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Author Topic: Is This An Option?  (Read 10745 times)

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2015, 03:33:53 PM »
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? In todays society (especially assault) it seems you get treated like a criminal until you prove yourself innocent. Or in about 70% of these cases even after.

I can guarantee you this is false. We have a society that puts victims of sexual assault on trial, rather than the accused. Not proven guilty and innocent are not the same thing. Fortunately, in campus conduct cases, they don't use this standard. They use a "preponderance of the evidence" standard meaning that the panel only needs to be 51% sure the accused committed the crime.
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jesmu84

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2015, 05:06:34 PM »
+1

We have 10 players right now.  5 freshman.  The stud recruit has his hand in a cast and the starting center has his arm in a sling.

If we don't pickup more bodies, you're hoping a lot of things to go right ... No injuries, no down years, no defections.  Asking for that is like asking for an inside straight.  If not, it's like last year all over again, in terms of bodies  (but better quality).  So yes, getting bodies for this November has to be the highest priority.

And Fear ... Be careful of the "miller/Lee or bust" comment.  I tried to make the same point yesterday and got ripped over 4 pages.  So mad at that mere suggestion that  posters are still ripping me above.  

This place loves to ignore the message and shoot the messenger.



No. You tried to subtly imply that our coaching staff was either ignorant or incompetent when it came to the recruitment of those two players. Of course, you made those claims based on almost zero information.

GGGG

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2015, 07:05:58 PM »
I certainly get the feeling that it was Lee/Miller or bust.  The staff seems to be out recruiting 16/17 (see Hauser, et al) guys right now.  That said, I can't imagine going into the next season with the numbers that we have right now.


They are recruiting 16/17 guys right now because its is the last open evaluation period before July.


GGGG

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2015, 07:07:17 PM »
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? In todays society (especially assault) it seems you get treated like a criminal until you prove yourself innocent. Or in about 70% of these cases even after.


Playing basketball at Marquette isn't a fundamental right. 

Dawson Rental

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2015, 07:27:12 AM »
His 3 pt shooting would be nice though.

But MU is no longer a program willing to chance whoring itself.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 07:40:34 AM by LittleWade »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2015, 07:39:34 AM »
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? In todays society (especially assault) it seems you get treated like a criminal until you prove yourself innocent. Or in about 70% of these cases even after.

When you're a representative of a University - particularly a private, faith based one - "not yet indicted" or "hasn't been convicted" just doesn't cut it.  Also, there is a long history of problems for Duke's program for this guy, and he didn't shape up.  It appears that he will get his degree this summer, so he's got that.  He probably will get an offer from some program at a school foolish enough to chance its reputation.  If not he still has professional options, should he desire to continue with basketball - the D League, Europe, or China.  His life options have narrowed somewhat, but his life hasn't been derailed by any means.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Loose Cannon

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2015, 08:53:43 AM »
When you're a representative of a University - particularly a private, faith based one - "not yet indicted" or "hasn't been convicted" just doesn't cut it.  Also, there is a long history of problems for Duke's program for this guy, and he didn't shape up.  It appears that he will get his degree this summer, so he's got that.  He probably will get an offer from some program at a school foolish enough to chance its reputation.  If not he still has professional options, should he desire to continue with basketball - the D League, Europe, or China.  His life options have narrowed somewhat, but his life hasn't been derailed by any means.



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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2015, 07:41:02 AM »
I've never done anything like this in my life'

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12787744/rasheed-sulaimon-denies-assault-says-dismissal-was-separate-matter

Jeff Goodman, ESPN Insider

Former Duke guard Rasheed Sulaimon denied that he had committed a sexual assault and said that his dismissal from the Blue Devils in January was for a separate matter.

"Me being dismissed from the team had nothing to do with this allegation," Sulaimon said in his first public comments since being dismissed by coach Mike Krzyzewski. He did not specify what the reason was, though he said he was frustrated and could have handled the situation better.

"I have never sexually assaulted, not only anyone on the Duke campus, but anyone period," he said. "It's not in my nature at all. I have great respect for the role of women in society. I would never demean or do anything to a woman in this manner. No, I've never done anything like this in my life."

