4 ,on 5

[tower912]

They may be better basketball players in the sense that they can probably beat Derrick in a game of horse or 1-on-1, but none of them have played more consistently or contributed more this season than Derrick.  

[Wojo'sMojo]

Duane? Not consistent enough. Fischer? He started great but hasn't delivered in Big East play. Sandy? Maybe in a year or two, but certainly not yet. Jajuan? Really? Do you watch the games?

Casino is the only one. Juan has been marginalized by good competition. In non-con he put up 15.7/7.8 against buy opposition and 6.8/5.7 against high majors.

Derrick is 7th in eFG% and 5th in assist rate in Big East play. He's shooting 38% from 3 in league play. And he's the most reliable defender on the team. Carlino may be better, but no knee else is. That's part of the problem.

He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.

[GGGG]

He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.

I agree with you on 3 point percentage.

But I don't on the W/L record issue.  If you swapped JJJ's minutes with Derrick's they wouldn't be winning more.

[brewcity77]

He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.

Junior made 14 his senior year in 15 more games. Derrick's shooting is just add relevant.

The record is far more a product of everyone else. If Derrick had players like Crowder, Blue, & DJO around him he'd have a better record. Instead, he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.

[eg021]

he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.

Carlino, Luke and Duane which one do you think Derrick is better than?

[Wojo'sMojo]

Junior made 14 his senior year in 15 more games. Derrick's shooting is just add relevant.

The record is far more a product of everyone else. If Derrick had players like Crowder, Blue, & DJO around him he'd have a better record. Instead, he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.

Of course, nothing is ever his fault  

[GGGG]

Of course, nothing is ever his fault 

Intellectually weak.  No one said that.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Intellectually weak.  No one said that.

Oh really? "The record is far more of a product of everyone else," was the quote I was referencing. Intellectually weak? You're socially weak, go out and make some friends and quit sitting on a message board for 18 hours a day.

[GGGG]

Oh really? "The record is far more of a product of everyone else," was the quote I was referencing. Intellectually weak? You're socially weak, go out and make some friends and quit sitting on a message board for 18 hours a day.

Changing the subject.  Even more intellectually weak.

[BallBoy]

He's made 8 three's all year and 10 total in his career. I don't understand why posters keep bringing up his 3 pt% like he is some kind of sniper out there now. Here's a good stat from Derrick...the team is 27-22 with him as the starting point guard. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that will be below .500 by the time he's done here. That is the stat that matters the most.

3pg% is only utilized because the 6ft sag theory. In that theory the defense sags 6ft off of Derrick because he can't hit a three to save his life. On the flip side the player that most in this club say should get the time is JaJuan.  If the 3P% is the deciding factor then JaJuan is worse and he has also less 3fm on significantly more attempts. So is the defense going to play him at three point line or are they going to also sag? The double team has to come from somewhere.  Right now, Derrick is playing a more complete game which is why he plays.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Changing the subject.  Even more intellectually weak.

Whatever you say Scoop Stalker...keep plugging away!

[NersEllenson]

Junior made 14 his senior year in 15 more games. Derrick's shooting is just add relevant.

The record is far more a product of everyone else. If Derrick had players like Crowder, Blue, & DJO around him he'd have a better record. Instead, he is the second best player on this team. The problem is not one player but rather the team as a whole.

And Derrick has made 11, 3 point shots for his whole entire MU career!  On 12.5% shooting combined with his stellar 47% career FT percentage.  Not to mention the team's record being 27-26 while he is "orchestrating" the offense and "getting guys into their positions," "playing to the scouting report," and "knowing his role."  LOL

Of course, nothing is ever his fault 

Of course it isn't Wojo - nor is it ever our head coaches fault.  Last season according to the same crowd that won't dare criticize and lay blame at Derrick, or Buzz's feet  - instead blamed the "leadership" of Jamil and Davante.  Hard to "lead" a team to victory when the guy on your team who is being played more minutes than any other player isn't even guarded as your team's PG.

[NersEllenson]

Ok, I will play.  Cordell Henry's record as point guard.  He had a .500 career record until his senior year with Wade.  If I look at just his record, I would say that he wasn't very successful, maybe even less successful than Wilson.  However; he was one of the better players on bad teams.  His first two years were playing with Brian Wardle who many consider one of the best in MU history.  Why did they have a .500 record if we had a good PG?  Maybe because there were holes elsewhere.

1998–99   Mike Deane   14–15   6–10      
1999–00   Tom Crean   15–14   8–8      
2000–01   Tom Crean   15–14   9–7      
2001–02   Tom Crean   26–7   13–3

If I were to look at the point guards of the last 15-20yrs, I would rank them as follows:
Diener
Henry
DJ
Buycks
Cadougan
Acker
Wilson

I would say that based solely on the PG position it is hard to say that team record could directly be attributed to PG play. I mean the second best PG had the second worse record.  I mean a bad record.  I compare that with Cadougan who was in the lower half of point guards and he has a pretty good record. 

