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Author Topic: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it  (Read 32944 times)

Boozemon Barro

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2015, 09:24:13 AM »
Correct, but you are using it incorrectly in this case.

I can't think of a sports league or conference that doesn't have a hierarchy of control.  They set the rules, the guidelines, etc.  It's called order.  Because one supports SOME of the rules or guidelines they are making does not mean one supports ALL of what they are doing.  Nevertheless, that control structure is needed or chaos ensues.   



That's just false. Ever heard of a players' union? Clown show.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2015, 09:27:24 AM »
Why is it silly, didn't Northwestern try to unionize two years ago?  Most student athletes are getting a great deal on college scholarships.  440,000 of them.   People here want to focus on the .1%


True, we want to focus on the collegiate professional athletes.  BTW, isn't that who the 5th year transfer rule (thread title) affects?
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

GGGG

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2015, 09:49:06 AM »
Yup, and your boss is more powerful than you.  Just as my boss is.  Oligarchy.


False analogy. 

Lennys Tap

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2015, 10:00:43 AM »
Yup, and your boss is more powerful than you.  Just as my boss is.  Oligarchy.


If you want the players to be more powerful than the coaches....I suggest watching the NBA.


Eureka! When a guy who claims to love basketball hates the best basketball played on the planet their has to be an explanation. For you , it's POLITICS! Those uppity players in the NBA just don't know their place, a'ina?

TJ

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2015, 10:03:53 AM »
Why is it silly, didn't Northwestern try to unionize two years ago?  Most student athletes are getting a great deal on college scholarships.  440,000 of them.   People here want to focus on the .1%. 

Ok, when the first student-athlete is able to successfully negotiate a new contract with no transfer restrictions (basically in violation of NCAA rules) I'll bow to your greatness.

TJ

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2015, 10:12:08 AM »
The more I think about the rule, the more I think it's the most common sense and logical rule in the NCAA rule book today.  Forget about sports, think about the kids as students - it's extremely common for graduate students to choose a different institution than their undergrad for their studies.  The whole point of going to college is to get a degree; these students have done that.  Now the move on to the next chapter of their life - in this case pursuing a graduate degree at the institution of their choice.  I can think of no logical reason why the rule should be changed, besides protecting coaches and basketball teams - so of course it will be changed.

JWags85

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2015, 12:41:47 PM »
Most student athletes are getting a great deal on college scholarships.  440,000 of them.   People here want to focus on the .1%. 

Most student athletes are not getting full rides, but are still tied to the same restrictions.   My coworker's son is a baseball player at a smaller school.  They have a number of scholarships (5-6) to split among the team.  When his son was a freshman, he wasn't allowed to buy him a TV for his dorm room during move in cause his roommate was a fellow baseball player and that TV in their room would have been an impermissible benefit.

MarquetteDano

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2015, 12:43:36 PM »
 I can think of no logical reason why the rule should be changed, besides protecting coaches and basketball teams - so of course it will be changed.

I see a little more advantages and disadvantages on this...

The Good
Incentives for students to graduate

With immediate transfer allows.student to get graduate degree at a different institution with no break in playing time

If they have to sit out a year thats another schollie they take from someone else (since they will get two years instead of one)

The Bad
We always think of the four year student. How bout the six year guy who reshirted one year and sat out another due to an earlier transfer

Guys who dont care about about grad degree but use it as an excuse to go to Power School from small school to showcase skills


« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 12:45:22 PM by MarquetteDano »

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2015, 12:45:43 PM »
That's just false. Ever heard of a players' union? Clown show.

Yes, and those unions have to agree to a CBA.  The CBA is administered and executed, by in large, by the league.  Certainly there are agreed upon limits, but the Commissioner or other officers have the responsibility to enforce the rules, to penalize schools, teams, owners, players, etc.  There is still a hierarchy, regardless if a union exists.  
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 03:22:28 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2015, 12:46:54 PM »
The more I think about the rule, the more I think it's the most common sense and logical rule in the NCAA rule book today.  Forget about sports, think about the kids as students - it's extremely common for graduate students to choose a different institution than their undergrad for their studies.  The whole point of going to college is to get a degree; these students have done that.  Now the move on to the next chapter of their life - in this case pursuing a graduate degree at the institution of their choice.  I can think of no logical reason why the rule should be changed, besides protecting coaches and basketball teams - so of course it will be changed.

