Why I'm Concerned About Wojo/Coaching Staff

[BallBoy]

Let me clarify banking schollies

Keeping one in case a Luke Fischer quality type mid-season transfer pops up is fine.

Regarding the other two.  Take a grad transfer.  They are a one year rental.  They will be better than walk-ons to fill out the roster.  Their is little to no downside in a one-year rental.

So banking two of the three instead of getting a grad transfer is a failure.

I think he tried to get two grad transfers.  He thought there were two that would make the team better they went elsewhere. He can't then go to two random guys and say "I don't see you playing but would you like to join the team". He got one of the best last year.

Grad transfer are going to go where there is playing time not to be a backup in case someone gets hurt.

[hashtagspecialdelivery]

Butler NBA star,Hayward first round draft choice, Buycks finsihed this season on NBA team plus DJO is not a team that did not have talent. It lacked size and experience. Having said that I was not impressed with Wojo's coaching last year. However, he was a rookie coach and the players had to adjust to his style.

There certainly wasn't a Lazar caliber player on this past year's team as an upperclassmen.  However, just because DJO, Buycks went on to get a cup of coffee in the league, they both were in their 1st year of D-1 ball - DJO a sophomore and Buycks a Junior.  Jimmy of course was in his 2nd year of D-1 ball.  That midgets team was tiny, and young.  Last season we had Duane turn in a solid Red Shirt freshman year.  Had Carlino a 5th year senior.  Had a Top 50 big man in Luke in his sophomore year.  Returned an All-Big East Freshman in Deonte Burton.

We missed the NIT last season, and finished with our worst record in 50 years.  In the watered down Big East.  4 players have transferred out of the program in the last 12 months.  We have 3 open scholarships.  All that said, I'm excited about the recruits we have coming in  - yet we need to show some progress on the court and win this season at a decent clip for Wojo to continue to be able to be effective on the recruiting trail.

[GGGG]

There certainly wasn't a Lazar caliber player on this past year's team as an upperclassmen.  However, just because DJO, Buycks went on to get a cup of coffee in the league, they both were in their 1st year of D-1 ball - DJO a sophomore and Buycks a Junior.  Jimmy of course was in his 2nd year of D-1 ball.  That midgets team was tiny, and young.  Last season we had Duane turn in a solid Red Shirt freshman year.  Had Carlino a 5th year senior.  Had a Top 50 big man in Luke in his sophomore year.  Returned an All-Big East Freshman in Deonte Burton.

We missed the NIT last season, and finished with our worst record in 50 years.  In the watered down Big East.  4 players have transferred out of the program in the last 12 months.  We have 3 open scholarships.  All that said, I'm excited about the recruits we have coming in  - yet we need to show some progress on the court and win this season at a decent clip for Wojo to continue to be able to be effective on the recruiting trail.

Again, what would you have done differently?

[bilsu]

Let me clarify banking schollies

Keeping one in case a Luke Fischer quality type mid-season transfer pops up is fine.

Regarding the other two.  Take a grad transfer.  They are a one year rental.  They will be better than walk-ons to fill out the roster.  Their is little to no downside in a one-year rental.

So banking two of the three instead of getting a grad transfer is a failure.

No it is not. A failure is wasting a scholarship on a player that will not help next year or in the the future. Buzz was good at filing scholarships that ended up being players that transferred out. Wojo said last year he would not just take a body. I think that is good strategy and him changing his mind would be a signal that he does not believe he will recruit well for 2016. We have 10 scholarship players and three walkons, which is more than enough to practive, Generally only 8 players are going to play significant minutes. No need to recruit a player now that has no chance of cracking the top 8.  I would take a one year transfer, but I agree a player who is not going to start is not likely to transfer to MU.

[Tugg Speedman]

No it is not. A failure is wasting a scholarship on a player that will not help next year or in the the future. Buzz was good at filing scholarships that ended up being players that transferred out. Wojo said last year he would not just take a body. I think that is good strategy and him changing his mind would be a signal that he does not believe he will recruit well for 2016. We have 10 scholarship players and three walkons, which is more than enough to practive, Generally only 8 players are going to play significant minutes. No need to recruit a player now that has no chance of cracking the top 8.  I would take a one year transfer, but I agree a player who is not going to start is not likely to transfer to MU.

