Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'd like to see the coaches' reactions if they were forced to sit out a year if they change jobs. The schools allowed them to develop their craft so they should have ownership of the rest of their careers.

The coaches already have ramifications if they leave, that's what buyout penalties are for.  There IS a ramification, why are you ignoring that?

Why you guys keep comparing coaches to players is erroneous on every level. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Why do people keep saying 1 year renewable when that isn't always the case.  Entire major conferences are pushing 4 or 5 year scholarships now.

They are pushing for the ability to give out multiyear scholarships. That doesn't mean that they are actually giving them out. Of the 43 programs who finished in the top 25 in either basketball or football last season, only 5 have given multiyear scholarships to 10% or more of their college athletes. Most of the multiyear scholarships don't go to college basketball. They are used as an exclusive recruiting tool for certain players, usually in football.

But all of that isn't relevant to the conversation we're having. I know I have said this. Brew has said this. And I imagine others would agree with this. If a player attempts to leave a multiyear scholarship before its term is up than yes, hit them with penalties. Make them sit a year. They have signed a contract and are attempting to leave early. That is a breach of contract and deserves some ramifications. 100% agree.

But that is not what we are saying. We are saying that if a player is on a 1 year renewable scholarship...like 95% of division 1 college basketball players, and he wants to leave after his contract is up, than the ethical thing would be to let him go without penalty. What about this statement do you think is wrong?

[Boozemon Barro]

The coaches already have ramifications if they leave, that's what buyout penalties are for.  There IS a ramification, why are you ignoring that?

Why you guys keep comparing coaches to players is erroneous on every level.  

The coaches don't pay the buyout, their new employer does. Nice try. Also the coaches get to negotiate their "penalty" when they sign their contracts. The players are all forced to sign the same contract. If all coaches got paid with coupons from the campus book stores then maybe you'd have a point.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Why do people keep saying 1 year renewable when that isn't always the case.  Entire major conferences are pushing 4 or 5 year scholarships now.

Because the institutions you are advocating for (small schools getting 'robbed') don't have this mindset and pushing is not the same as it being an actual rule/setup.

[Lennys Tap]

The coaches already have ramifications if they leave, that's what buyout penalties are for.  There IS a ramification, why are you ignoring that?

  

The new school picks up the tab for the buyout. It IS NOT a ramification that hurts the coach. OTOH, a huge buy out can save a coach who's doing a crappy job. It's a nice insurance policy or (at worst) a huge severance package. Your boy at IU is exhibit A.

So, yeah, buy out provisions have ramifications. They're generally favorable to the coach.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The coaches don't pay the buyout, their new employer does. Nice try. Also the coaches get to negotiate their "penalty" when they sign their contracts. The players are all forced to sign the same contract. If all coaches got paid with coupons from the campus book stores then maybe you'd have a point.

That depends on the situation, but yes some coaches pay the buyouts directly.  If the employer, or booster does, good for them.

Have the kids parents, rich uncle, whomever do the same.  Point is, school put a tremendous amount of resources into the kid to develop them, the rule was supposed to be for kids getting a grad degree and that is a complete farce, and mid level and even some high majors are losing kids to that farce.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Because the institutions you are advocating for (small schools getting 'robbed') don't have this mindset and pushing is not the same as it being an actual rule/setup.

Some do, some don't.  It's not just small schools, either.  I wouldn't call Arizona State, a small school.  Indiana.  UNLV. Notre Dame.  Etc

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That depends on the situation, but yes some coaches pay the buyouts directly.  If the employer, or booster does, good for them.

Have the kids parents, rich uncle, whomever do the same.  Point is, school put a tremendous amount of resources into the kid to develop them, the rule was supposed to be for kids getting a grad degree and that is a complete farce, and mid level and even some high majors are losing kids to that farce.