I suspect you don't know 95% of the rules in the NCAA rule book or you wouldn't have made that statement.  Most of the rules are common sense, but people are too lazy to know what they are. 

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2015, 12:49:34 PM »
Most student athletes are not getting full rides, but are still tied to the same restrictions.   My coworker's son is a baseball player at a smaller school.  They have a number of scholarships (5-6) to split among the team.  When his son was a freshman, he wasn't allowed to buy him a TV for his dorm room during move in cause his roommate was a fellow baseball player and that TV in their room would have been an impermissible benefit.

Then whomever was working compliance messed up big on that one.  A parent is absolutely allowed to buy or provide a television for their child, regardless of who their roommate is.  That is just a horrible reading of the rule.  If the roommate had brought a tv from home, would it not be allowed?  Of course it would.  Or a little refrigerator, or a stereo, etc.   Sounds like that compliance group at that school needs to get reeducated. 

Boozemon Barro

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2015, 12:54:38 PM »
Yes, and those unions have to agree to a CBA.  The CBA is administered and executed, by in large, by the league.  Certainly there are agreed up limits, but the Commissioner or other officers have the responsibility to enforce the rules, to penalize schools, teams, owners, players, etc.  There is still a hierarchy, regardless if a union exists. 

Yes, clown show, it is collectively bargained and the players union will advocate for the individual players when it comes to league discipline matters or when league rules are changed. There's nothing similar in the NCAA which makes your comparison silly. Since you're against pay for play, you should avoid trying to make comparisons to professional leagues. Although in that case I believe you know football and basketball players are being taken advantage of and you simply don't care. Doesn't matter though, the NCAA is losing in the courts and the whole thing will get blown up within the next decade.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2015, 01:01:17 PM »
Even if 95% of graduate transfers are using the rule to find a better basketball situation for themselves, I'd still fight to keep the rule for the 5% who legitimately are looking to continue their graduate education.
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TJ

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2015, 02:01:32 PM »
I suspect you don't know 95% of the rules in the NCAA rule book or you wouldn't have made that statement.  Most of the rules are common sense, but people are too lazy to know what they are. 
It was hyperbole.  But it's still a common sense rule - it's quite common for students pursuing graduate degrees to do so at an institution other than their undergrad institution.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2015, 03:26:10 PM »
Yes, clown show, it is collectively bargained and the players union will advocate for the individual players when it comes to league discipline matters or when league rules are changed. There's nothing similar in the NCAA which makes your comparison silly. Since you're against pay for play, you should avoid trying to make comparisons to professional leagues. Although in that case I believe you know football and basketball players are being taken advantage of and you simply don't care. Doesn't matter though, the NCAA is losing in the courts and the whole thing will get blown up within the next decade.

I don't think they are being taken advantage of.  Not one iota.  Free tuition, free food, free clothes, free shelter, best coaching, chance to show their wares for their next gig, travel, etc.  99% of college football and basketball players do not play professionally in the United States.  This is a great deal for them. 

Whether the NCAA loses in the courts doesn't mean the outcomes will be what people want.  Those courts are also wanting to protect Title IX, chances for non-revenue sports to continue and they don't if you blow up system.  So any "losses" won't amount to the drastic changes some want, but rather smaller changes on the fringes in my opinion. 

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2015, 03:28:55 PM »
It was hyperbole.  But it's still a common sense rule - it's quite common for students pursuing graduate degrees to do so at an institution other than their undergrad institution.

Absolutely agree...for students.  For Student-Athletes, if the goal was to truly go and get a graduate degree from another school one would expect many more to actually earn that graduate degree.  Instead, that's not what is happening.  They aren't earning that graduate degree, they are using it as a pit stop, essentially abusing the rule and its intent.  In the process, the rule is also taking away from smaller schools that took chances on kids, developed them, paid greatly to train, educate, etc only to have them leave without any repercussions.  That's the other side of the argument here. 