The 6-foot-4 Sulaimon, a McDonald's All American coming out of high school in Texas, was dismissed from the Duke team on Jan. 29. A little more than a month after Krzyzewski announced Sulaimon's departure, the Duke Chronicle released a story that detailed two separate allegations of sexual assault against Sulaimon.

The student newspaper said that the allegations occurred during Sulaimon's freshman year, and that neither female student filed a complaint through the Office of Student Conduct or took legal action through the Durham Police Department.

The student newspaper said that the allegations were brought to the attention of a team psychologist in March 2014, and that Krzyzewski and the rest of the coaching staff was made aware of the allegations later that month.

Duke athletic director Kevin White and the school released a statement on March 3, saying that any student misconduct that is brought to the attention of the coaching staff is immediately referred to the Office of Student Conduct in Student Affairs.

"These investigations are conducted thoroughly, in a timely manner, and with great care to respect the privacy and confidentiality of all students involved," White said in the statement. "Those procedures have been, and continue to be, followed by Coach Mike Krzyzewski and all members of the men's basketball program. Coach Krzyzewski and his staff understand and have fulfilled their responsibilities to the university, its students and the community. As specified by federal law and university policy, all Duke officials, including Coach Krzyzewski, are prohibited from commenting publicly on any specific individual or situation."

Duke told ESPN on Tuesday that it had no further comment on the matter.

"This allegation is just that, a charge that has no proof," Sulaimon told ESPN earlier this week. "There's no proof because I didn't sexually assault anyone."

ESPN contacted Durham police on Tuesday, and there was no report on file involving Sulaimon.

"The university investigated the sexual assault allegation, and they knew it was unsubstantiated so Coach K knew that, too, because I told him," Sulaimon said.

Sulaimon said he met with a representative of the Office of Student Conduct during the winter of his sophomore year regarding an alleged sexual assault allegation that occurred the previous year. He said he was told an investigation was ongoing, and he would have to go in front of the student board if it progressed. Sulaimon told ESPN he was never asked to appear in front of the student board, but did meet a second time in September 2014 regarding the same allegation. Sulaimon said he has never met with anyone at the Office of Student Conduct regarding a second allegation.

"This whole time I've been told about one allegation and I have no idea where the second allegation came from," Sulaimon said. "It's false. It's purely fiction [that there's even a second allegation]."

"The second meeting, after we talked, the tone was a lot lighter," Sulaimon said. "They told me to keep living my life and be a student -- and not to worry about it."

ESPN reached out to the Office of Student Conduct, but the office was unable to provide any information, citing student privacy laws.

Sulaimon was considered a possible first-round NBA draft pick, and contemplated leaving school after a freshman season in which he averaged 11.6 points. After talking to both his parents and Krzyzewski, he returned to school and his role decreased each of the next two seasons -- relegated to a reserve role after starting 33 games as a freshman. His scoring average fell to 9.9 points as a sophomore and he did not get off the bench in a huge matchup against Michigan on Dec. 3.

"I was frustrated with myself and letting myself get to the point where I didn't play in the entire game. Not just any game -- a big game," Sulaimon said. "I felt frustrated, I felt embarrassed. There was even a time when I didn't talk to my parents. I have a very good relationship with them and normally talk to them every day."

Sulaimon believes that was the beginning of the deterioration of his relationship with Krzyzewski.

"I'm a very competitive guy and I believe I should have been starting," he said. "Quite simply, I just got frustrated. In retrospect, in looking back on it, I didn't handle it well at all. My immaturity and me being frustrated with hitting adversity, I think it greatly impacted my relationship with Coach K heavily."

Sulaimon said he also considered leaving school after his sophomore season, but he spoke to his family and decided to remain in Durham.

"I wanted to be at Duke," he said. "I dreamed about it my whole life. Even though I was frustrated, I wanted to be at Duke. My parents didn't raise a quitter."

He watched as freshman Justise Winslow earned the starting spot on the wing prior to the start of this past season, and he came off the bench every game before being dismissed the day after a loss at Notre Dame.

"My frustration only grew," Sulaimon said. "I realize now I could have and should have handled things drastically different, but what's done [is] done. I have no quarrel with Coach K and I'm looking for a fresh start to finish my college career after I graduate from Duke first."

