How bright is our future?

[NersEllenson]

Ners you're absolutely wrong again and guilty of selective ignorance regarding stats.

Juan Anderson - 13-14 ORtg 93.  14-15 ORtg 102.4
Derrick Wilson - 13-14 ORtg 99.  14-15 ORtg 106.6
Steve Taylor - 13-14 ORtg 82.7.  14-15 ORtg 106.1

JuJuan Johnson - 13-14 ORtg 110.4.  14-15 ORtg 89.6

Three out of our four returning players who played any playing time last season have improved their offensive games yet you're going to take the one guy whose numbers have dropped and use that to evaluate Wojo's coaching/influence in his game???

I have always supported your ability to have a different opinion, but when your own stats don't line up with your argument it really makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

The topic at hand was discussing the coaching of JJJ Matty...Nowhere did I say "Wojo's coaching isn't improving ANY of our players O-Ratings."

The point is coaching different guys different ways.  Interestingly, Burton went from 101.4 at a high usage rate as a freshman, to 95.4 (against only weaker competition of non-conference play) under Wojo.

As for Derrick, Steve and Juan - no doubt they have improved in O-Rating- yet we are talking some pretty abysmal ratings as starting points last season.

[NersEllenson]

Thanks for the info and setting the record straight. Nice to have some actual facts presented here.

So the OPINIONS of a team manager are now facts that have more merit than do the observations of those who have family ties to current and former players on the team?  Uh Okay.   

[Shark]

JaJuan will be fine...everything with be fine. You all need to look at the schedule and check those scores. We went to OT with two great teams these last few games. We should have beaten Omaha and DePaul but stupid things happen in this sport. MU could have easily beaten Georgetown twice, Xavier on the road, Butler, and St Johns. All teams that look to have a lot more talent and also have a set foundation to their team...

Flip side: We have a new coach, new system, and a ton of guys who haven't had important minutes in their past (except Carlino and Derrick). So I don't think you all need to flip out over close losses. Hell yeah it woulda been sweet for MU to be 14-7 right now instead of 10-11 but you can't really fault the effort. Wojo is still learning as well. The entire coaching staff is learning with Wojo this year. Take a step back and stay positive.

[GGGG]

So...was it just acknowledged that Texas Western is a family member of JJJ?  And that he is posting negative stuff about JJJ's head coach in a public forum?

LOL....how pathetic.

[NersEllenson]

So...was it just acknowledged that Texas Western is a family member of JJJ?  And that he is posting negative stuff about JJJ's head coach in a public forum?

LOL....how pathetic.

You can speculate all you want.  Doesn't mean it is right.  Or wrong.  What is funny though is how many here who have NO ties whatsoever want to opine about the realities of the team while discrediting those opinions of guys tied much more closely.  (And I'm not saying I'm one of the guys tied much more closely.)

However, I wouldn't make the assumption that Western is a family member of JJJ just because he is supportive of JJJ.

[mattyv1908]

The topic at hand was discussing the coaching of JJJ Matty...Nowhere did I say "Wojo's coaching isn't improving ANY of our players O-Ratings."

The point is coaching different guys different ways.  Interestingly, Burton went from 101.4 at a high usage rate as a freshman, to 95.4 (against only weaker competition of non-conference play) under Wojo.

As for Derrick, Steve and Juan - no doubt they have improved in O-Rating- yet we are talking some pretty abysmal ratings as starting points last season.

Ners, here is your exact quote so it will be harder for you to squirm your way out of what you actually said.

"Furthermore - some want to throw around O-Rating as a holy grail of a stat around here (which I'm not a huge fan of for a number of reasons), yet if you like - would you care to explain how Wojo's coaching/influence have resulted in JJJ's O-Rating dropping from 108.9 as a freshman to 88.2 as a sophomore??  Seems something isn't clicking."

What were your implications really Ners?

And since you brought up JJJ's ORtg in the first place as an example of Wojo's 'coaching/influence' being detrimental towards JJJ, how can you honestly suggest JJJ (89.6) deserves some of Derrick's (106.6) minutes?  It's pretty glaringly obvious based on almost all predictive measures who the better player is at this point.

[onepost]

Glad you can at least recognize this fact.  So why then, does Wojo INSIST on playing 1 of those 3 guys 35 minutes per game (when he eats up a guard position - that is also played by a high potential, 4/5-star sophomore)?  Juan you can justify his minutes - as at this point there isn't quite another guy like him on the team.  Steve Taylor isn't getting many minutes - so his playing time is in line with what it should be.

But - Wojo had a guy in Burton that very easily could have filled Juan or Derrick's role.  Duane and Carlino are more than capable of playing/trading off the PG position - yet in your words - Wojo continues to play "who has NO business playing major parts of a rotation?"

There are a lot of ways to teach the game - and in my observation - the way Wojo is going about trying to teach the game to JJJ - it's the wrong approach for JJJ as a player/personality.  Furthermore, it is generally wrong to have double standards with regard to your patience/leash for players being allowed to play through mistakes.

Furthermore - some want to throw around O-Rating as a holy grail of a stat around here (which I'm not a huge fan of for a number of reasons), yet if you like - would you care to explain how Wojo's coaching/influence have resulted in JJJ's O-Rating dropping from 108.9 as a freshman to 88.2 as a sophomore??  Seems something isn't clicking.

I made that "who has NO business playing major parts of a rotation" comment as more of an indictment of our roster's undeniable limitations this season than our coach making mistakes in who gets playing time.  And no, I don't include Todd, Deonte, Dawson as a part of the roster.  I've moved on and so should you.  Wojo made it clear from the onset he wants to establish his own culture, one that differed greatly from Buzz's.  Todd didn't fit that (hasn't fit anywhere), Deonte struggled greatly in this system and along with the passing of his mother, felt MU was no longer the place for him.  I was obviously bummed out but understood while he is a stellar talent, he just did not mesh with what Wojo looks for and he wasn't willing to change his playing style (like what JJJ is doing this season) and opted to go to Transfer U.  It's hard to argue against that, and it's important for Wojo to go out and find talented guys that do what Deonte was unwilling to.  He's done a damn good job of it thus far.

As for Derrick, I think he has actually played pretty well this season.  He has improved greatly offensively from where he was at last year to at least being a threat, and even then he's awfully limited (as mattyv's stats show).  He is getting to the basket when outside of Duane and Matt, we have no one on this team who has shown the ability/willingness to consistently do that.  And while some may inflate his defensive prowess, he is a great defender and rebounder for his size.  Plain and simple.  He had a large role in keeping Roosevelt Jones to only 2 points yesterday in fact.  So in a season where we are as limited in talent and depth as it gets, they've both emerged as decent players.

Derrick and Juan were two of the nicest guys I got to know while managing, and couldn't be better ambassadors of the program.  But Buzz missed on them as high-level prospects.  Clearly.  We all know this.  We all know their limitations.  So why continue to harp on that fact?  Wojo has helped turn both of them into decent players this year and I've been impressed with both of them.  But at the end of the day, you know their obvious limitations and deal with the fact that they just aren't that talented at this level.  Derrick has been a better player than JJJ this year and while I agree with you that I am just waiting for something to click with JJJ where he lives up to his hype and deserves more minutes (ala Sandy), he has struggled with changing the way he plays this year.  But I do like that when someone has played very well, Wojo sticks with them (Steve against St. Johns, Duane a number of games early, Sandy, even Jajuan yesterday).  Something Buzz was terrible at doing, you know as well as anyone with how often you bring up Deonte's lack of usage while he was efficient last season.

Derrick and Juan graduate in May.  We'll bring in more talent at that point.  But they are a part of this team and my school so I will continue to pull for them as long as they put that jersey on.  I've accepted their shortcomings and watch the games accordingly because we don't have many options this year.  Starting next season that changes.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I talked to my manager buddy yesterday after the game (hadn't seen him all semester really) and we talked about all the close losses, how the team is handling it, so on and so forth.  At one point I mentioned that it was encouraging to see JJJ play within himself and have a much better game yesterday relative to what the past month had been like.  I asked him what his thoughts were on JJJ maybe wanting to leave after the season and he laughed in my face.  Said from what he has seen (need I remind everyone these guys interact on a DAILY basis), Jajuan is putting in the effort and trying to becoming a better contributor to this team/program.  Some times that means changing the way you go about the game (Does anyone think Buzz and Wojo are similar in the way they approach players and playing style???).  But that takes time and can be frustrating.  And wouldn't you know it, he logged 17 minutes yesterday and played pretty well.

I only bring this up because it bothers me when people on this board present their points as 100% stone-cold truth.  That Wojo is playing "mind games" with guys, that the team is "giving up" on Wojo and not fighting because their "motivation is sapped" (Texas Western, that may have taken the cake as dumbest unnatural carnal knowledgeing comment I've read on this board is a loooooonnnnnng time, and Ners posts here).  I don't post on this board with certainty unless I know what I'm saying has been backed by someone close to the team.  So quit instigating, stirring the pot, spreading baseless rumors, because it makes this board toxic and I love coming here for MUBB news.

At the end of the day, any rational poster knew what this year was going to be like.  We had a first-year coach, 3 first-year players who have been called upon heavily to contribute, 3 upperclassmen who have no business being major parts of a rotation, JJJ (already mentioned), and a one-year rental in Carlino.  Little size and comical depth.  Inexperienced talent and experienced frustration.  What did you honestly expect from Wojo in year 1?  Todd Mayo did not belong here.  Deonte and Dawson felt this wasn't their place for different reasons.  He's building a CULTURE and starting with a fresh slate.  Personally, my expectations have been more than surpassed, especially since the Big East has been so solid this year.  Take away the first 6 minutes of Seton Hall second half and this team has been in EVERY SINGLE GAME.  Every one.  This team, that on paper has no business being in some of these games.  And their fight has been admirable game in and game out.  We just don't have the horses in year 1.  I'm frustrated that we can't close games but we are in these games.  I could give a rat's ass about wins and losses at this point because I've been encouraged with the progression I've seen across the board.  Wojo hasn't coached perfectly but who does?  He will get better just like we will get better.

So I apologize for the "rant" but this board just becomes so damn frustrating with the same garbage spewed each day.

Todd Mayo never belonged here and never should have been allowed to come here.  I am not alone in that opinion which is shared by some former athletic department personnell.  The blind eyes turned by that one still amazes me....too many Buzz sychophants on that decision. 

As for the rest of the commentary....I agree with much of it.  No idea if you are truly friends with a manager or not, but most of what you are saying is grounded in common sense. 

[jesmu84]

So...was it just acknowledged that Texas Western is a family member of JJJ?  And that he is posting negative stuff about JJJ's head coach in a public forum?

LOL....how pathetic.

Head coach and teammates. Hope that doesn't get back to the team. I can't imagine it would go over very well

[wadesworld]

I talked to my manager buddy yesterday after the game (hadn't seen him all semester really) and we talked about all the close losses, how the team is handling it, so on and so forth.  At one point I mentioned that it was encouraging to see JJJ play within himself and have a much better game yesterday relative to what the past month had been like.  I asked him what his thoughts were on JJJ maybe wanting to leave after the season and he laughed in my face.  Said from what he has seen (need I remind everyone these guys interact on a DAILY basis), Jajuan is putting in the effort and trying to becoming a better contributor to this team/program.  Some times that means changing the way you go about the game (Does anyone think Buzz and Wojo are similar in the way they approach players and playing style???).  But that takes time and can be frustrating.  And wouldn't you know it, he logged 17 minutes yesterday and played pretty well.

I only bring this up because it bothers me when people on this board present their points as 100% stone-cold truth.  That Wojo is playing "mind games" with guys, that the team is "giving up" on Wojo and not fighting because their "motivation is sapped" (Texas Western, that may have taken the cake as dumbest unnatural carnal knowledgeing comment I've read on this board is a loooooonnnnnng time, and Ners posts here).  I don't post on this board with certainty unless I know what I'm saying has been backed by someone close to the team.  So quit instigating, stirring the pot, spreading baseless rumors, because it makes this board toxic and I love coming here for MUBB news.

At the end of the day, any rational poster knew what this year was going to be like.  We had a first-year coach, 3 first-year players who have been called upon heavily to contribute, 3 upperclassmen who have no business being major parts of a rotation, JJJ (already mentioned), and a one-year rental in Carlino.  Little size and comical depth.  Inexperienced talent and experienced frustration.  What did you honestly expect from Wojo in year 1?  Todd Mayo did not belong here.  Deonte and Dawson felt this wasn't their place for different reasons.  He's building a CULTURE and starting with a fresh slate.  Personally, my expectations have been more than surpassed, especially since the Big East has been so solid this year.  Take away the first 6 minutes of Seton Hall second half and this team has been in EVERY SINGLE GAME.  Every one.  This team, that on paper has no business being in some of these games.  And their fight has been admirable game in and game out.  We just don't have the horses in year 1.  I'm frustrated that we can't close games but we are in these games.  I could give a rat's ass about wins and losses at this point because I've been encouraged with the progression I've seen across the board.  Wojo hasn't coached perfectly but who does?  He will get better just like we will get better.

So I apologize for the "rant" but this board just becomes so damn frustrating with the same garbage spewed each day.

Good post.  The bolded part is certainly true.  What is lacking from a select few posters even more than a simple knowledge of the game of basketball is simple common sense.  I could go to Sydney, a place where they really don't follow basketball, and describe the situation (not 1, but 2 coaching staffs - professionals, people paid literally millions of dollars to do this job - decided that Derrick is the best option at the point guard, and some people sitting on a message board getting paid $0 to make such decisions insist they know more about the game and the coaches are playing the wrong guys), and 100% of the people would get it right, without a single clue about the game of basketball.

There have been a number of posters that recently were away from Scoop for a period of time for one reason or another that allowed this board to be very enjoyable.  You could come on here and have an intelligent discussion about a number of Marquette basketball topics.  Now every one of those posters is around and every single thread turns into the same exact topic, them knowing more than 2 separate coaching staffs, whose salaries average (guestimate here) over $1 million per coach on staff to make these types of decisions, some siting their high school basketball playing experience (as if they're the only posters to ever play the game at the high school level or beyond, and as if playing at that level is incredibly difficult and somehow makes them more qualified than a high school All American Duke point guard, an NCAA All American Florida point guard, an NCAA All American Marquette/NBA point guard, 2 other former Duke players, and another former D1 head coach), and telling us all who should be playing.

It's absolutely hilarious that these people site JJJ's high school rankings as the reason he needs to play more.  Right there is 100% confirming that they have no idea how to evaluate actual talent and just rely on some website that clearly got it wrong to tell them what players are good (mind you, those rankings are from what he was doing against high school talent 2 1/2 summers ago).  Those same people then claim that Steve Taylor Jr. is getting the correct amount of minutes despite being ranked in the same ballpark by the same recruiting services, so how the argument can be made for 1 player but not for the other is beyond me (like much of their "intelligence").

These same posters claim that a division 1 basketball coach was intentionally playing the players he knew would make the team lose to stick it to the athletic department.  Even if Bert wanted out of Marquette and knew it heading into last season, intentionally losing basketball games is not the way for a division 1 basketball coach to find his next destination.  Again, it's just a simple lack of basic common sense, you don't even need an understanding of the game of basketball to do that.  It would be sweet if that's how easy it were to make what you consider the next step up in your profession, because then all I'd have to do to become the CFO of my company is make sure all the numbers I am coming up with at work are the wrong numbers.  See how silly that is?  Any reasonable person would, but not these select few posters.

Same song and dance with intentionally messing with a players head.  That's a real solid way to make sure you get the recruits you need to win into your program.  Just make sure you mess with the 18-22 year old heads of the players already in the program, they will make sure to give glowing reviews to all the recruits you bring in for visits who they tweet at, text, etc. constantly.  Again, just simple common sense, no need for basketball knowledge.

Then they also suggest that a power forward should be taking minutes from our point guard.  Again, no knowledge needed, this simply is a lack of common sense.  Our point guard is taking minutes from our power forward.  Hmm.  So, when Charles Barkley went to the bench, Kevin Johnson was the one taking minutes from him, despite them both being on the court at the same time (since one was a point guard and the other a power forward)?  Man, revolutionary stuff.

Claiming we have 2 point guards that we should be playing instead of Derrick is funny too.  This one, however, does take a little bit of knowledge of the game, so this I can understand why it would be hard for those few posters to grasp.  They're asking for a redshirt freshman who has an assist to turnover ratio of 1.3 to 1 and a senior who has a 1.5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio to run the offense for this team and take away the most important things they bring to the table.  Duane and Matt are at their best when they are coming off of screens and moving off the ball.  I think we've all seen over the course of our number of tight games what happens to our offense when Carlino is the one bringing the ball up.  How many late game possessions have we had with a chance to hit a big basket, or overtime possessions where Carlino is handling the ball, and he ends up taking a contested 3 pointer or driving into 4 defenders in the paint and trying to finish through them?  I can recall 1 time where it worked out, and that was the end of the Georgetown game.  Other than that it has always resulted in horrible possessions.  Those 2 are by far and away much better playing off the ball, but let's take those strengths away from them and sit the guy with a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio so that we can have our point guard have an A:T ratio of half of that.  That's smart.  Reasonable.  You want your point guard to initiate the offense, handle the basketball, make solid decisions, and get others involved.  So let's sit the guy who does that, and also take away the biggest strength from 1 of our 2 best players (depending on which 1 you choose to run the point between Duane and Carlino).  Solid thought process there.

These posters also claim to have a better understanding of the type of coaching that our players respond to despite never having spent more than maybe 5 minutes total in their lives with these players, while our coaches spend multiple hours a day with the players.  Again, this comes back to basic common sense, not even an understanding of the game of basketball.  "Hey guys, the longest conversation I've ever had with this person is, 'Hi, I'm a really big fan of you!  Good luck tonight!'  Meanwhile, those guys that are on the bench with them spend every day with them.  But hey, I know what these kids need more than those guys on the bench do, and they're doing it all wrong!'"  Hilarious.

This place is becoming unbearable.  4 or 5 posters and their lack of common sense and and understanding of the game completely dominate Scoop.  It was a breath of fresh air when they weren't around for a time being.

[NersEllenson]

Ners, here is your exact quote so it will be harder for you to squirm your way out of what you actually said.

"Furthermore - some want to throw around O-Rating as a holy grail of a stat around here (which I'm not a huge fan of for a number of reasons), yet if you like - would you care to explain how Wojo's coaching/influence have resulted in JJJ's O-Rating dropping from 108.9 as a freshman to 88.2 as a sophomore??  Seems something isn't clicking."

What were your implications really Ners?

And since you brought up JJJ's ORtg in the first place as an example of Wojo's 'coaching/influence' being detrimental towards JJJ, how can you honestly suggest JJJ (89.6) deserves some of Derrick's (106.6) minutes?  It's pretty glaringly obvious based on almost all predictive measures who the better player is at this point.

The original post OnePost made - he was discussing the managers take on JJJ/Wojo's coaching.  Also, I believe that you do coach different players differently - a one size fits all approach does NOT work - and I believe that at present is Wojo's way.  

As for the JJJ/Derrick O-Rating debate - I'm not a huge fan of O-rating as an indicator - as it places WAY too much weight on turnovers.  It essentially rewards guys who play a very conservative brand of basketball.  It doesn't take into account a player's Usage Rating (which I feel is a MUCH better metric for assessing a player's value to a team.)  Furthermore when your O-rating is compiled over 15 minutes per game, and you get yanked at the first sign of trouble - a turnover/missed shot - and get benched, it kills your O-Rating.  I refuse to place statistical validity toward a player getting 15 minutes per game and their O-rating versus a guy who gets 30 minutes + every night for 2 years straight.

To further support why I don't like O-Rating as a metric:  Who would you rather have on the floor:  Jake Thomas or Duane Wilson?  They play roughly the same amount of minutes for their teams - ~70%.  Who has the better O-Rating??  Jake Thomas at 108.3 to 102.5 for Duane.

The deficit Derrick creates due to playing so incredibly passive, hurts the team as a whole (that is hard to measure other than realizing his two MU teams have been our worst team rated O-Efficiency in the last 13 years of Pomeroy rankings.   Once again you have a guy playing 75+% of ALL minutes and he gets classified by Pomeroy as a limited role.

[NersEllenson]

Good post.  The bolded part is certainly true.  What is lacking from a select few posters even more than a simple knowledge of the game of basketball is simple common sense.  I could go to Sydney, a place where they really don't follow basketball, and describe the situation (not 1, but 2 coaching staffs - professionals, people paid literally millions of dollars to do this job - decided that Derrick is the best option at the point guard, and some people sitting on a message board getting paid $0 to make such decisions insist they know more about the game and the coaches are playing the wrong guys), and 100% of the people would get it right, without a single clue about the game of basketball.

There have been a number of posters that recently were away from Scoop for a period of time for one reason or another that allowed this board to be very enjoyable.  You could come on here and have an intelligent discussion about a number of Marquette basketball topics.  Now every one of those posters is around and every single thread turns into the same exact topic, them knowing more than 2 separate coaching staffs, whose salaries average (guestimate here) over $1 million per coach on staff to make these types of decisions, some siting their high school basketball playing experience (as if they're the only posters to ever play the game at the high school level or beyond, and as if playing at that level is incredibly difficult and somehow makes them more qualified than a high school All American Duke point guard, an NCAA All American Florida point guard, an NCAA All American Marquette/NBA point guard, 2 other former Duke players, and another former D1 head coach), and telling us all who should be playing.

It's absolutely hilarious that these people site JJJ's high school rankings as the reason he needs to play more.  Right there is 100% confirming that they have no idea how to evaluate actual talent and just rely on some website that clearly got it wrong to tell them what players are good (mind you, those rankings are from what he was doing against high school talent 2 1/2 summers ago).  Those same people then claim that Steve Taylor Jr. is getting the correct amount of minutes despite being ranked in the same ballpark by the same recruiting services, so how the argument can be made for 1 player but not for the other is beyond me (like much of their "intelligence").

These same posters claim that a division 1 basketball coach was intentionally playing the players he knew would make the team lose to stick it to the athletic department.  Even if Bert wanted out of Marquette and knew it heading into last season, intentionally losing basketball games is not the way for a division 1 basketball coach to find his next destination.  Again, it's just a simple lack of basic common sense, you don't even need an understanding of the game of basketball to do that.  It would be sweet if that's how easy it were to make what you consider the next step up in your profession, because then all I'd have to do to become the CFO of my company is make sure all the numbers I am coming up with at work are the wrong numbers.  See how silly that is?  Any reasonable person would, but not these select few posters.

Same song and dance with intentionally messing with a players head.  That's a real solid way to make sure you get the recruits you need to win into your program.  Just make sure you mess with the 18-22 year old heads of the players already in the program, they will make sure to give glowing reviews to all the recruits you bring in for visits who they tweet at, text, etc. constantly.  Again, just simple common sense, no need for basketball knowledge.

Then they also suggest that a power forward should be taking minutes from our point guard.  Again, no knowledge needed, this simply is a lack of common sense.  Our point guard is taking minutes from our power forward.  Hmm.  So, when Charles Barkley went to the bench, Kevin Johnson was the one taking minutes from him, despite them both being on the same court and one being a point guard and the other a power forward?  Man, revolutionary stuff.

Claiming we have 2 point guards that we should be playing instead of Derrick is funny too.  This one, however, does take a little bit of knowledge of the game, so this I can understand why it would be hard for those few posters to grasp.  They're asking for a redshirt freshman who has an assist to turnover ratio of 1.3 to 1 and a senior who has a 1.5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio to run the offense for this team and take away the most important things they bring to the table.  Duane and Matt are at their best when they are coming off of screens and moving off the ball.  I think we've all seen over the course of our number of tight games what happens to our offense when Carlino is the one bringing the ball up.  How many late game possessions have we had with a chance to hit a big basket, or overtime possessions where Carlino is handling the ball, and he ends up taking a contested 3 pointer or driving into 4 defenders in the paint and trying to finish through them?  I can recall 1 time where it worked out, and that was the end of the Georgetown game.  Other than that it has always resulted in horrible possessions.  Those 2 are by far and away much better playing off the ball, but let's take those strengths away from them and sit the guy with a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio so that we can have our point guard have an A:T ratio of half of that.  That's smart.  Reasonable.  You want your point guard to initiate the offense, handle the basketball, make solid decisions, and get others involved.  So let's sit the guy who does that, and also take away the biggest strength from 1 of our 2 best players (depending on which 1 you choose to run the point between Duane and Carlino).  Solid thought process there.

These posters also claim to have a better understanding of the type of coaching that our players respond to despite never having spent more than maybe 5 minutes total in their lives with these players, while our coaches spend multiple hours a day with the players.  Again, this comes back to basic common sense, not even an understanding of the game of basketball.  "Hey guys, the longest conversation I've ever had with this person is, 'Hi, I'm a really big fan of you!  Good luck tonight!'  Meanwhile, those guys that are on the bench with them spend every day with them.  But hey, I know what these kids need more than those guys on the bench do, and they're doing it all wrong!'"  Hilarious.

This place is becoming unbearable.  4 or 5 posters and their lack of common sense and and understanding of the game completely dominate Scoop.  It was a breath of fresh air when they weren't around for a time being.

Wow - LOL.  Board would be much more enjoyable if guys who have volleyball medals would stick to what they know. 

I'll indulge you for a minute:  Did Holmgren have it right on Majikowski over Farve?  Belicheck right on Bledsoe over Brady?

LOL.  Yes, two Hall of Fame coaches that have won Super Bowl titles, chose a veteran over a more talented understudy.  Just because you get paid millions of dollars to coach a sport, does not mean you make the right decisions 100% of the time.

Did you second guess McCarthy against Seattle?  Well if you did - Shut up - You aren't paid millions to coach football.  Coaches never ever get it wrong.  Arguments never take place among highly paid talent scouts in teams front offices as to player's talent/potential.

End of the day.  What is the ultimate assessment of a coaches decisions?  Win/loss record.

[mu03eng]

Good post.  The bolded part is certainly true.  What is lacking from a select few posters even more than a simple knowledge of the game of basketball is simple common sense.  I could go to Sydney, a place where they really don't follow basketball, and describe the situation (not 1, but 2 coaching staffs - professionals, people paid literally millions of dollars to do this job - decided that Derrick is the best option at the point guard, and some people sitting on a message board getting paid $0 to make such decisions insist they know more about the game and the coaches are playing the wrong guys), and 100% of the people would get it right, without a single clue about the game of basketball.

There have been a number of posters that recently were away from Scoop for a period of time for one reason or another that allowed this board to be very enjoyable.  You could come on here and have an intelligent discussion about a number of Marquette basketball topics.  Now every one of those posters is around and every single thread turns into the same exact topic, them knowing more than 2 separate coaching staffs, whose salaries average (guestimate here) over $1 million per coach on staff to make these types of decisions, some siting their high school basketball playing experience (as if they're the only posters to ever play the game at the high school level or beyond, and as if playing at that level is incredibly difficult and somehow makes them more qualified than a high school All American Duke point guard, an NCAA All American Florida point guard, an NCAA All American Marquette/NBA point guard, 2 other former Duke players, and another former D1 head coach), and telling us all who should be playing.

