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Author Topic: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it  (Read 32941 times)

brewcity77

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2015, 12:21:40 AM »
Who provided that opportunity to that kid?  That small school, who put tremendous resources into developing that kid.  That is especially difficult for a small school with a small budget.  No one is saying you can't transfer out and move on up, but they're saying you need to sit out to do it.  The hypocrisy, as you state it, is that they are going for a graduate degree.  That's laughable.  No they aren't.  If they are, it takes two years anyway so there is no harm.  Get a year of that graduate work under your belt, practice with your new team and then play.  But we all know the vast vast majority of these transfers have no intent of getting a graduate degree, thus they are abusing the rule....as are the coaches that go after kids in that scenario.  That's the hypocrisy.

Comparing if a coach can go from a small school to a larger school is totally irrelevent.  He has to buy his way out of a contract, there are repercussions for him as well.  I've offered that same solution here, and no one wants it.  If a kid wants to transfer out and not sit, then he should have to do what the coach has to do....pay the buyout....or in this case, reimburse the scholarship. Everyone is even then.

Rationalizations. If scholarships had a four year commitment you'd have a leg to stand on. But if the player doesn't perform, no matter the level, they'll find a way to take his scholarship or force a transfer.

Until the schools guarantee a 4-year scholarship contract from day one there's no reason to block these. Amazing how it's only the schools that lose good players crying foul. None of the high majors complain when they can shuffle off a fifth year that never performed using the same rule.

The reality is scholarships are a series of one year contracts, and if the schools don't have to honor them, the students that did the work on and off the court shouldn't be bound more stringently than the school.

And again, even if this is a way to improve their professional stock, isn't that acceptable? Most of these kids aren't getting scholarships for the college education anyway. Improving their game to play professionally IS their graduate degree.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2015, 12:37:37 AM »
Of graduate transfers that go from D-I to D-I, how many receive a graduate degree?

Trent Lockett, a'nia?

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2015, 07:54:45 AM »
Taylor should have transfered last year or stuck it out at MU.  There are repercussions with everything in life.  Taking a new job, staying with the old one, transfering schools, calling off the wedding, etc.  This is part of life. 

You didn't address my point. I'm talking about students who's primary motivation for transferring is pursuing a graduate degree not offered by their current constitution. Making them sit a year will extremely limit the number of schools they'd be able to pursue their degree it. That is a fact. I know its not the way the world works, but that educational interest should be more important than the schools' financial concerns. Usually, the NCAA favors the schools over the players. This is one of the only places where the players win. This is worth protecting.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2015, 08:05:14 AM »
Rationalizations. If scholarships had a four year commitment you'd have a leg to stand on. But if the player doesn't perform, no matter the level, they'll find a way to take his scholarship or force a transfer.

Until the schools guarantee a 4-year scholarship contract from day one there's no reason to block these. Amazing how it's only the schools that lose good players crying foul. None of the high majors complain when they can shuffle off a fifth year that never performed using the same rule.

The reality is scholarships are a series of one year contracts, and if the schools don't have to honor them, the students that did the work on and off the court shouldn't be bound more stringently than the school.

And again, even if this is a way to improve their professional stock, isn't that acceptable? Most of these kids aren't getting scholarships for the college education anyway. Improving their game to play professionally IS their graduate degree.

+1000

Universities offer 1 year contracts. Play for us, make money for us and we will give you a year's worth of college education (and everything that entails) and a year's worth of development as a basketball player. Players owe their universities nothing after that year is up. If a university offers a four year scholarship, then sure, make them sit a year. That is an actual breach of contract by the player.

Ethically, the most right thing is to allow all transfers to play immediately. No sitting out a year.

Practically, the most right thing is to make all transfers sit.

Personally, I'd rather go with the ethical practice and find a way to make it more practical. That's better than trying to justify the practical one as ethical.
TAMU

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brewcity77

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2015, 08:48:02 AM »
We know the base graduation rates at most schools aren't that great. Just look at Wisconsin, or even our own players the last 5-6 years. The grad transfer rule makes sure these kids Gerry degrees before they can use it. Even if it only guarantees the first degree, isn't that a step in the right direction? For as little as is actually done to truly educate these kids, giving them the grad transfer carrot makes sure their athletic career ends with a diploma. That, to me, is a big positive.
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2015, 09:47:14 AM »
Scholarships now do have a 4 year commitment at a number of schools......the leg I'm standing on is fine.

Secondly, by the time you get to your 3rd or 4th year, you are going to keep your scholarship 99.9% of the time so it's not even relevant to this example.