In a letter from Duke athletic director Kevin White to Sulaimon obtained by ESPN, White wrote that the school would "honor your scholarship through your graduation from Duke University." Sulaimon said he has a 3.07 grade point average, intends to take summer classes and is optimistic he will graduate in early August. Baishakhi Taylor, an assistant dean in Duke's Trinity College of Arts and Sciences, confirmed to ESPN that Sulaimon is currently enrolled in classes and in good academic standing.

He'll be able to play immediately due to the NCAA's graduate transfer rule, and Sulaimon said that he has been contacted by more than a dozen schools -- including Arizona State, Baylor, Colorado, George Washington, Houston, LSU, Maryland, Memphis, Oklahoma State, Seton Hall, SMU, Texas, Texas Southern and Texas A&M.


"I've thought about this a lot and talked about it with my family," he said. "I have aspirations to play at the next level in the NBA and I think my best chance of doing that is to first get my degree and to transfer to another school."

He currently lives with former teammates Amile Jefferson and Sean Kelly in an off-campus apartment and has access to the non-basketball facilities. Sulaimon has not seen Krzyzewski since their brief meeting on Jan. 30 in which Duke's head coach read the identical statement that went out to the media.

"Rasheed has been unable to consistently live up to the standards required to be a member of our program," Krzyzewski said in the statement. "It is a privilege to represent Duke University and with that privilege comes the responsibility to conduct oneself in a certain manner. After Rasheed repeatedly struggled to meet the necessary obligations, it became apparent that it was time to dismiss him from the program."

Sulaimon said he was stunned when Krzyzewski read the release, and was in a state of shock as he exited the office. Krzyzewski declined to speak to ESPN earlier in the week to discuss the specifics of Sulaimon's departure.

Sulaimon has texted Krzyzewski on three occasions: Easter, when the team made the Final Four and also when the team won the national title. He watched the championship game with about eight fellow Duke students in an apartment and said he was overcome with emotion while watching his former teammates celebrate after the victory.

"I was elated. Everyone was throwing popcorn and water in the air, and celebrating," he said. "I was celebrating too. I was so happy for them because I knew the type of work they put in to get to that point. At the same time, I'm not going to act like I'm not human, I cried that night. I didn't cry because I was sad or mad they won. I was 100 percent elated. Shortly after that, I had to remove myself from the crowd as they were tearing up the house. I called my dad in great tears, telling him, 'Dad, I really missed out on something, I could have been a part of something that was bigger than me, and something that could have lasted a lifetime.'"

Sulaimon told ESPN that life has returned to a sense of normalcy lately, and much of the reason is that he has not been ostracized from the Duke community. He regrets not speaking earlier and trying to clear his name.

"I was devastated. There really wasn't anything to say. There were things I had to change in my life," Sulaimon said. "I had to look in the mirror and analyze everything about my life. Encourage the good habits I had and change the bad habits I had. Just as I was coming to grips with that, I got hit with the student newspaper article. I watched in horror as my name was in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. I was shocked, I was confused, I was scared. But I've had enough time to get on my feet."

milwaukee ex-pat

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2015, 08:57:27 AM »
I can guarantee you this is false. We have a society that puts victims of sexual assault on trial, rather than the accused. Not proven guilty and innocent are not the same thing. Fortunately, in campus conduct cases, they don't use this standard. They use a "preponderance of the evidence" standard meaning that the panel only needs to be 51% sure the accused committed the crime.

This is truly pathetic I am afraid.  The exact opposite is the truth today: Duke Lacrosse where a large number of faculty came out publicly for the accuser and the players were not defended by the admin (no consequences for either when the truth came out), that poor kid at NYU where his deranged accuser gets celebrated by campus administrators, the state's US senator, UVA.  It is so short sighted to dump on due process.  It is meant to protect the innocent period, even the unpopular.  We are doomed to relearn these lessons in tragedy. 

GGGG

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2015, 04:04:31 PM »
I can guarantee you this is false. We have a society that puts victims of sexual assault on trial, rather than the accused. Not proven guilty and innocent are not the same thing. Fortunately, in campus conduct cases, they don't use this standard. They use a "preponderance of the evidence" standard meaning that the panel only needs to be 51% sure the accused committed the crime.