So are these kids truly going on to get their graduate degree?  Or are they not?

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2015, 03:30:37 PM »
Even if 95% of graduate transfers are using the rule to find a better basketball situation for themselves, I'd still fight to keep the rule for the 5% who legitimately are looking to continue their graduate education.

How does changing the rules like they are talking about impact that 5% at all? They will still get their graduate education and still get to play, but they just have to sit out a year.  They get to do both...the 5% is not harmed at all.  The 95% that are screwing with the rule and abusing it and taking advantage of smaller programs then have to decide were they truly going after that graduate degree or not?  I suspect their true intentions will be exposed rather quickly.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2015, 03:38:09 PM »
Absolutely agree...for students.  For Student-Athletes, if the goal was to truly go and get a graduate degree from another school one would expect many more to actually earn that graduate degree.  Instead, that's not what is happening.  They aren't earning that graduate degree, they are using it as a pit stop, essentially abusing the rule and its intent.  In the process, the rule is also taking away from smaller schools that took chances on kids, developed them, paid greatly to train, educate, etc only to have them leave without any repercussions.  That's the other side of the argument here.  

So are these kids truly going on to get their graduate degree?  Or are they not?

I agree that this loophole/rule has seemed to gotten over-exploited - not too dissimilar to the 'special family circumstance' waiver they are now clamping down on.  However what you paint above as a burden of proof would be kind of silly considering the number of athletes that don't get their undergraduate degrees.  Not sure if a fix is truly needed but maybe a higher burden of proof is ultimately needed.  

« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 03:40:22 PM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

brewcity77

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2015, 04:10:27 PM »
According to Goodman, there are 74 grad transfers this year. Of those, 25 have committed. 11 have "transferred up", 9 have "transferred down", & 5 stayed at about the same level. 6 are Ivy transfers that must transfer to keep playing because of league rules.

Looking at the remaining names, many are high major washouts and most will either transfer level or down. So maybe 15-20 kids transfer up. The majority of grad transfers are kids that just want a chance to keep playing and won't get it at their current school. But because of 15-20 kids (3% of transfers) the system needs to be fixed and the loophole closed?

My real issue is that this is all blamed on the kids. Everyone forgets that scholarships are 1-year commitments. You want to see the transfers slow down? Require schools to give a 4-year commitment. More than half of transfers are coaches telling kids they aren't welcome back. Yet every time, the kid gets blamed.

This is a just tilting at windmills.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2015, 04:20:07 PM »
How does changing the rules like they are talking about impact that 5% at all? They will still get their graduate education and still get to play, but they just have to sit out a year.  They get to do both...the 5% is not harmed at all.  The 95% that are screwing with the rule and abusing it and taking advantage of smaller programs then have to decide were they truly going after that graduate degree or not?  I suspect their true intentions will be exposed rather quickly.

I see your point, but it does impact the 5% (completely made up number BTW). Look at Steve Taylor. Signs seem to indicate that he will end up at UIC. He has the talent to play for a high major but he will end up playing for a horizon league bottomfeeder. Coaches don't want to spend two years of a scholarship on a kid who will only get to play one year. It will extremely limit where students have the ability to transfer to. Some of the lesser talented players won't be able to find any school willing to take them. Making them sit out a year will extremely limit their ability to seek a degree of their choice. The educational interests of the 5% are more important to me than the monetary interests of the coaches of the 95%. At least, they should be.

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Pakuni

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2015, 04:34:11 PM »
According to Goodman, there are 74 grad transfers this year. Of those, 25 have committed. 11 have "transferred up", 9 have "transferred down", & 5 stayed at about the same level. 6 are Ivy transfers that must transfer to keep playing because of league rules.

Looking at the remaining names, many are high major washouts and most will either transfer level or down. So maybe 15-20 kids transfer up. The majority of grad transfers are kids that just want a chance to keep playing and won't get it at their current school. But because of 15-20 kids (3% of transfers) the system needs to be fixed and the loophole closed?