Again...the rule was created to allow a kid to transfer to a school that had already graduated and earn a graduate degree because his current school doesn't have that program.  Instead, they have made a mockery of that rule because that isn't happening at all....surprise surprise. 

TJ

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2015, 09:55:36 AM »
Scholarships now do have a 4 year commitment at a number of schools......the leg I'm standing on is fine.

Secondly, by the time you get to your 3rd or 4th year, you are going to keep your scholarship 99.9% of the time so it's not even relevant to this example.

Again...the rule was created to allow a kid to transfer to a school that had already graduated and earn a graduate degree because his current school doesn't have that program.  Instead, they have made a mockery of that rule because that isn't happening at all....surprise surprise. 
How many schools did you go to?  What if you were limited to your undergrad unless it didn't offer the program you wanted?  The rule is fine as is... when a person finishes college they should have the freedom to pursue their post-graduate studies at the institution of their choice.  And they should be able to participate in athletics while they do so without penalty.

brewcity77

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2015, 09:58:34 AM »
I wish I could find the tweet but one of the recruiting experts, talking about the "transfer epidemic" said today weekday most don't realize is more than half of these transfers are the schools telling kids they are not welcome to come back. So no, these aren't four year contracts. They are one year contracts that the schools are exploiting more often to get rid of kids they don't want than the kids are exploiting to get somewhere they do.
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TJ

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2015, 10:01:04 AM »
Who provided that opportunity to that kid?  That small school, who put tremendous resources into developing that kid.  That is especially difficult for a small school with a small budget.  No one is saying you can't transfer out and move on up, but they're saying you need to sit out to do it.  The hypocrisy, as you state it, is that they are going for a graduate degree.  That's laughable.  No they aren't.  If they are, it takes two years anyway so there is no harm.  Get a year of that graduate work under your belt, practice with your new team and then play.  But we all know the vast vast majority of these transfers have no intent of getting a graduate degree, thus they are abusing the rule....as are the coaches that go after kids in that scenario.  That's the hypocrisy.

Comparing if a coach can go from a small school to a larger school is totally irrelevent.  He has to buy his way out of a contract, there are repercussions for him as well.  I've offered that same solution here, and no one wants it.  If a kid wants to transfer out and not sit, then he should have to do what the coach has to do....pay the buyout....or in this case, reimburse the scholarship. Everyone is even then.
You act as if the school gets nothing in return for their investment developing the players.  If that was the case this would not be a multi-billion dollar industry.  The players provide ample return to the school, even if it is just as a practice player.  They owe nothing to the school after each year is complete.

Also a coach can have his new school pay his buyout for him... so let's take the analogy all the way.  The school that the grad student transfers into has to reimburse the previous school for 1 year of scholarship in order to take a grad transfer and then he can play right away.          (do I need teal?)

TJ

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2015, 10:08:22 AM »
According to Goodman, there are 74 grad transfers this year. Of those, 25 have committed. 11 have "transferred up", 9 have "transferred down", & 5 stayed at about the same level. 6 are Ivy transfers that must transfer to keep playing because of league rules.

Looking at the remaining names, many are high major washouts and most will either transfer level or down. So maybe 15-20 kids transfer up. The majority of grad transfers are kids that just want a chance to keep playing and won't get it at their current school. But because of 15-20 kids (3% of transfers) the system needs to be fixed and the loophole closed?

My real issue is that this is all blamed on the kids. Everyone forgets that scholarships are 1-year commitments. You want to see the transfers slow down? Require schools to give a 4-year commitment. More than half of transfers are coaches telling kids they aren't welcome back. Yet every time, the kid gets blamed.

This is a just tilting at windmills.
+1

I acknowledge that some schools now give 4 year scholarships.  But it isn't universal and schools can still cut players without repercussions while those same players are penalized by having to sit out a year at their new school

Pakuni

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2015, 10:29:12 AM »
You act as if the school gets nothing in return for their investment developing the players.  If that was the case this would not be a multi-billion dollar industry.  The players provide ample return to the school, even if it is just as a practice player.  They owe nothing to the school after each year is complete.

Also a coach can have his new school pay his buyout for him... so let's take the analogy all the way.  The school that the grad student transfers into has to reimburse the previous school for 1 year of scholarship in order to take a grad transfer and then he can play right away.          (do I need teal?)

Schools are "developing" these kids out of the kindness of their hearts. Has nothing to do with the millions of dollars of revenue their labor generates.

