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Author Topic: Jay Bilas In The WSJ On How To Fix College Sports (hint: pay is involved)  (Read 23040 times)

Tugg Speedman

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Please point out where in that article it says tv ratings are at a 7 year low.  It says ATTENDANCE is down to a 7 year low.  Part of that is the inclusion of more DI schools, which have smaller gymnasiums and bring down the average.  Some of that is because so many games are on television that people choose to stay home.  

The final two minutes are painful, but that is easily fixed without adjusting some of the other rules.

SOME of the public likes the NBA game.  Some of the public likes the college game.  Do not assume that basketball fans like both versions.  We've done many studies over the years when I headed up sports at DTV on cross over of NBA and college basketball fans.  You would be surprised how man people like one and not the other. So if you make one game more like the other which they don't like, you risk alienating those fans as well.  Everything in moderation.

The last 2 minutes of a college game is actually better than the last 2 minutes of a NBA game in my view.  The refs can go to the monitor in th NBA, too.  Timeouts an issue in the NBA, too.  Except the NBA still gives two free throws to the best players in the world, which is mind boggling.  You could eliminate that from college hoops, but that's a major strategic concept removed if you go down that path.

And NBA ratings were down last year....by quite a bit.  http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2014/04/nba-regular-season-wrap-multi-year-lows-for-nba-tv-partners/

Correct, Attendance, not ratings.  My bad.

I agree with what you are saying that shortening the shot clock is a taste thing.  I would like more possessions per game and more of an up and down game.  That is my preference.

But, as you note the real problem is the end of the game (or half) is the painful part.  Too many stoppages, too much standing around.  More basketball, less commercials (or t-shirts on parachutes if you're at the game).

Play basketball in the last two minutes.  Not calling endless time-outs, video reviews standing around waiting for FTs and the like.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 02:50:58 PM by Heisenberg »

ChicosBailBonds

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Correct, Attendance, not ratings.  My bad.

I agree with what you are saying that shortening the shot clock is a taste thing.  I would like more possessions per game and more of an up and down game.  That is my interference.

But, as you note the real problem is the end of the game (or half) is the painful part.  Too many stoppages, too much standing around.  More basketball, less commercials (or t-shirts on parachutes if you're at the game).

Play basketball in the last two minutes.  Not calling endless time-outs, video reviews standing around waiting for FTs and the like.

Only way to solve that is you have a max amount of timeouts in the last 5 minutes, regardless if you haven't used them.  Get rid of the bonus and force into the double bonus....I think that's a bad idea.  Changing the shot clock from 35 to 30 in the last two minutes only increases in theory one possession, but I don't think in reality it really will.  In the last two minutes how often do you see a team going the full 35 in the last 2 minutes?  They're either down and need to score fast, or the they are up and the other team is fouling them to try and get the ball back.

To me, all games in all sports at the end are long.  Bring in the relief pitcher, put in the pinch runner or pinch hitter, timeouts in football, stop the clock to move the chains, run patterns that go out of bounds to stop the clock, timeouts, fouling in basketball, etc.  Hockey is the exception, but even there that is where you will see 75% of timeouts in the final minutes of a game....each team only gets one. 


muwarrior69

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To cut down on fouling near the end of the game the player gets 3 shots rather than 2 say in the last 2 minutes of the game.

ChicosBailBonds

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To cut down on fouling near the end of the game the player gets 3 shots rather than 2 say in the last 2 minutes of the game.

Three shots to make 2?  The old NBA rule?  Ugh

Or just 3 shots?   

I don't like either one, but curious what you mean.


Pakuni

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To cut down on fouling near the end of the game the player gets 3 shots rather than 2 say in the last 2 minutes of the game.