You keep ignoring the point about 1 year scholarships. I think most everyone agrees with you that if a player is on a multiyear scholarship then there should be some sort of penalty. But for the 95%+ of players who are one year scholarships, there shouldn't be. Schools invest for a year and get a year's worth of play out of the player. It's a completely fair trade. Those resources the school spent are meaningless to this conversation. The player doesn't owe the school jack.

[Jay Bee]

Here's the thing. If you're going to play a game, do it consistently.

If it's about academics and kids committing to institutions, then great. Give a grad transfer an additional year on their clock, have them sit out a year in residence at the new school and you've made a nice, consistent and reasonable change.

Other paths fail to be principled and consistent in their reasoning - including the current exception (and waiver).

[Boozemon Barro]

That depends on the situation, but yes some coaches pay the buyouts directly.  If the employer, or booster does, good for them.

Have the kids parents, rich uncle, whomever do the same.  Point is, school put a tremendous amount of resources into the kid to develop them, the rule was supposed to be for kids getting a grad degree and that is a complete farce, and mid level and even some high majors are losing kids to that farce.

Speaking of farces, amateurism is the biggest farce in the sporting universe today. You always talk about everything that's invested in the athlete and never acknowledge that the university sees an immediate return on this investment as soon as the player suits up for one practice. The return is much, much higher than the investment.

[MU82]

Speaking of farces, amateurism is the biggest farce in the sporting universe today. You always talk about everything that's invested in the athlete and never acknowledge that the university sees an immediate return on this investment as soon as the player suits up for one practice. The return is much, much higher than the investment.

Careful. You're talking about the poor, put-upon universities and their coaches, who are struggling just to get by.

Those who constantly root for the overdogs won't like that!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There are maybe 20-40 kids on the list every year who use the rule to "move up" as the coach says. Most 5th years actually move down or sideways looking for more playing time. I know this contradicts the article but I tracked every grad transfer last year and this year. The article is wrong. With such a low number "abusing" the rule, I am ok with it.

TAMU, I'd love to see your data.

I said the above based on eyeballing the list of grad transfers from the summer of 2014. Since I didn't actually track it last year, I decided to this year.

As of this moment, 88 players D1 who qualify for either the grad transfer waiver or exception have selected where they will be taking their talents to next season. There are still a few dozen who remain uncommitted, but a majority of those are low level benchwarmers who will most likely be dropping a level of competition rather than going up.

I divided the conferences into High Major, Mid Major, Low Major, and Non D1. If a player went up, they got sorted in one pile. If a player went down they got sorted into one pile. If a player stayed at the same level they got sorted into another pile. This system is not perfect. Sometimes, players from a terrible high major transferred to a great mid major. This is probably a move up but because of conference affiliation it is recorded as a move down. It happened the opposite way as well.

As of right now, these 26 players moved up a level of competition:

Braeden Anderson   Fresno State   Seton Hall
Korey Billbury   Oral Roberts   VCU
Quentin Brewer   Bethune-Cookman   Illinois State
Anthony Collins   South Florida   Texas A&M
Jordan Gathers   St. Bonaventrue    Butler
Jimmy Gavin   Wisconsin-Parkside   Winthrop
Tomasz Gielo   Liberty   Ole Miss
Derrick Gordon   Umass   Seton Hall
Anton Grady   Cleveland State   Wichita State
Omari Grier   Bradley   Rutgers
Johnny Hill   UT Arlington   Purdue
Lenjo Kilo   District of Columbia   Savannah State
Damion Lee   Drexel   Louisville
Trey Lewis   Cleveland State   Louisville
Rafael Maia   Brown   Pittsburgh
Four McGlynn   Towson   Rhode Island
Shonn Miller   Cornell   Connecticut
Alex Mitola   Dartmouth    George Washington
Ron Mvouika   Missouri State   St. John's
Alonzo Nelson-Ododa   Richmond   Pittsburgh
Ike Nwamu   Mercer   UNLV
Shawn Smith   Marshall   Nevada
Sterling Smith   Coppin State   Pittsburgh
Mike Thorne Jr.   Charlotte   Illinois
Mark Tollefsen   San Francisco   Arizona
James White    Arkansas-Little Rock   Georgia Tech

