right.

warriorchick

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/marquette-faculty-criticize-action-on-assata-shakur-mural-b99508152z1-305182641.html

Has anyone seen the actual letters sent to the administration?  There's text on pg. 13 of this thread of two separate letters, but I'm curious as to what was actually sent, and whether 60 faculty and staff actually signed the letter.  I figured you could probably get a dozen signatures across the faculty, but 60 seems like a lot.
Back of the envelope.  Suppose that there are 10 faculty who signed the letter from 6 departments (history, poli sci, philosophy, sociology, psychology, and hodge podge X studies profs).  Sounds about right.

And are they all tenured professors?  Adjuncts? If a TA signed it, does that count?

Have some patience, FFS.

GGGG

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http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/marquette-faculty-criticize-action-on-assata-shakur-mural-b99508152z1-305182641.html

Has anyone seen the actual letters sent to the administration?  There's text on pg. 13 of this thread of two separate letters, but I'm curious as to what was actually sent, and whether 60 faculty and staff actually signed the letter.  I figured you could probably get a dozen signatures across the faculty, but 60 seems like a lot.

Marquette has 700 full time tenure track faculty members.  500 part time.  Is 60 a lot in that context?

StillAWarrior

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Marquette has 700 full time tenure track faculty members.  500 part time.  Is 60 a lot in that context?

Give me a sec...I'm coming up with 5.00, repeating of course, percentage of faculty members that signed the letter.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

Benny B

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Give me a sec...I'm coming up with 5.00, repeating of course, percentage of faculty members that signed the letter.

Well... that's a lot better than we usually do.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

 

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