I don't see how that will cut down on fouling.
The incentive to foul in that situation is to stop the clock. That incentive will be there whether the foul results in two or three FTs.
I suppose it could lead to a game being out of reach sooner, and therefore lead to less fouling in the last 30 seconds or so. But it would also lessen the chance for a dramatic finish. I don't see how that makes the game better.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 04:12:22 PM by Pakuni »

brandx

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1. No timeouts after a made field goal.
2. 3 timeouts per team (meaning 14 timeouts per game max. instead of 18)
3. 30 second shot clock.

There, I fixed the game!!

muwarrior69

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Three shots to make 2?  The old NBA rule?  Ugh

Or just 3 shots?   

I don't like either one, but curious what you mean.



Three shots to make 3.

dgies9156

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Jay Bilas has the right idea. The NCAA is exploiting athletes, pure and simple. Time to pay them. Period.

The game is fine. But too many of the best athletes are turning pro and with the increased number of Division 1 schools, the talent is far more diluted than it used to be.

Tugg Speedman

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Jay Bilas has the right idea. The NCAA is exploiting athletes, pure and simple. Time to pay them. Period.

The game is fine. But too many of the best athletes are turning pro and with the increased number of Division 1 schools, the talent is far more diluted than it used to be.

Mark Cuban was on CNBC today.  He was asked about "drafting Kentucky Freshman."  He said he "hated it" because they are "not ready" and then said he like to see the NBA revise the Collective Bargaining Agreement to "keep them in school longer."

ChicosBailBonds

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Jay Bilas has the right idea. The NCAA is exploiting athletes, pure and simple. Time to pay them. Period.

The game is fine. But too many of the best athletes are turning pro and with the increased number of Division 1 schools, the talent is far more diluted than it used to be.

exploiting....goodness.  They are not being exploited...453,000 athletes play each year under the NCAA umbrella.  People continue to focus on the .001%.

Boozemon Barro

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exploiting....goodness.  They are not being exploited...453,000 athletes play each year under the NCAA umbrella.  People continue to focus on the .001%.

Well some are obviously being exploited while most hit the societal jackpot and get a scholarship to play a sport that basically nobody will pay to watch. So ~448,000 athletes get to reap the benefits of the revenue that they did nothing to help generate.

MU82

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exploiting....goodness.  They are not being exploited...453,000 athletes play each year under the NCAA umbrella.  People continue to focus on the .001%.

When Bilas says NCAA tournament is a crapshoot or agrees with you on anything else, you use his viewpoint to support how wonderfully right you are. When he says athletes are being exploited and probably should be paid, which you disagree with, he can't possibly be right.

Got it.
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ChicosBailBonds

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When Bilas says NCAA tournament is a crapshoot or agrees with you on anything else, you use his viewpoint to support how wonderfully right you are. When he says athletes are being exploited and probably should be paid, which you disagree with, he can't possibly be right.

Got it.


Correct.  I can think for myself, as can others including Bilas.  I'm wrong at times, he's wrong at times, you are wrong at times.  No one is all knowing.  No one should be agreeing with everyone all the time. 

I think people in this country have a preverse way of playing the word exploit.  How much did Sam Dekker's initial contract just go up because of his "exploitation" the past two weeks.  Give me a break on the exploitation crap, it does a disservice to the word and to actual people that truly are exploited.

Got it.


MU82

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Correct.  I can think for myself, as can others including Bilas.  I'm wrong at times, he's wrong at times, you are wrong at times.  No one is all knowing.  No one should be agreeing with everyone all the time. 

I think people in this country have a preverse way of playing the word exploit.  How much did Sam Dekker's initial contract just go up because of his "exploitation" the past two weeks.  Give me a break on the exploitation crap, it does a disservice to the word and to actual people that truly are exploited.

Got it.



Got it.

And now we all can confidently say the NCAA tournament is NOT a crapshoot because it doesn't matter than Bilas and Al and Bobby Knight say it is!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

ChicosBailBonds

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Well some are obviously being exploited while most hit the societal jackpot and get a scholarship to play a sport that basically nobody will pay to watch. So ~448,000 athletes get to reap the benefits of the revenue that they did nothing to help generate.