I look at Diener's last two season which were not good

2003–04   Tom Crean   19–12   8–8      
2004–05   Tom Crean   19–12   7–9

When I look at the best teams they had at least three players who could take over a game.
Final four team - Novak, Wade, Diener, Jackson, Merritt
Triplet: DJ, Hayward, Matthews, McNeal
Buzz's years: DJO, Vander, Crowder, Butler

Not only were there three people who could take over there were people in key positions who performed well. 

If I look at this years team who can take over a game:
Duane and Carlino.  Both can be taken out of a game.  Fischer maybe.  Has Juan, JJJ, Sandy, or Steve shown they can take over a game week in and week out.  No. 

So let's say we kick Derrick to the curb.  That would mean that JJJ would have to step up at the three guard.  When looking at his stats, he is a worse three point shooter, worse FG shooter, lower assists, higher TOs, fewer offensive and defensive rebounds and not nearly as good of a defender.  I haven't even touched the intangibles such as court presence, leadership, hardworking, character because they aren't needed. So would the 6ft sag go away if JJJ were to play more?

How does our 4 compare against the Top 25?  How about our 5?  If we were to move our 3, how would our three rate?  So if you could make an all-star team of the last 15 years how many players would you take from this years and last years teams?  I might not take anyone.

So let's compare Derrick against our other top PGs.  What was Dominic James FT and 3P-shooting percentage his Sr Yr?  I will help you...worse than Derrick.  His Offensive Rating was 104.7 to 104.3.  How is it that a similar statistical PG is consider one of our best and the other is unserviceable.  Is it because James had more Points but he was also shooting it 4 times as much?

I do think coaches make bad decisions but they work themselves out over time.  I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player he barely knew.  I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player that isn't the future of the team.  I don't see Wojo risking his career for a player who reminds him of himself.  Coaches are paid to win games and they put the best team out there and over time it corrects itself.  How many coaches have you seen put a worse team out there? In order for your theory to work you need two separate coaching staffs who can't evaluate talent or who want to lose.  In order for my theory to work, I just have to look at the stats and alternatives.

Nice post Ballboy.  I agree with most of what you wrote.  I agree this team and most teams that are any good desperately need 3 scoring options.  We all know without a doubt Derrick isn't going to be that 3rd option.  Since Burton bailed on Wojo, in my view, the most likely guy who CAN* step up and be a 3rd scorer on this team is JJJ.  The numbers bear it out when he gets to play 25+ per game.

Wojo isn't "risking his career" by playing Derrick.  Wojo knows he has a longer leash than 1 year.  It isn't a stretch whatsoever to say the Wojo very much LIKES Derrick as a person/player as Derrick shares many of the same qualities Wojo did as a player/person.  Coaches do develop biases at times and favorites, and will give the benefit of a doubt to a player they favor.  The problem is, Derrick isn't even CLOSE to the player Wojo was, nor is Derrick surrounded by McDonald's All Americans as was Wojo at Duke.

Lastly, regarding Cordell - you mention he is the 2nd best PG we've had the last 15 years, yet his teams weren't winners.  I subscribe that his teams and the talent around him coming off the Deane years was awful, and therefore he alone couldn't get the team to be a winner.  I'd also say if you took Cordell's stats and added them to the roster last year or this year, both of these teams are NCAA tourney teams without question.

[brewcity77]

Of course, nothing is ever his fault  

It's not Derrick's fault that he's the second best player on the team. The team as a whole is the worst in a decade. If Matt and Derrick were Novak and Diener we might still be a NIT team. They aren't, so we aren't. Derrick's not great, but we've done more with lesser point guards. He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position. But they had NBA talent around them.

[NersEllenson]

It's not Derrick's fault that he's the second best player on the team. The team as a whole is the worst in a decade. If Matt and Derrick were Novak and Diener we might still be a NIT team. They aren't, so we aren't. Derrick's not great, but we've done more with lesser point guards. He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position. But they had NBA talent around them.

How do you explain us from being an Elite 8 team, 2 seasons ago, to missing the NIT last year?  There was not NBA talent on the Elite 8 team?  Just 2, NBA D-Leaguer's (Vander and Lockett), much like Mayo and Jamil the next year.

If you really believe Derrick Wilson is better than Junior Cadougan as a PG, you are beyond help, and beyond delusional. 

 

[Wojo'sMojo]

It's not Derrick's fault that he's the second best player on the team. The team as a whole is the worst in a decade. If Matt and Derrick were Novak and Diener we might still be a NIT team. They aren't, so we aren't. Derrick's not great, but we've done more with lesser point guards. He's better than Junior or Buycks were at the position. But they had NBA talent around them.

No, he's not better than Junior or Buycks. Wait are you actually saying he's better than Buycks?!

[BallBoy]

Nice post Ballboy.  I agree with most of what you wrote.  I agree this team and most teams that are any good desperately need 3 scoring options.  We all know without a doubt Derrick isn't going to be that 3rd option.  Since Burton bailed on Wojo, in my view, the most likely guy who CAN* step up and be a 3rd scorer on this team is JJJ.  The numbers bear it out when he gets to play 25+ per game.