Yes only 8 play and in theory we have 8 good players now.  But that assumes no one has an off year, no one gets hurt (remember that Henry has a cast on his hand and Luke has his arm in a sling), no one gets sick (flu) during an important stretch next winter and no one transfers.  It's a big ask to hope none of those happen all next year.

People around like to say "next Man up."  There is no next man up, it's an empty chair.  Or more to the point it was Taylor, Burton and Noskawiak.  They need to be replaced.  Another phrase used around here is "we'll be fine."  Actually we might not be with that many open schollies unless everything goes right. 

Again that is why the optimism about landing Miller and Lee (from Big Daddy) and for them to never make it to campus for a visit is concerning.  I fear we will only have 10 next year and that will be a problem as the season unfolds.

[brewcity77]

Last year we landed Matt the last week of April. It's the first day of May. I'm not ready to panic just yet. We always knew there would be recruiting battles Wojo would lose. Don't get me wrong, I wanted Lee and Miller, but I'm just as curious to see how the staff rebounds. I think the hope was always for Duane, Luke, and Henry to be the three this team was built around. There's still time to add good pieces around them.

Lee and Miller would have made us preseason top 15. That didn't happen, and did anyone really think it would be that easy? One year in the Big East cellar and back to being a Final Four contender in year two? Let's see what the roster looks like for Italy before we write the staff off.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

No it is not. A failure is wasting a scholarship on a player that will not help next year or in the the future. Buzz was good at filing scholarships that ended up being players that transferred out. Wojo said last year he would not just take a body. I think that is good strategy and him changing his mind would be a signal that he does not believe he will recruit well for 2016. We have 10 scholarship players and three walkons, which is more than enough to practive, Generally only 8 players are going to play significant minutes. No need to recruit a player now that has no chance of cracking the top 8.  I would take a one year transfer, but I agree a player who is not going to start is not likely to transfer to MU.

Couldn't disagree more. That's not the way of college athletics these days. Use your damn scholorships. If the guy doesn't work out, so be it. Literally over 1,000 D1 players transfer every year - it's the way it works.

Fill your scholorships. I'm not advocating for Wojo to take on some guy that isn't a D1 caliber player but there are plenty of grad transfers and traditional transfers still out there that could contribute. Being em in. Last thing we need is playing w 6 scholorship players again.

[The Process]

I'm confused. When did Scoop become an affiliate of BleacherReport?

[TedBaxter]

Couldn't disagree more. That's not the way of college athletics these days. Use your damn scholorships. If the guy doesn't work out, so be it. Literally over 1,000 D1 players transfer every year - it's the way it works.

Fill your scholorships. I'm not advocating for Wojo to take on some guy that isn't a D1 caliber player but there are plenty of grad transfers and traditional transfers still out there that could contribute. Being em in. Last thing we need is playing w 6 scholorship players again.

How many scholarships do NCAA D1 schools get? 13

How many freshman through juniors will MU have next year if they don't hand out another scholarship to a non grad transfer? 10

That leaves 3 scholarships for the 2016 class and if Marquette gets a transfer like Andrew Rowsey who visits this week(?), that leaves 2 for the 2016 class.

If there aren't any grad transfers or JUCO's who Wojo feels can make the team better after Lee and Miller, why should he hand out a scholarship?

Others have said it here.  Don't give out scholarships just to give out scholarships.

[Tugg Speedman]

How many scholarships do NCAA D1 schools get? 13

How many freshman through juniors will MU have next year if they don't hand out another scholarship to a non grad transfer? 10

That leaves 3 scholarships for the 2016 class and if Marquette gets a transfer like Andrew Rowsey who visits this week(?), that leaves 2 for the 2016 class.

If there aren't any grad transfers or JUCO's who Wojo feels can make the team better after Lee and Miller, why should he hand out a scholarship?

Others have said it here.  Don't give out scholarships just to give out scholarships.

And when we are down to six functioning players next year, like we were at one point last season, remember this post.

Again Grad transfers are eligible next year and do not prevent recruiting 2016 freshman. 