This is truly pathetic I am afraid.  The exact opposite is the truth today: Duke Lacrosse where a large number of faculty came out publicly for the accuser and the players were not defended by the admin (no consequences for either when the truth came out), that poor kid at NYU where his deranged accuser gets celebrated by campus administrators, the state's US senator, UVA.  It is so short sighted to dump on due process.  It is meant to protect the innocent period, even the unpopular.  We are doomed to relearn these lessons in tragedy. 


You are naming the exceptions because they are exceptions.  Most of those who commit sexual assault go unpunished.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2015, 04:23:00 PM »
This is truly pathetic I am afraid.  The exact opposite is the truth today: Duke Lacrosse where a large number of faculty came out publicly for the accuser and the players were not defended by the admin (no consequences for either when the truth came out), that poor kid at NYU where his deranged accuser gets celebrated by campus administrators, the state's US senator, UVA.  It is so short sighted to dump on due process.  It is meant to protect the innocent period, even the unpopular.  We are doomed to relearn these lessons in tragedy. 

Ah, I love when people do this. They point a few cases that were mishandled and try to claim that they are the majority. As Sultan said, these are the exceptions. They are the vast minority of cases of sexual assault.

Some numbers for you. The false reporting rate for sexual assault is 6%. That means of the hundreds of accusations of sexual assault, only 6 out of 100 fall into the category you are describing. 6% might seem like a lot, but that is actually lower than the rate for theft, assault, and several other crimes. Yet no one questions when a person accuses another of stealing.

It is estimated that anywhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college aged women will be the victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault before they graduate. 1 in 3 college aged women will experience some sort of violence before the graduate. 1 in 12 men will be the victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault before they graduate. Despite this, only 2 out of every 100 perpetrators serve jail time. Currently, about 68% of sexual assaults go unreported. Of that 68%, less than a third ever make it trial. Of those that make it to trial, less than half are convicted.

Due process is important in a legal system. I will always fight for that. But an unintentional consequence is that it protects sexual abusers and abuses sexual assault victims. I don't know how to fix it. I have a few ideas, but they are not fully formed. I am thankful that Universities, educational entities where it is a privledge to attend, not a right, are allowed to use a lower standard of evidence when judging these cases. Even with this advantage, the system still favors the abusers over the abused. Lots of good work to be done in this area.
TAMU

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milwaukee ex-pat

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2015, 06:55:39 PM »
It is estimated that anywhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college aged women will be the victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault before they graduate. 1 in 3 college aged women will experience some sort of violence before the graduate. 1 in 12 men will be the victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault before they graduate. Despite this, only 2 out of every 100 perpetrators serve jail time. Currently, about 68% of sexual assaults go unreported. Of that 68%, less than a third ever make it trial. Of those that make it to trial, less than half are convicted.

Nonsense.  This is the worst sort type of pseudo science.  This is all self reported data by definition - in he said /she said cases there is no way to have definitive conclusions about guilt.  Please see this article from Slate:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

The idea that I am mentioning exceptions is irrelevant.  In each of these "exceptions" the point is a witch hunt ensued and the perps suffered no consequences what so ever for making wildly inaccurate accusations and in the case of NYU are still making them.  When societal norms adjust so that  stereotypes allow for the infliction of oppression and injustice on the innocent and that is not considered to be horribly wrong much worse abuse will follow.  This is not new phenomenon - quite the opposite over the course of history.  Due process protecting the innocent is the exception and something more easily lost that I think is being recognized here. The truth matters. Due process always matters no matter if in the law or in the collegiate atmosphere where idiotic political correctness can tyrannize the outgroup. 

What is mildly amusing is this moral preening on the abuse of women suffering "unwanted sexual advances" that can be interpreted as assault in today's lingo when feelings are hurt infantalizes women in the same way the patriarchal tradition did pre-women's lib. 