Define exploited to me and explain how they are exploited.

Before you answer, I will remind you they receive a free education, free tutoring, free food, free shelter, free clothing, access to some of the best coaching in the world, access to alumni networks that 99% of regular students couldn't dream of getting, and access to show off their wares to future employers in their sports...for free.

How are they being exploited and if that is exploitation, then I truly feel bad for people that are truly exploited in this world. 

MU82

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Define exploited to me and explain how they are exploited.

Before you answer, I will remind you they receive a free education, free tutoring, free food, free shelter, free clothing, access to some of the best coaching in the world, access to alumni networks that 99% of regular students couldn't dream of getting, and access to show off their wares to future employers in their sports...for free.

How are they being exploited and if that is exploitation, then I truly feel bad for people that are truly exploited in this world. 

UNC players were steered to classes that didn't exist just to keep them eligible.

Were they forced at gunpoint to take those classes? No, they were not. But they were 18-21-year-olds, and they listened to adult authority figures who were telling them to take those classes. Why were those mentors and advisers, who were supposed to have the kids' best interests at heart, steering them to those classes? Because the kids in no uncertain terms were there to play basketball, not to get an education. (Lots of UNC football players were steered into those sham classes, too.)

The adults -- and it quite likely came from Roy, and possibly from above him-- all but guaranteed those "student-athletes" wouldn't be students. All so Roy could finally win the title that had eluded him forever.

A few of those basketball and football players went on to riches in pro sports, but most did not. Nor did those non-pros get an education, which theoretically is what a university is for.

You do not feel this was exploitation?

I know that is just one example, but only a naive person would think UNC is the only place stuff like that happened. And it almost surely is still happening on many campuses.

As for the scholarship, a student who earns a full ride to a university for being a saxophone savant can earn money playing saxophone for the symphony in that town even while also saxophoning for the university. The editor of the MU Tribune used to get a full ride (and maybe still does) but also could sell his/her work to the Journal and Sentinel. As Bilas correctly says, athletes are unjustly denied such a basic right to monetize their skills during their time at a university.

Although I think that's a form of exploitation, I am not in love with the term "exploitation." Because you are right, Chicos, the word conjures up images far worse than what is going on in college athletics.

As with most things in life, there are degrees. It's gray, not black and white.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

ChicosBailBonds

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Got it.

And now we all can confidently say the NCAA tournament is NOT a crapshoot because it doesn't matter than Bilas and Al and Bobby Knight say it is!

You can define it any way you want.  Some call it a crapshoot, some do not.  I put up the interview of the DePaul Prof of Mathematics who basically said either point of view is correct depending on what you mean by crapshoot.

ChicosBailBonds

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UNC players were steered to classes that didn't exist just to keep them eligible.

Were they forced at gunpoint to take those classes? No, they were not. But they were 18-21-year-olds, and they listened to adult authority figures who were telling them to take those classes. Why were those mentors and advisers, who were supposed to have the kids' best interests at heart, steering them to those classes? Because the kids in no uncertain terms were there to play basketball, not to get an education. (Lots of UNC football players were steered into those sham classes, too.)

The adults -- and it quite likely came from Roy, and possibly from above him-- all but guaranteed those "student-athletes" wouldn't be students. All so Roy could finally win the title that had eluded him forever.

A few of those basketball and football players went on to riches in pro sports, but most did not. Nor did those non-pros get an education, which theoretically is what a university is for.

You do not feel this was exploitation?

I know that is just one example, but only a naive person would think UNC is the only place stuff like that happened. And it almost surely is still happening on many campuses.

As for the scholarship, a student who earns a full ride to a university for being a saxophone savant can earn money playing saxophone for the symphony in that town even while also saxophoning for the university. The editor of the MU Tribune used to get a full ride (and maybe still does) but also could sell his/her work to the Journal and Sentinel. As Bilas correctly says, athletes are unjustly denied such a basic right to monetize their skills during their time at a university.