Fill out the roster (again with Grad transfers) as best you can because you never know.  Do not roll the dice with 10 players.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

And when we are down to six functioning players next year, like we were at one point last season, remember this post.

Again Grad transfers are eligible next year and do not prevent recruiting 2016 freshman. 

Fill out the roster (again with Grad transfers) as best you can because you never know.  Do not roll the dice with 10 players.

Exactly.

[bilsu]

And when we are down to six functioning players next year, like we were at one point last season, remember this post.

Again Grad transfers are eligible next year and do not prevent recruiting 2016 freshman. 

Fill out the roster (again with Grad transfers) as best you can because you never know.  Do not roll the dice with 10 players.

If we end up with 6 functioning players next year and it is partly do to two players transferring at mid-season than Wojo should be fired. Injuries are a crap shoot, but players transferring indicate a problem. That problem includes recruiting players that are not good enough to play or do not fit your system. The idea of filling the scholarships and then cutting players if they do not work does not sit well with me. Please no more transfers.

[TedBaxter]

And when we are down to six functioning players next year, like we were at one point last season, remember this post.

Again Grad transfers are eligible next year and do not prevent recruiting 2016 freshman.  

Fill out the roster (again with Grad transfers) as best you can because you never know.  Do not roll the dice with 10 players.

Grad transfers want to go somewhere where they can start or at least play major minutes.  Other than Lee, Miller and maybe a couple other frontcourt players, give me some names and after that, tell me how they would fit and better yet, do they want to come to a team coming off of the season they came off of without any seniors when they can go somewhere and play for an NCAA berth with an experienced team?

Look at Wisconsin this past year.  They had 12 on scholarship and redshirted Happ and Hill giving them 10 scholarship players available.  The 10th player, Riley Dearring, played a total of 39 minutes all year.

[Tugg Speedman]

Grad transfers want to go somewhere where they can start or at least play major minutes.  Other than Lee, Miller and maybe a couple other frontcourt players, give me some names and after that, tell me how they would fit.

Look at Wisconsin this past year.  They had 12 on scholarship and redshirted Happ and Hill giving them 10 scholarship players available.  The 10th player, Riley Dearring, played a total of 39 minutes all year.

Red-shirting is voluntary.  You do not formally declare it ahead of time.  You hold out a player all year and then apply for the extra year after the season is over.

So, if Bucky had any kind of meaningful injury, they could have, at any moment, dressed Happ or Hill thus burning their red-shirt ability and immediately give them a decent replacement.  They did not have any meaningful injuries so it was not necessary.  

Similarly in Big Daddy's post (which start this thread) they said if they get two decent grad transfers they would consider red-shirting one or two of the five incoming Freshman.  So they would still dress 10.  This also makes sense because if their is an injury or transfer they could "un red-shirt" that freshman at any time and play them.

You cannot play an empty seat.  Their is no next man up.

[moomoo]

Grad transfers want to go somewhere where they can start or at least play major minutes.  Other than Lee, Miller and maybe a couple other frontcourt players, give me some names and after that, tell me how they would fit and better yet, do they want to come to a team coming off of the season they came off of without any seniors when they can go somewhere and play for an NCAA berth with an experienced team?

Look at Wisconsin this past year.  They had 12 on scholarship and redshirted Happ and Hill giving them 10 scholarship players available.  The 10th player, Riley Dearring, played a total of 39 minutes all year.

Hi Ted,

Tomacz Gielo would fit perfectly. 6-9, 225 athletic power forward. He also has a sweet stroke from 3. We get him, then we have four bigs 6-9 and up, and a three point threat.

This is a grad student who can make a real impact on an invigorated team, with a great pedigree, a well known coach, in a major conference.

I know I sound like I'm oversimplifying, but if we get him, he fills two holes and makes us a legit BEAST contender.

[Tugg Speedman]

Grad transfers want to go somewhere where they can start or at least play major minutes.  Other than Lee, Miller and maybe a couple other frontcourt players, give me some names and after that, tell me how they would fit and better yet, do they want to come to a team coming off of the season they came off of without any seniors when they can go somewhere and play for an NCAA berth with an experienced team?