GGGG

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2015, 07:27:13 PM »
It is estimated that anywhere between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college aged women will be the victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault before they graduate. 1 in 3 college aged women will experience some sort of violence before the graduate. 1 in 12 men will be the victim of an attempted or completed sexual assault before they graduate. Despite this, only 2 out of every 100 perpetrators serve jail time. Currently, about 68% of sexual assaults go unreported. Of that 68%, less than a third ever make it trial. Of those that make it to trial, less than half are convicted.

Nonsense.  This is the worst sort type of pseudo science.  This is all self reported data by definition - in he said /she said cases there is no way to have definitive conclusions about guilt.  Please see this article from Slate:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html


I agree with this article's premise that on-campus rape's should be investigated by the proper authorities and not by campus officials.  But again, you keep bringing up exceptions.  But the very article you link above says that sexual assaults on college campuses have been, and remain a problem.

And all your pontificating isn't going to change that.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Is This An Option?
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2015, 11:18:18 PM »
Nonsense.  This is the worst sort type of pseudo science.  This is all self reported data by definition - in he said /she said cases there is no way to have definitive conclusions about guilt.  Please see this article from Slate:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

The idea that I am mentioning exceptions is irrelevant.  In each of these "exceptions" the point is a witch hunt ensued and the perps suffered no consequences what so ever for making wildly inaccurate accusations and in the case of NYU are still making them.  When societal norms adjust so that  stereotypes allow for the infliction of oppression and injustice on the innocent and that is not considered to be horribly wrong much worse abuse will follow.  This is not new phenomenon - quite the opposite over the course of history.  Due process protecting the innocent is the exception and something more easily lost that I think is being recognized here. The truth matters. Due process always matters no matter if in the law or in the collegiate atmosphere where idiotic political correctness can tyrannize the outgroup. 

What is mildly amusing is this moral preening on the abuse of women suffering "unwanted sexual advances" that can be interpreted as assault in today's lingo when feelings are hurt infantalizes women in the same way the patriarchal tradition did pre-women's lib. 

Once again, you have provided examples of exceptions. Not the rule. The fact is that only 6% of sexual assault accusations are false. I feel terrible for those 6% who are falsely accused. But the reality is, that of the 6% almost none are brought to trial and even fewer are convicted. So pardon me if my outrage is more focused on the 94% who are correctly accused, the majority of whom never get taken to trial, much less convicted.

The fact that you label data that doesn't support your hypothesis as "psuedo science" is proof of your bias. Someone is telling you that 1 in 5 women on college campuses are being assaulted. 1 in 5. Rather than being outraged, or heartbroken, or even concerned, you decide to discredit and oppress. You say "was it really sexual assault?" Imagine if  your wife, your daughter, your sister, or your mother told a campus official, "I was just raped." Imagine how awful it would be to hear back "were you really raped? Or was it just a bad hook up?"

Unfortunately, you are not alone. There is a real culture in our country that automatically questions and discredits any woman who dare make an accusation of sexual assault. That culture, combined with the fact that our legal system makes it almost impossible for someone to be convicted of sexual assault, is exactly why sexual assault is the most under reported crime in the USA. What's the point? All that's going to happen is that the victim will get ridiculed and the accused will more than likely never be brought to justice.

Despite all this, I do support due process in our legal system. I think it is flawed on this issue, but with no viable solution, I don't have a right to speak against it.

But university conduct processes are not legal systems. They are academic. Due process is lower than a courtroom but so is the severity of the possible sanctions. Any perceived advantage that is given to the accuser is also given to the accused. Each party has the same rights. I am thankful for the lower standard of evidence. If universities were required to use "beyond a reasonable doubt" than every rapist, thief, and thug would be able to stay on campus. Again, imagine if your daughter or sister were assaulted. Using a higher standard of evidence would mean that she could potentially have to see her attacker every day in her college career. She may even be re-victimized again. I would rather run the risk of unjustly punishing a student than putting a victim through that.

So go ahead, continue to be the champion for the vast minority of accused who are inconvenienced by a false accusation. I will continue to fight for the thousands of victims who have had their lives destroyed by a sexual assault.

As for your last line, you are either being purposefully dull or are ignorant on this entire topics. No one is attempting to label "unwanted sexual advances" as an assault. Unless your definition of unwanted sexual advances is more physical than you are implying.
TAMU

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