My real issue is that this is all blamed on the kids. Everyone forgets that scholarships are 1-year commitments. You want to see the transfers slow down? Require schools to give a 4-year commitment. More than half of transfers are coaches telling kids they aren't welcome back. Yet every time, the kid gets blamed.

This is a just tilting at windmills.

What I'm not understanding is why we're supposed to be angry about these kids looking to "transfer up."
I understand not wanting the chaos that would come with unfettered transfers among undergrads. But that's not what we're talking about.

Nobody would get mad if an Illinois State University engineering student gets into the master's program at Stanford, yet we're supposed to be outraged if an ISU basketball player works hard on the court and in school and earns his way into a Big 10 program?

brewcity77

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2015, 05:07:39 PM »
What I'm not understanding is why we're supposed to be angry about these kids looking to "transfer up."
I understand not wanting the chaos that would come with unfettered transfers among undergrads. But that's not what we're talking about.

Nobody would get mad if an Illinois State University engineering student gets into the master's program at Stanford, yet we're supposed to be outraged if an ISU basketball player works hard on the court and in school and earns his way into a Big 10 program?

The complaints about this rule are all about the poor coaches. There's no concern for the kids. None. So what if they want to play on a bigger stage to enhance their professional prospects? That seems like making the most of your opportunity and they had to work on and off the court to get that chance.

And if their small school coaches got the same chance to go coach in the ACC, Big East, Pac-12, or other bigger job, no one would complain. This whole thing is hypocrisy.

And sorry, but the opinions of Coach K and Tom Izzo are irrelevant. They get the best freshmen in the country and would just be blocking their competition from using this. They aren't affected by this, positively or negatively, so why should their word be gospel?
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Jay Bee

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2015, 06:06:34 PM »
Of graduate transfers that go from D-I to D-I, how many receive a graduate degree?
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2015, 12:02:37 AM »
The complaints about this rule are all about the poor coaches. There's no concern for the kids. None. So what if they want to play on a bigger stage to enhance their professional prospects? That seems like making the most of your opportunity and they had to work on and off the court to get that chance.

And if their small school coaches got the same chance to go coach in the ACC, Big East, Pac-12, or other bigger job, no one would complain. This whole thing is hypocrisy.

And sorry, but the opinions of Coach K and Tom Izzo are irrelevant. They get the best freshmen in the country and would just be blocking their competition from using this. They aren't affected by this, positively or negatively, so why should their word be gospel?

Who provided that opportunity to that kid?  That small school, who put tremendous resources into developing that kid.  That is especially difficult for a small school with a small budget.  No one is saying you can't transfer out and move on up, but they're saying you need to sit out to do it.  The hypocrisy, as you state it, is that they are going for a graduate degree.  That's laughable.  No they aren't.  If they are, it takes two years anyway so there is no harm.  Get a year of that graduate work under your belt, practice with your new team and then play.  But we all know the vast vast majority of these transfers have no intent of getting a graduate degree, thus they are abusing the rule....as are the coaches that go after kids in that scenario.  That's the hypocrisy.

Comparing if a coach can go from a small school to a larger school is totally irrelevent.  He has to buy his way out of a contract, there are repercussions for him as well.  I've offered that same solution here, and no one wants it.  If a kid wants to transfer out and not sit, then he should have to do what the coach has to do....pay the buyout....or in this case, reimburse the scholarship. Everyone is even then.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Fixing the 5th year transfer rule....coaches say must do it
« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2015, 12:12:19 AM »
I see your point, but it does impact the 5% (completely made up number BTW). Look at Steve Taylor. Signs seem to indicate that he will end up at UIC. He has the talent to play for a high major but he will end up playing for a horizon league bottomfeeder. Coaches don't want to spend two years of a scholarship on a kid who will only get to play one year. It will extremely limit where students have the ability to transfer to. Some of the lesser talented players won't be able to find any school willing to take them. Making them sit out a year will extremely limit their ability to seek a degree of their choice. The educational interests of the 5% are more important to me than the monetary interests of the coaches of the 95%. At least, they should be.



Taylor should have transfered last year or stuck it out at MU.  There are repercussions with everything in life.  Taking a new job, staying with the old one, transfering schools, calling off the wedding, etc.  This is part of life. 

 

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