I'm wondering what Gary Waters "owes" his previous employers for their help developing him.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2015, 03:21:10 PM »
You didn't address my point. I'm talking about students who's primary motivation for transferring is pursuing a graduate degree not offered by their current constitution. Making them sit a year will extremely limit the number of schools they'd be able to pursue their degree it. That is a fact. I know its not the way the world works, but that educational interest should be more important than the schools' financial concerns. Usually, the NCAA favors the schools over the players. This is one of the only places where the players win. This is worth protecting.

So we're saying that abusing the system by so many is causing those that play by the rules to get hurt?  Yup.  Happens all the time.  It's a shame.  We can extrapolate this to all kinds of things where fraud, or abuse, or taking advantage of programs (gov't, corporate, etc) lead to those truly needing it to get hurt.

I don't disagree with you at all.  There are laws of unintended consequences.  This rule helps the 5% as you estimated, but hurts a number of smaller schools who also have a say in this.  Why should those smaller schools invest all that time, money, effort on some of these kids just to have them leave?  At my company, I can get a PhD or MBA or whatever extra schooling, but I have to remain at the company or pay it back.  The company has made an investment.   

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2015, 03:23:44 PM »
How many schools did you go to?  What if you were limited to your undergrad unless it didn't offer the program you wanted?  The rule is fine as is... when a person finishes college they should have the freedom to pursue their post-graduate studies at the institution of their choice.  And they should be able to participate in athletics while they do so without penalty.

I went to one undergraduate...completed my degree with multiple majors and a minor. Then I chose to go to two different graduate schools for my post graduate work.

I wasn't on scholarship to play for my undergraduate institution, have them train me, sink a ton of resources into me.  That's the difference.    I've provided a solution.  You want to leave, pay back the last year of that scholarship to reimburse the school.  Free and clear.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2015, 03:26:33 PM »
My real issue is that this is all blamed on the kids. Everyone forgets that scholarships are 1-year commitments. You want to see the transfers slow down? Require schools to give a 4-year commitment. More than half of transfers are coaches telling kids they aren't welcome back. Yet every time, the kid gets blamed.


Scholarships CAN be 1 year commitments....in fact Marquette University voted to keep them that way.  That is no longer the case if a school wishes to provide a 4 year commitment, like the Big Ten is doing.   

I'd like a source on the underlined part.   Everything I've read or what people at league offices (Big Ten, Pac 12, Mountain West) or AD's I know well have said the driver is the kids.  Not wanting to wait, not wanting to wait their turn, not getting enough playing time.  No doubt that some kids aren't welcome back, but I find your "more than half" to be unsubstantiated.

GGGG

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2015, 03:27:03 PM »
I wasn't on scholarship to play for my undergraduate institution, have them train me, sink a ton of resources into me.  That's the difference.    I've provided a solution.  You want to leave, pay back the last year of that scholarship to reimburse the school.  Free and clear.


We know Chicos.

The poor schools, and their downtrodden coaches, are being exploited and taken advantage of by the powerful players.  #coacheslivesmatter.  

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2015, 03:32:16 PM »
I wasn't on scholarship to play for my undergraduate institution, have them train me, sink a ton of resources into me.  That's the difference.    I've provided a solution.  You want to leave, pay back the last year of that scholarship to reimburse the school. Free and clear.

How do you do this when the scholarship is 1 year renewable?  What are the implications if a scholarship is pulled?  Do you make 1 and done's do the same?  What about someone who is run off - do they owe too?

Maybe the best option/rule set is the current one.  I am ok contemplating changes - especially if it is being over-exploited.  I just don't know if it is an actual problem.

brewcity77

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2015, 04:38:28 PM »
I'd like a source on the underlined part.   Everything I've read or what people at league offices (Big Ten, Pac 12, Mountain West) or AD's I know well have said the driver is the kids.  Not wanting to wait, not wanting to wait their turn, not getting enough playing time.  No doubt that some kids aren't welcome back, but I find your "more than half" to be unsubstantiated.

I would too. Did you read my subsequent post? I'm hoping someone will write that article. Finding a small section of tweets is tough. Should have bookmarked it.

The payback idea is at best silly for many of these kids. Quite a few come from socioeconomic backgrounds that mean they don't have the resources to do this. The 3% of transfers that have you up in arms, the paltry few that transfer up, are often hoping to showcase their skills in hopes of improving their professional stock so they can't start making the money that would make that possible. Kind of a catch-22.
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Pakuni

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #117 on: April 28, 2015, 04:45:40 PM »
I wasn't on scholarship to play for my undergraduate institution, have them train me, sink a ton of resources into me.  That's the difference.    I've provided a solution.  You want to leave, pay back the last year of that scholarship to reimburse the school.  Free and clear.