Wojo isn't "risking his career" by playing Derrick.  Wojo knows he has a longer leash than 1 year.  It isn't a stretch whatsoever to say the Wojo very much LIKES Derrick as a person/player as Derrick shares many of the same qualities Wojo did as a player/person.  Coaches do develop biases at times and favorites, and will give the benefit of a doubt to a player they favor.  The problem is, Derrick isn't even CLOSE to the player Wojo was, nor is Derrick surrounded by McDonald's All Americans as was Wojo at Duke.

Lastly, regarding Cordell - you mention he is the 2nd best PG we've had the last 15 years, yet his teams weren't winners.  I subscribe that his teams and the talent around him coming off the Deane years was awful, and therefore he alone couldn't get the team to be a winner.  I'd also say if you took Cordell's stats and added them to the roster last year or this year, both of these teams are NCAA tourney teams without question.

JJJ hasn't stepped up and it isn't due to playing time.  Even in his 25+ minutes he laid clunkers.  Check his OSU stats and even Providence when he was 3-13.  In the games that he did well, we were playing some of the worse competition.  You failed to mention the Tennessee game which is a Top 2 win and he only played 15 yet we won.  The four games which impact the quoted average were ASU, UT Martin, Morgan State and North Dakota (Wilson nearly had a double double).  ASU is worse than we are and the other three aren't good.  Against Alabama A&M, also not good, he was 4-12 and played close to your 25 minute threshold.  Against good competition, he hasn't done nearly as well.

If Wojo doesn't win, the talent doesn't follow.  Don't you think a good amount of Buzz's success in attracting talent was what he did in his first two years.  Playing someone who isn't going to help you win because you like him isn't going to set a great foundation of success.  Most playing time is determine prior to the game.  You don't plan it to a tee but you know generally.  Why wouldn't Wojo plan to play JaJuan more?  Most likely he isn't showing him what he needs to in practice.  When in games and he makes the same mistake as practice then he most likely will get pulled.  

Let's say I take Juan or JaJuan and replace him with Crowder or Butler.  Couldn't we say the same thing?  The team would be better? Wouldn't adding Cordell mean less time for players such as JaJuan making the reliance on him stepping up also less?  In your statement you are saying if we had better players we'd be a better team. Well, duh.  We don't though so we need to play the players that give us the best shot of winning.  Right now that is Derrick.

I wouldn't be surprised if next year Sandy gets more playing time then JJJ.    

[BM1090]

How do you explain us from being an Elite 8 team, 2 seasons ago, to missing the NIT last year?  There was not NBA talent on the Elite 8 team?  Just 2, NBA D-Leaguer's (Vander and Lockett), much like Mayo and Jamil the next year.

If you really believe Derrick Wilson is better than Junior Cadougan as a PG, you are beyond help, and beyond delusional. 

 

You keep referencing that the elite 8 team had 2 d leaguers, which is the same as last year. Well that elite 8 team had Blue, Jamil, Mayo, Lockett, and Gardner. So that's a fringe NBA player, and 4 d leaguers. Last year we had 3 d leaguers and that's it. Mayo and Wilson were apart of both teams.

[Afroman]

Quardell Young at UW-Whitewater is 10 times better than Derrick Wilson.

[tower912]

We can all name dozens of point guards better than Derrick.   How many of them are currently on the MU roster?

[g0lden3agle]

Ners- who taught you how to use commas?

[MU B2002]

Ners- who taught you how to use commas?

#Highschoolbasketball

[Dr. Blackheart]

Serious question, is there some training for ex-MU AD alums about arguing the same points over and over on an infinite loop under the premise that you will convince someone, any one, to change their dug in opinions?

[MerrittsMustache]

Serious question, is there some training for ex-MU AD alums about arguing the same points over and over on an infinite loop under the premise that you will convince someone, any one, to change their dug in opinions?

Instead of ignoring Ners, we should all just start "agreeing" with him!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How do you explain us from being an Elite 8 team, 2 seasons ago, to missing the NIT last year?  There was not NBA talent on the Elite 8 team?  Just 2, NBA D-Leaguer's (Vander and Lockett), much like Mayo and Jamil the next year.

So what your saying is we went from having a fringe NBA player (Vander) and 3 NBA D-Leaguers to only 2 NBA D-Leaguers? Sounds like a drop in talent to me!

We all recognize that Derrick was one of the main issues last season. What we don't accept is that he was the only problem last season. Honestly, Derrick put up a stat line of exactly what I expected last season as did Davante, Juan, and Otule. Dawson and Jake actually greatly exceeded my expectations for them. I was more disappointed in Mayo, Jamil, Steve, and Jajuan. The four of them vastly underperformed compared to what I expected out of them. When four players who are supposed to be either starters or key parts of your rotation underperform, and the only two who overperform are the two players who were supposed to be on the end of your bench, that is not a good recipe for a winning season.