These 40 players have moved down a level of competition:

Langston Burnett   Wagner   Glenville State
Aaron Cosby   Illinois   Western Kentucky
Gilles Dierickx   Washington   Seattle Pacific
Tony Dobbinson   Northwestern State   Metro State
Jeff Drew   Central Arkansas   William Penn University
Jimmie Duplessis   Southeastern Louisiana   Shorter
Sterling Gibbs   Seton Hall    Uconn
Tim Gill   Jacksonville   USC Aiken
Grandy Glaze   Saint Louis   Grand Canyon
Jure Gunjina   IPFW     Georgia Southwestern
Matt Hancock   Lamar   West Alabama
Charles Hill Jr.   TCU   Tarleton State
JaMarkus Horace   Nicholls State   Texas A&M-Kingsville
Lonnie Jackson   Boston College   Boise State
Jennard Jarreau   Washington   Tulane
Travis Julien   Nicholls State   Rogers State
Jalen Love    Denver   Newman
Tamron Manning   Marshall   Kentucky Wesleyan
Serigne Mboup   Austin Peay   Union
Austin McBroom   Saint Louis   Eastern Washington
Charles McKinney   DePaul   USC Aiken
Rawane Ndiaye   Tennesee   University of Regina
Kerwin Okoro   Rutgers   Norfolk State
Chauncey Orr   Bowling Green   Hawaii Pacific
Jalen Pendleton   Southern Illinois    Minnesota State
Durrell McDonald   DePaul   Mercyhurst
Tyler Rambo   Murray State   Indianapolis
Jarelle Reischel   Rhode Island   Eastern Kentucky
Denzel Richardson   Eastern Kentucky   Lynn
Jalen Robinson   Dayton   USC Aiken
Aaron Rountree III   Wake Forest   Iona
Ayinde Sprewell    Western Kentucky   St. Thomas University
Shaun Stewart   Youngstown State   Limestone
Gavin Thurman   Missouri State   Newman
Dakota Slaughter   Alabama   UT-Rio Grande Valley
Tavares Sledge   Wright State   USC Aiken
Antwan Space   Texas A&M     Massachussetts
Ricky Tarrant   Alabama   Memphis
Snoop Viser   Eastern Illinois   Minnesota State
Nate Wells     Bradley   Ball State

And these 22 made a lateral move to a school at the same level:

James Bourne   Winthrop   College of Charleston
DeVince Boykins    Marshall   Georgia Southern
Galal Cancer   Cornell   Kent State
Willie Clayton   Charlotte   Georgia State
Orlando Coleman   Kenneaw State   Texas Southern
Dylan Ennis   Villanova   Oregon
Tyler Harris   Providence    Auburn
Derrick Henry   Winthrop   The Citadel
Durand Johnson   Pittsburgh   St. John's
Iman Johnson   UMES   Samford
Scott King   Stony Brook   Fairfield
Denton Koon   Princeton   Hofstra
Uros Ljeskovic   Coastal Carolina    Grand Canyon
Chris Martin   Mount St. Mary's   Savannah State
Malcolm McMillan   Central Connecticut State   Canisius
Angel Nunez   Gonzaga   South Florida
Demetrius Pollard   Northeastern   Charleston Southern
Jermaine Ruttley   Florida A&M   Arkansas-Little Rock
Adam Smith   Virginia Tech   Georgia Tech
Rasheed Sulaimon   Duke     Maryland
Johan Van Zegeren   Virginia Tech   Northwestern
David Wishon   College of Charleston   Lipscomb

Now this doesn't mean that we should or shouldn't keep the 5th year transfer rule. But these does debunk the myth that a majority of grad transfers are jumping up a level of competition. For every top mid major grad transfer a high major steals, 1.5 are sent down to lower level conferences to replace that one. The only reason we think most grad transfers are trying to jump ship to better programs is because those are the only one the media covers. Everyone wants to hear about Damion Lee jumping from lowly Drexel all the way to Louisville. No one gives a rat's arse about Jeff Drew leaving Central Arkansas for William Penn.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

These 40 players have moved down a level of competition:

Sterling Gibbs   Seton Hall    Uconn

Nice work TAMU. 