How many people paid $50+ a pop to watch you be trained? How many more tuned into ESPN to do the same?
There are no words to describe exactly how silly it is for you to compare your situation as an undergrad with that of a revenue sport athlete.
The reality is, most of these kids in the revenue sports repay the cost of their scholarship many times over.

GB Warrior

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2015, 04:49:57 PM »
To me, this is a reward for graduating early - an opportunity to cherry pick an opportunity for exposure elsewhere while pursuing an advanced degree. Now granted, this is subject to abuse, but the alternative I see is a rule that a player's eligibility can extend no further than their undergraduate degree. That feels as though it wrongly punishes the masses for the transgressions of a few.

Pakuni

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2015, 04:50:02 PM »

We know Chicos.

The poor schools, and their downtrodden coaches, are being exploited and taken advantage of by the powerful players.  #coacheslivesmatter.  

The coaches pour so much blood, sweat and tears into developing these kids as players, students and men, and what do they get out of it?*

* = excluding seven-figure salaries, shoe contracts, contracts to do TV and radio shows, etc.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2015, 07:45:58 PM »
So we're saying that abusing the system by so many is causing those that play by the rules to get hurt?  Yup.  Happens all the time.  It's a shame.  We can extrapolate this to all kinds of things where fraud, or abuse, or taking advantage of programs (gov't, corporate, etc) lead to those truly needing it to get hurt.

I don't disagree with you at all.  There are laws of unintended consequences.  This rule helps the 5% as you estimated, but hurts a number of smaller schools who also have a say in this.  Why should those smaller schools invest all that time, money, effort on some of these kids just to have them leave?  At my company, I can get a PhD or MBA or whatever extra schooling, but I have to remain at the company or pay it back.  The company has made an investment.   

The students did them pay them back. The school offered them five separate one year contracts (Four years of eligibility and one redshirt year). The student accepted the first four offers, then declined the fifth. One year of scholarship for one year of representing the school on the court. That's the deal. If schools can choose to not renew these contracts with the students without penalty, then the students should be able to choose to not renew the contract without penalty. If the student is in a four year contract, then we can talk about penalties. But these are one year contracts. The players don't owe their former schools squat.
TAMU

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Boozemon Barro

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2015, 08:14:02 PM »
The coaches pour so much blood, sweat and tears into developing these kids as players, students and men, and what do they get out of it?*

* = excluding seven-figure salaries, shoe contracts, contracts to do TV and radio shows, etc.

I'd like to see the coaches' reactions if they were forced to sit out a year if they change jobs. The schools allowed them to develop their craft so they should have ownership of the rest of their careers.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2015, 09:57:57 PM »
How do you do this when the scholarship is 1 year renewable?  What are the implications if a scholarship is pulled?  Do you make 1 and done's do the same?  What about someone who is run off - do they owe too?

Maybe the best option/rule set is the current one.  I am ok contemplating changes - especially if it is being over-exploited.  I just don't know if it is an actual problem.

Why do people keep saying 1 year renewable when that isn't always the case.  Entire major conferences are pushing 4 or 5 year scholarships now.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2015, 10:00:52 PM »
I would too. Did you read my subsequent post? I'm hoping someone will write that article. Finding a small section of tweets is tough. Should have bookmarked it.

The payback idea is at best silly for many of these kids. Quite a few come from socioeconomic backgrounds that mean they don't have the resources to do this. The 3% of transfers that have you up in arms, the paltry few that transfer up, are often hoping to showcase their skills in hopes of improving their professional stock so they can't start making the money that would make that possible. Kind of a catch-22.

Most kids are not transfering because the coach doesn't want them there.  The evidence is just not there.  Players are transfering up, or looking for more playing time.

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/2014/04/25/college-basketball-transfers-proliferate-various-reasons/8150561/

At what point do we teach commitments and that commitments come with ramifications?  If a coach leaves, he has to pay a buyout.  That's a ramification.  When players leave, there are ramifications as well.  I'm offering a buy out option for the kids.  No different than the military academies or when you go to school on a company's dime....in both cases they are educational examples. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:03:21 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2015, 10:01:41 PM »
How many people paid $50+ a pop to watch you be trained? How many more tuned into ESPN to do the same?
There are no words to describe exactly how silly it is for you to compare your situation as an undergrad with that of a revenue sport athlete.
The reality is, most of these kids in the revenue sports repay the cost of their scholarship many times over.

Uhm, I didn't compare my situation....someone else did.  I answered the person's statement.  Good try....read again.