Look at Wisconsin this past year.  They had 12 on scholarship and redshirted Happ and Hill giving them 10 scholarship players available.  The 10th player, Riley Dearring, played a total of 39 minutes all year.

People keep making that statement, and it's true.

Are we saying next year's team is too good which is why we cannot find any grad transfers?  Of course not.  Their are plenty of them out there that could come here and impact this team, or even start. 

Again, this is why I started this thread.  I fear the coaching staff was overly optimistic about Miller and Lee and lost valuable time in recruiting other grad transfers.  If I'm right about their misjudgement it will impact next season.   (Reminder, this belief is based on what Big Daddy said and the wide-spread assumption that he is connected to the program.)

[MU82]

You cannot play an empty seat.  Their is no next man up.

Also, there is no next man up.

[bilsu]

Also, there is no next man up.

I do not care about proper English on this site. However, if you assume that eight are going to get significant minutes, then we have two players to be the next man up.

[dgies9156]

I really don't want to get into a battle of words with Heisenberg, so I'll be relatively brief.

Most of us believe that Wojo has a great "start" on the recruiting battles. The incoming class for next year is fantastic. But National Champions aren't built in one year (most of the time, anyway) and no matter who we bring in, we will have weaknesses that our enemies will exploit in 2016-2017. Those weaknesses may be as simple as freshmen inexperience or as complex as injuries and lack of depth.

Damion Lee, no matter how good he is, was not going to change the fact that we have weaknesses in our team for next year. He would have offered senior leadership, but he would not have changed the fact that a good hunk of our team has a lot to learn to be great at the college level.

It's easy to forget that when the Hillbilly folded, the cupboard was bare. Our guys that left, including STjr, Dawson, Mayo and Burton, didn't fit with the new regieme. Our recruits that were highly regarded, for the most part, jumped like rats off a ship. That will be fixed but it will take time.

That's why, when I saw the headline "Why I'm Concerned About Wojo/Coaching Staff," I was thinking, "Say What?" If we're 15-15 three years from now and not been to the NCAA and not followed-up this year's class with another good one and another, then, OK. Until then, chill out.

[Tugg Speedman]

I really don't want to get into a battle of words with Heisenberg, so I'll be relatively brief.

Most of us believe that Wojo has a great "start" on the recruiting battles. The incoming class for next year is fantastic. But National Champions aren't built in one year (most of the time, anyway) and no matter who we bring in, we will have weaknesses that our enemies will exploit in 2016-2017. Those weaknesses may be as simple as freshmen inexperience or as complex as injuries and lack of depth.

Damion Lee, no matter how good he is, was not going to change the fact that we have weaknesses in our team for next year. He would have offered senior leadership, but he would not have changed the fact that a good hunk of our team has a lot to learn to be great at the college level.

It's easy to forget that when the Hillbilly folded, the cupboard was bare. Our guys that left, including STjr, Dawson, Mayo and Burton, didn't fit with the new regieme. Our recruits that were highly regarded, for the most part, jumped like rats off a ship. That will be fixed but it will take time.

That's why, when I saw the headline "Why I'm Concerned About Wojo/Coaching Staff," I was thinking, "Say What?" If we're 15-15 three years from now and not been to the NCAA and not followed-up this year's class with another good one and another, then, OK. Until then, chill out.

So we had one person (now called naginIF) attack me after admitting he did not even read what I wrote, just saw my name and started a new thread announcing I was an idiot without barely understanding the topic.  

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=47446.0

Now after 5 pages you admit you still want to fight with me based on your (inaccurate) read of the headline without actually understanding what was said here.  You already posted a complete misread of this post on the previous page and this post really has nothing to do with this topic here.

Instead of posting, if you actually read what I said you would agree 100% with me.

Here are the cliff notes ... either Big Daddy was wrong in what he wrote or the coaches misjudged Lee and Miller and that left them scrambling to fill out next year's roster with Grad transfers.  Note I said "concerned" not that they failed.  I'm only talking about next year and the ability to find one or two more Carlinos is critical to next season's success (as Carlino was critical to what little success we had last season).

I guess I should have known that everyone tries to pretend they actual think but they all really just judge the book by its cover.