Although I think that's a form of exploitation, I am not in love with the term "exploitation." Because you are right, Chicos, the word conjures up images far worse than what is going on in college athletics.

As with most things in life, there are degrees. It's gray, not black and white.

You are proving my point I made the other day.  You are taking the corner of corner cases and extrapolating.  How many kids playing in the NCAA tournament are going to the NBA?  25?  Maybe?  How many of them are realizing a dream come true by playing in it?  90%? 

You can always find examples that are extreme.  Even the UNC example may have come down to a few kids, but until we know all the information we don't know yet.  Plenty of UNC kids have said it's absolute crap, while a few others have remained silent.  I have no doubt that UNC pulled some nonsense based on what has been discovered so far.  Question is, to whom and for how many? 

For every UNC there is a Butler that actually made kids go to class the DAY OF THE NCAA FINAL they played in.  Think about that.  Of course that is never talked about.

I just think exploitation is such a charged word it is ridiculous to throw out in this context.  I also think Jay does a tremendous disservice in his column when he says things like "the NCAA raked in $800 million last year"....with the number of idiots we have in this country, how many of them think that is $800 million profit free and clear?  A crapload, I guarantee it.  What Jay doesn't say is where does 94% of that money go?  Right back to scholarships, running championships, insurance program for athletes, etc, etc.  Him leaving those key things out shows what an agenda he has on this issue, because he doesn't want the reader to know where all that money is going.   It's dishonest by him.

MU82

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You are proving my point I made the other day.  You are taking the corner of corner cases and extrapolating.  How many kids playing in the NCAA tournament are going to the NBA?  25?  Maybe?  How many of them are realizing a dream come true by playing in it?  90%?  

You can always find examples that are extreme.  Even the UNC example may have come down to a few kids, but until we know all the information we don't know yet.  Plenty of UNC kids have said it's absolute crap, while a few others have remained silent.  I have no doubt that UNC pulled some nonsense based on what has been discovered so far.  Question is, to whom and for how many?

Agree. It's almost surely more than you think it is and less than I think it is!

For every UNC there is a Butler that actually made kids go to class the DAY OF THE NCAA FINAL they played in.  Think about that.  Of course that is never talked about.

Well, yes it is talked about ... or you wouldn't have known about it. Here we come to what defines "news." It shouldn't be news that college kids go to class. It definitely is news when a major university -- The Pride of The South -- invents fake classes and steers athletes to those classes for the sole purpose of keeping them eligible, winning games and making money. And it wasn't an isolated case; it is documented as having gone on for a decade! I like to think you are aware of which is bigger "news."

I just think exploitation is such a charged word it is ridiculous to throw out in this context.  I also think Jay does a tremendous disservice in his column when he says things like "the NCAA raked in $800 million last year"....with the number of idiots we have in this country, how many of them think that is $800 million profit free and clear?  A crapload, I guarantee it.  What Jay doesn't say is where does 94% of that money go?  Right back to scholarships, running championships, insurance program for athletes, etc, etc. Him leaving those key things out shows what an agenda he has on this issue, because he doesn't want the reader to know where all that money is going.   It's dishonest by him.

And coaches' salaries. And assistant coaches' salaries. And "academic advisers'" salaries. And building of sports cathedrals. And it all feeds upon itself. Gotta spend the money because it's a non-profit. My wife is a nurse and it's the same thing. It's a non-profit, so the hospital CEO makes $7 million and they build facilities they don't need ... but even the nurses who get recognized as the best get 1.5% raises. Which is another form of exploitation. Although, again, I do agree with you that "exploitation" is a charged word and probably isn't the best to describe any of this. Bilas was just saying what he thinks is true -- as are you, as am I.
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MarquetteDano

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I think I am in the extreme minority but is anyone else getting a little tired of Bilas' know it all way of presenting on a topic?