Do you really consider going from SH to UCONN a move down though?

[brewcity77]

Nice work TAMU.  

Do you really consider going from SH to UCONN a move down though?

Big East to American is going down a level. UConn is bigger program wise, but the level of competition is lower.

I would also note that 3 of those that moved up were Ivy League transfers that had to go per league rules, which means 23/83 chose to move up a level (2 other Ivy League kids moved laterally). So this rampant problem of immediately eligible "free agents" accounts for 27.7% of  grad transfers and 3.5% of all transfers.

Bottom line, this perceived problem is not a problem, especially as the vast majority of kids using this rule are doing so to just give themselves one last chance at playing time at a lower or even level. But because a few big schools benefit, because a few exceptions exist, let's abolish this rule designed to actually reward the student athletes that are taking the student part seriously.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Nice work TAMU. 

Do you really consider going from SH to UCONN a move down though?

I mentioned this in the description. I only looked at conference affiliation. It's not prefect because of situations like this. But for every sterling Gibbs there is a Derrick Gordon who transferred from a good mid major to a bit as good high major

[Boozemon Barro]

I feel bad for those coaches and universities that lost a bench warmer to a program from an inferior conference. Has anyone checked to make sure they are doing ok?

[Sharpie]

They are pushing for the ability to give out multiyear scholarships. That doesn't mean that they are actually giving them out. Of the 43 programs who finished in the top 25 in either basketball or football last season, only 5 have given multiyear scholarships to 10% or more of their college athletes. Most of the multiyear scholarships don't go to college basketball. They are used as an exclusive recruiting tool for certain players, usually in football.

But all of that isn't relevant to the conversation we're having. I know I have said this. Brew has said this. And I imagine others would agree with this. If a player attempts to leave a multiyear scholarship before its term is up than yes, hit them with penalties. Make them sit a year. They have signed a contract and are attempting to leave early. That is a breach of contract and deserves some ramifications. 100% agree.

But that is not what we are saying. We are saying that if a player is on a 1 year renewable scholarship...like 95% of division 1 college basketball players, and he wants to leave after his contract is up, than the ethical thing would be to let him go without penalty. What about this statement do you think is wrong?

I agree with you on terms of what seems fair in regards to a one year so called contract but do you think that the transfer numbers and what some call an epidemic would spiral even further out of control? It's almost like there is 2 seasons to recruiting these days for the coaching staffs. I have no solutions or answers but I just see it being a problem already and may be a bigger problem if players don't have to sit out a year.

As far as people saying the coaches don't have ramifications...for upping and leaving - I understand what you mean but most of them have also been players and went through that process and have worked their tails off to get where they are so I don't exactly see it as being apples to apples. And I'm not saying that the players don't work their tails off either to get where they are in terms of scholarships, schools, perks, etc...

[MU82]

Now this doesn't mean that we should or shouldn't keep the 5th year transfer rule. But these does debunk the myth that a majority of grad transfers are jumping up a level of competition. For every top mid major grad transfer a high major steals, 1.5 are sent down to lower level conferences to replace that one. The only reason we think most grad transfers are trying to jump ship to better programs is because those are the only one the media covers. Everyone wants to hear about Damion Lee jumping from lowly Drexel all the way to Louisville. No one gives a rat's arse about Jeff Drew leaving Central Arkansas for William Penn.

But wait, TAMU ... It is still paramount for the very survival of college basketball that this non-problem be solved!

There are a few dozen players -- wait, not just players but college graduates -- who actually have the "upper hand" and we can't allow that. They are ruining the sport!!!!!