[MUMonster03]

I don't care how on the inside someone says they are, or really is. Unless Wojo is 100% confirmed as the exact source of information, as in someone recording him exactly saying that what did not happen was his plan, then anything on a message board has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Here are the cliff notes ... either Big Daddy was wrong in what he wrote or the coaches misjudged Lee and Miller and that left them scrambling to fill out next year's roster with Grad transfers.  Note I said "concerned" not that they failed.  I'm only talking about next year and the ability to find one or two more Carlinos is critical to next season's success (as Carlino was critical to what little success we had last season).

Respectfully, isn't there another option?  Big Daddy was right that he was a top priority and we just lost a recruit to Louisville.  This pretty much occurs all the time in college sports, happens to us frequently with Louisville and does not point to a complete collapse in management.  We have a good class coming in - I hope for more grad transfers -- but it is premature in my opinion to paint a line on the concrete because Louisville beat us in recruiting.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

If we end up with 6 functioning players next year and it is partly do to two players transferring at mid-season than Wojo should be fired. Injuries are a crap shoot, but players transferring indicate a problem. That problem includes recruiting players that are not good enough to play or do not fit your system. The idea of filling the scholarships and then cutting players if they do not work does not sit well with me. Please no more transfers.

This paragraph just underscores that you don't understand the way things work in CBB today.  This isn't the 1980s anymore.  If kids aren't happy where they are for any number of reasons (1) playing time; 2) personal reasons; 3) dislike teammates; 4) dislike coaches; 5) dislike school, weather, city; etc, etc.), they will transfer. It IS that simple. ]

Get over transfers.  They're going to happen most years.  It is what it is.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I am confused.  I never got the impression that Lee or Miller were a #donedeal from Big Daddy's post.  Nor did I get the impression that most scoopers thought that was the case.  Most were just appreciative that BD posted some nuggets about almost every returning player, incoming player, or major recruiting target.  Some rosterbating took place but that was fantasizing about what could happen, not necessarily would happen.

Here is my interpretation of what BD said:

"Plan A is Lee and Miller"= The coaching staff's ideal a scenario (a possibility not a given)
"Plan B is either Lee or Miller"= If we can't get both, hopefully we at least we get one.
"Plan C is Jucos"=no names so I never really thought there was an ironclad plan C

"Lee plans to visit MU"=coaching staff still trying to set up visit

"Coaches confident they can get a commit if Lee visits since MU would be last"= coaches confident in their ability to close on recruits but no guarantee to get Lee or Miller...better than the alternative, which is lacking confidence...but I've seen a ton of recruits with all 5 visits scheduled that commit before completing all 5...so unless/until Lee or Miller visits I'm not expecting a commit to MU to be the final result...neither visited MU...had either visited MU then our chances for a commit go way up...being the last visit means no one blew Lee or Miller away and MU has a chance to beat them...Louisville and UConn blew them away and ended up being the last visits since no other visits were made

I also have no idea who BD's source or sources are.  Coaches?  Players?  Parents of players?  The video coordinator?  Could be just about anyone.  I never was under the impression that the info came straight from directly from Wojo or the assistant coaches.  Probably a combination of a variety of sources.  Sources that have knowledge of what is going on or may have heard things about what is going on.  BD has a good track record of his sources providing good info.  But none of that info said "Lee will commit" or "Miller will commit".  BD informed us about the process, nothing more.  Did others see it this way or do you guys interpret things the way Heisenberg did?

[Tugg Speedman]

This paragraph just underscores that you don't understand the way things work in CBB today.  This isn't the 1980s anymore.  If kids aren't happy where they are for any number of reasons (1) playing time; 2) personal reasons; 3) dislike teammates; 4) dislike coaches; 5) dislike school, weather, city; etc, etc.), they will transfer. It IS that simple. ]

Get over transfers.  They're going to happen most years.  It is what it is.

+1

There are several hundred a year in D1 basketball.  They happen to every program.  In recent years Duke and UCLA had more transfers than MU.  EVERYONE gets them and how you recruit transfers (grad and underclassman) is critical.

Also did I read that NN going to Iowa State is the first top 100 high-schooler to commit as a senior since 2012?  And next year they are a top 5 team on the strength of transfers (yes, too many from MU).