I know most people think the man can do no wrong but I am getting sick of Bilas.  If he stuck to announcing the games I would probably be okay with him but I am tired of his act.

Boozemon Barro

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Define exploited to me and explain how they are exploited.

Before you answer, I will remind you they receive a free education, free tutoring, free food, free shelter, free clothing, access to some of the best coaching in the world, access to alumni networks that 99% of regular students couldn't dream of getting, and access to show off their wares to future employers in their sports...for free.

How are they being exploited and if that is exploitation, then I truly feel bad for people that are truly exploited in this world. 

Exploitation - The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.

The NCAA is a wage fixing cartel made up of institutions that have agreed to not pay any players. The whole purpose of the NCAA is to enforce these rules, because without oversight the institutions would obviously break these rules in order to attract the best talent. This talent is clearly more valuable than all those free things you mentioned above, and I believe it is unfair to deny them this value. I believe the institutions do it to keep the money in their control.
  Isn't it common knowledge that large amounts of money are currently being funneled to recruits and players at many big time schools? The value of good players to these institutions is apparent. So while it might not be an African diamond mine, it's still exploitation. The degree of immorality associated with the exploitation does not change that fact.


MU82

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The NCAA is a wage fixing cartel made up of institutions that have agreed to not pay any players. The whole purpose of the NCAA is to enforce these rules, because without oversight the institutions would obviously break these rules in order to attract the best talent. This talent is clearly more valuable than all those free things you mentioned above, and I believe it is unfair to deny them this value. I believe the institutions do it to keep the money in their control.


Every word of this is so true. It is pretty funny to hear an ultra-conservative, free-market Republican like Chicos arguing that these workers -- and that's what the athletes are -- shouldn't be allowed to compete for whatever wages they merited on the open market. That's capitalism defined, for crissakes!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

MarquetteDano

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Every word of this is so true. It is pretty funny to hear an ultra-conservative, free-market Republican like Chicos arguing that these workers -- and that's what the athletes are -- shouldn't be allowed to compete for whatever wages they merited on the open market. That's capitalism defined, for crissakes!

Not that I want to get into a political debate but if you argue Chicos' conservative leanings don't mesh with his stance on the NCAA, couldn't one argue that if a person has liberal leanings on economics (and thus a believer in the redistribution of income in fiscal policy), that is the opposite of saying I want all of the money to go to a small percentage of athletes and screw all of the athletes in non-revenue sports?

Seems like one could argue hypocrisy in both sides of this one.

Boozemon Barro

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Exploitation - The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.

The NCAA is a wage fixing cartel made up of institutions that have agreed to not pay any players. The whole purpose of the NCAA is to enforce these rules, because without oversight the institutions would obviously break these rules in order to attract the best talent. This talent is clearly more valuable than all those free things you mentioned above, and I believe it is unfair to deny them this value. I believe the institutions do it to keep the money in their control.
  Isn't it common knowledge that large amounts of money are currently being funneled to recruits and players at many big time schools? The value of good players to these institutions is apparent. So while it might not be an African diamond mine, it's still exploitation. The degree of immorality associated with the exploitation does not change that fact.




MU82

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Not that I want to get into a political debate but if you argue Chicos' conservative leanings don't mesh with his stance on the NCAA, couldn't one argue that if a person has liberal leanings on economics (and thus a believer in the redistribution of income in fiscal policy), that is the opposite of saying I want all of the money to go to a small percentage of athletes and screw all of the athletes in non-revenue sports?

Seems like one could argue hypocrisy in both sides of this one.

I am fiscally moderate.

And I have never once said that only the revenue-sports athletes should get a piece of the pie. Cross country and volleyball athletes also are full-time workers.

I do not pretend to know exactly how the money should be divvied up. I just believe what's taking place now doesn't seem equitable.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson