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Author Topic: This one is for Keefe!  (Read 33596 times)

77ncaachamps

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2015, 09:34:41 PM »
SS Marquette

keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2015, 01:00:14 PM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/t30oE6AbXaw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/t30oE6AbXaw</a>


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muwarrior69

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keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2015, 10:21:10 AM »
Should we be worried?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-06-17/the-china-pakistan-fighter-jet-built-on-the-cheap?cmpid=otbrn.video

Uh, no.

They have built an airframe. Differentiators include avionics, power plants, weapons load out, pilot proficiency, tactical doctrine, C3, maintenance, logistics.

I am thinking the guys in the 57th ATG at Nellis are licking their chops rather than soiling their Calvins. They have already figured out how to beat this thing 20x over.

 


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Benny B

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2015, 03:01:37 PM »
I wonder if the jet sounds like a snowmobile engine.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

rocket surgeon

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2015, 10:45:18 PM »
don't...don't don't don't don't

rocket surgeon

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2015, 08:52:29 AM »
Keefe-would you be able to translate this situation re: the Iraqi pilot training here.  Kinda brings back memories of a few years back.  Some guys training on how to fly our "big dogs" only to unfortunately find out later, their real intentions.

Patient of mine-pilot for United on THAT dreadful day was flying his 747 into U.S. From Canada as all hell was breaking loose. He had two Saudi nationals onboard.  Well, they found out after they landed, that their plane was to take part in the jihad, but was called off at last minute as the whole thing unfolded-fascinating story to hear him tell it- gives ya goose pimples-cold ones
don't...don't don't don't don't

Benny B

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2015, 10:19:15 AM »
Keefe-would you be able to translate this situation re: the Iraqi pilot training here.  Kinda brings back memories of a few years back.  Some guys training on how to fly our "big dogs" only to unfortunately find out later, their real intentions.

Patient of mine-pilot for United on THAT dreadful day was flying his 747 into U.S. From Canada as all hell was breaking loose. He had two Saudi nationals onboard.  Well, they found out after they landed, that their plane was to take part in the jihad, but was called off at last minute as the whole thing unfolded-fascinating story to hear him tell it- gives ya goose pimples-cold ones

As the article says, the US conducts international training for pilots in Arizona, i.e. allied military pilots.  The pilot in this case was a Brigadier General... that's a pretty high ranking, even for the Iraqis (i.e. if jihadists were trying to "infiltrate" the enemy in order to attack it, I'd imagine there are far easier paths than having to go through the ranks of the Iraqi Air Force to a Brig Gen).  That's a pretty stark contrast to the jihadists who sought out private flight training nearly a couple decades ago.

Then again, some of the foreign fighters in Afghanistan who the US trained to push back the Soviets in the 80s eventually used their training against the U.S. and its allies (Osama Bin Laden being one of those)... so sure, you could take the position that we should never train a foreign military because you never know when an ally might turn into an enemy, but that's horrible foreign policy.  You also can't shy away from training our allies just because they're middle eastern; after all, they are the allies who need our help the most... which is worse, a) training your allies knowing the possibility that some fighters may eventually defect or b) allowing your allies to be overtaken by the enemy knowing the certainty that all of them will defect (or be killed).
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2015, 12:31:20 PM »
It's funny because glow asked me off-line about all those same F 16s parked on the far side of Tuscon IAP. The USAF assigned the AZ ANG (well, Brig Gen/Sen Barry Goldwater of AFRES "asked" the AF) the mission of instructing F 16 Fighter Weapons Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures to NATO, Allied, and friendly air forces at Tuscon. The AZ ANG 162nd Fighter Wing is the largest F 16 Wing on the books and it hosts on-going F 16 Type Training, F 16 Replacement Training, and Advanced TTPs for anyone who has bought F 16s from Uncle Sugar.

I have flown in 162nd exercises against foreign F 16 drivers over the years and it is great fun. The ranges over AZ, NM, UT, and NV offer the most liberal flying parameters and the gloves come off for DACT over the desert. I have mixed it up with Israeli, Singaporean, Korean, Norwegian, Belgian, Danish, etc... F 16 drivers both in the skies over AZ and in the bars of Tucson.

I actually am buds with the recently retired Wing King of the 162nd - Brig Gen Greg "Binky" Stroud. Biny started life as a Navy puke but wised up and switched over to the Blue. Obviously, he washed off his F-18 stink because he ended up wearing stars. And to be given command of the 162nd Fighter Wing is a very big deal.


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muwarrior69

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mu03eng

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2015, 04:41:35 PM »
F35B Ski Jump?

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2015/06/29/f-35-fighter-jet-nails-olympic-worthy-ski-jump-takeoff/?intcmp=features

It's how the British and Italian's choose to deploy their V/STOL aircraft.  Instead of using a catapult, they deploy a ramp so they don't have to VTOL every time.  One of the keys to making the JSF "cheap" is deploying it with foreign forces like the British.  So as part of the deal Lockheed is doing type testing for those foreign services.



"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

rocket surgeon

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2015, 08:03:37 PM »
As the article says, the US conducts international training for pilots in Arizona, i.e. allied military pilots.  The pilot in this case was a Brigadier General... that's a pretty high ranking, even for the Iraqis (i.e. if jihadists were trying to "infiltrate" the enemy in order to attack it, I'd imagine there are far easier paths than having to go through the ranks of the Iraqi Air Force to a Brig Gen).  That's a pretty stark contrast to the jihadists who sought out private flight training nearly a couple decades ago.

Then again, some of the foreign fighters in Afghanistan who the US trained to push back the Soviets in the 80s eventually used their training against the U.S. and its allies (Osama Bin Laden being one of those)... so sure, you could take the position that we should never train a foreign military because you never know when an ally might turn into an enemy, but that's horrible foreign policy.  You also can't shy away from training our allies just because they're middle eastern; after all, they are the allies who need our help the most... which is worse, a) training your allies knowing the possibility that some fighters may eventually defect or b) allowing your allies to be overtaken by the enemy knowing the certainty that all of them will defect (or be killed).

Ok, it's just that fort hood kinda sticks in my mind yet, but just trusting and verifying
don't...don't don't don't don't

keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2015, 08:08:51 PM »
It's how the British and Italian's choose to deploy their V/STOL aircraft.  Instead of using a catapult, they deploy a ramp so they don't have to VTOL every time.  One of the keys to making the JSF "cheap" is deploying it with foreign forces like the British.  So as part of the deal Lockheed is doing type testing for those foreign services.





Interesting discussion around the EFA program. I know some RAF guys who have time in the EFA and they said it was a European version of the F 15 built 35 years later. EFA is really just another teen series fighter; the EFA indexes slightly behind F 15 C/Es in most crucial operating characteristics.

The EFA and F 15 C/E have similar BVR lethality but USAF airframes have superior avionics and power plants to anything developed in Europe. Once the USAF retrofitted Eagles with APG-63 - 3 active phased arrays and ERAAMs the F 15 established a clear dogfighting advantage over anything made in Europe, Russia, or China.

F 15s also have a decisive advantage in BVR combat profile transonic and supersonic acceleration, persistence and sustained turn performance because of the F100-PW-229 power plant in both dry thrust and reheat. The Eagle also has greater internal fuel capacity which extends range and superior dash for point intercept. The EFA needs to sling external stores to match F 15 combat radius and the increased drag retards thrust:weight by more than 20%.

So why did the EU decide to build the EFA? Pride goeth before the fall. What is sad is that RAF sticks are begging for the F 35 only because the hugely expensive EFA will never hold set in any air-air engagement against next-gen stealth aircraft.


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Benny B

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2015, 11:12:48 PM »
Ok, it's just that fort hood kinda sticks in my mind yet, but just trusting and verifying

The perpetrator there, Nidal Hassan, was born in Virginia.  Lived his entire life in the U.S.  Wasn't even charged with terrorism... just another nutjob hailing from the DC area.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2015, 11:57:14 PM »
... just another nutjob hailing from the DC area.

wtfo??


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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2015, 12:30:03 AM »
The perpetrator there, Nidal Hassan, was born in Virginia.  Lived his entire life in the U.S.  Wasn't even charged with terrorism... just another nutjob hailing from the DC area.

"workplace violence"   

Benny B

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2015, 07:04:48 AM »
wtfo??

Born and raised in Arlington... that was the DC area last I checked.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

mu03eng

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2015, 07:17:29 AM »
Born and raised in Arlington... that was the DC area last I checked.

Yeah, but you don't have to be from another country to be a terrorist
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

muwarrior69

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keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2015, 07:44:17 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/03/pentagon-vaunted-f-35-earns-lousy-review-from-test-pilot-in-secret-report/?intcmp=latestnews

Your thoughts on this, Keefe.

It is hard to say what the F 35 driver's comments were without reading through the complete debrief. But a critical issue for the 35 is that is was never designed to be a turn and burn dog fighter; its design inhibits maneuverability and exacerbates its inherent lack of energy maneuverability.

Fourth gen/Teen Series fighters like the 15, 16, and 18 were really the last airframes designed for Dissimilar Aerial Combat or dog fighting. If any of these three airframes get in close to a 35 the 35 is dead. But the point is that the F 35, in concert with an integrated Airspace Battle Management System, will not have to worry about Mig 31s getting in close. Or at least that is the theory...

An important aside is that despite the nonsense depicted in the movie Top Gun, the F 14 was never intended to be a turn and burn dog fighter. It was designed for one mission: to carry a bunch of AIM 54 Phoenix Air-Air Missiles. The terminal threat to aircraft carriers was hordes of Soviet Backfires launching stream raids out of the Kola Peninsula to attack our carriers. The Tomcat was designed to fly fast and launch the AIM 54 which had a range of almost 200 nm to kill Backfires before they could launch their AS 4 ASMs.

The Navy excels at making movies...

   


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Benny B

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2015, 10:08:48 AM »
The Navy excels at making movies...

Don't sell yourself short, fly boy; Broken Arrow was the zenith of military aviation movies.

But of course, we all know why the Air Force loves this movie: John Travolta.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2015, 11:33:43 AM »
Don't sell yourself short, fly boy; Broken Arrow was the zenith of military aviation movies.

But of course, we all know why the Air Force loves this movie: John Travolta.

On a serious note, the movie Twelve O'Clock High is a masterpiece. It is required viewing for all military officers and is a mandatory business case on Leadership at Harvard Business School.

When you screen for command in the USAF you are sent to a two-week school at Langley AFB. One of the very first lessons is that a Commander is not one of the guys anymore. And that is a very hard thing to learn because the bedrock foundation of a fighter squadron is the esprit d corps and camaraderie of what the RAF calls 'mateship.' Suddenly, by virtue of an act of Congress, you are no longer one of the guys because you must make decisions that affect the careers and lives of all those exceptional men in your command.

As an aside, everyone makes fun of the USAF as being a cushy life but the reality is that in WW II the Army Air Force had more members killed in combat than the Navy and Marines Corps combined. The statistical probability of a crew making it to 25 combat sorties was incredibly small.   


http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickvaishnavi/2013/04/11/5-leadership-lessons-for-todays-executive-3/   


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mu03eng

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2015, 12:08:56 PM »
It is hard to say what the F 35 driver's comments were without reading through the complete debrief. But a critical issue for the 35 is that is was never designed to be a turn and burn dog fighter; its design inhibits maneuverability and exacerbates its inherent lack of energy maneuverability.

Fourth gen/Teen Series fighters like the 15, 16, and 18 were really the last airframes designed for Dissimilar Aerial Combat or dog fighting. If any of these three airframes get in close to a 35 the 35 is dead. But the point is that the F 35, in concert with an integrated Airspace Battle Management System, will not have to worry about Mig 31s getting in close. Or at least that is the theory...

An important aside is that despite the nonsense depicted in the movie Top Gun, the F 14 was never intended to be a turn and burn dog fighter. It was designed for one mission: to carry a bunch of AIM 54 Phoenix Air-Air Missiles. The terminal threat to aircraft carriers was hordes of Soviet Backfires launching stream raids out of the Kola Peninsula to attack our carriers. The Tomcat was designed to fly fast and launch the AIM 54 which had a range of almost 200 nm to kill Backfires before they could launch their AS 4 ASMs.

The Navy excels at making movies...

   

Feels like you are just crying out from attention from the Navy.....typical zoomie, needs attention from those above to feel good ;)

All kidding aside, Keefe is 100% correct.....the F-14 was a pig in a knife fight, bled energy too quickly or chewed up too much JP4 if you kept it in zone 4/5 to keep ahead of the energy curve.  It was a stand-off weapon, that's why they were all replaced by the Rhino's (originally slated to just replace the A-6/A-7 airframes)

Unfortunately, based on everything I'm hearing.....the Navy version (B model) of the JSF is going to be worse.  The platform was "retrofit" to be carrier capable which means they've had to slap on a bunch of reinforcing elements through out the airframe to withstand carrier shots and landings.  It's essentially the same powerplant as the A version(USAF) so the plane got heavier but the thrust stayed the same....not a great combination.

Just thinking about it from an engineering standpoint gives me nightmares...the trade-offs are insane:
80% component conformance with the rest of the variants (airfield, carrier, and V/STOL)
Stealth requirements
Carrier based performance
Air to Mud and self-defense
Survive a modern battlespace on a single power plant

I think this is going to prove to be the boondoggle of boondoggles.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

keefe

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2015, 01:06:19 PM »
Feels like you are just crying out from attention from the Navy.....typical zoomie, needs attention from those above to feel good ;)

All kidding aside, Keefe is 100% correct.....the F-14 was a pig in a knife fight, bled energy too quickly or chewed up too much JP4 if you kept it in zone 4/5 to keep ahead of the energy curve.  It was a stand-off weapon, that's why they were all replaced by the Rhino's (originally slated to just replace the A-6/A-7 airframes)

Unfortunately, based on everything I'm hearing.....the Navy version (B model) of the JSF is going to be worse.  The platform was "retrofit" to be carrier capable which means they've had to slap on a bunch of reinforcing elements through out the airframe to withstand carrier shots and landings.  It's essentially the same powerplant as the A version(USAF) so the plane got heavier but the thrust stayed the same....not a great combination.

Just thinking about it from an engineering standpoint gives me nightmares...the trade-offs are insane:
80% component conformance with the rest of the variants (airfield, carrier, and V/STOL)
Stealth requirements
Carrier based performance
Air to Mud and self-defense
Survive a modern battlespace on a single power plant

I think this is going to prove to be the boondoggle of boondoggles.


The 35 is a horrible horrible aircraft. It is a case study in how politicians make engineering impossible. At the end of the day it is the country that will lose out.


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jficke13

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Re: This one is for Keefe!
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2015, 01:44:34 PM »
Why did we give up on F22 so quickly? I was under the impression that it was light years ahead of enemy technology.

 

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