It's absolutely hilarious that these people site JJJ's high school rankings as the reason he needs to play more.  Right there is 100% confirming that they have no idea how to evaluate actual talent and just rely on some website that clearly got it wrong to tell them what players are good (mind you, those rankings are from what he was doing against high school talent 2 1/2 summers ago).  Those same people then claim that Steve Taylor Jr. is getting the correct amount of minutes despite being ranked in the same ballpark by the same recruiting services, so how the argument can be made for 1 player but not for the other is beyond me (like much of their "intelligence").

These same posters claim that a division 1 basketball coach was intentionally playing the players he knew would make the team lose to stick it to the athletic department.  Even if Bert wanted out of Marquette and knew it heading into last season, intentionally losing basketball games is not the way for a division 1 basketball coach to find his next destination.  Again, it's just a simple lack of basic common sense, you don't even need an understanding of the game of basketball to do that.  It would be sweet if that's how easy it were to make what you consider the next step up in your profession, because then all I'd have to do to become the CFO of my company is make sure all the numbers I am coming up with at work are the wrong numbers.  See how silly that is?  Any reasonable person would, but not these select few posters.

Same song and dance with intentionally messing with a players head.  That's a real solid way to make sure you get the recruits you need to win into your program.  Just make sure you mess with the 18-22 year old heads of the players already in the program, they will make sure to give glowing reviews to all the recruits you bring in for visits who they tweet at, text, etc. constantly.  Again, just simple common sense, no need for basketball knowledge.

Then they also suggest that a power forward should be taking minutes from our point guard.  Again, no knowledge needed, this simply is a lack of common sense.  Our point guard is taking minutes from our power forward.  Hmm.  So, when Charles Barkley went to the bench, Kevin Johnson was the one taking minutes from him, despite them both being on the court at the same time (since one was a point guard and the other a power forward)?  Man, revolutionary stuff.

Claiming we have 2 point guards that we should be playing instead of Derrick is funny too.  This one, however, does take a little bit of knowledge of the game, so this I can understand why it would be hard for those few posters to grasp.  They're asking for a redshirt freshman who has an assist to turnover ratio of 1.3 to 1 and a senior who has a 1.5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio to run the offense for this team and take away the most important things they bring to the table.  Duane and Matt are at their best when they are coming off of screens and moving off the ball.  I think we've all seen over the course of our number of tight games what happens to our offense when Carlino is the one bringing the ball up.  How many late game possessions have we had with a chance to hit a big basket, or overtime possessions where Carlino is handling the ball, and he ends up taking a contested 3 pointer or driving into 4 defenders in the paint and trying to finish through them?  I can recall 1 time where it worked out, and that was the end of the Georgetown game.  Other than that it has always resulted in horrible possessions.  Those 2 are by far and away much better playing off the ball, but let's take those strengths away from them and sit the guy with a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio so that we can have our point guard have an A:T ratio of half of that.  That's smart.  Reasonable.  You want your point guard to initiate the offense, handle the basketball, make solid decisions, and get others involved.  So let's sit the guy who does that, and also take away the biggest strength from 1 of our 2 best players (depending on which 1 you choose to run the point between Duane and Carlino).  Solid thought process there.

These posters also claim to have a better understanding of the type of coaching that our players respond to despite never having spent more than maybe 5 minutes total in their lives with these players, while our coaches spend multiple hours a day with the players.  Again, this comes back to basic common sense, not even an understanding of the game of basketball.  "Hey guys, the longest conversation I've ever had with this person is, 'Hi, I'm a really big fan of you!  Good luck tonight!'  Meanwhile, those guys that are on the bench with them spend every day with them.  But hey, I know what these kids need more than those guys on the bench do, and they're doing it all wrong!'"  Hilarious.

This place is becoming unbearable.  4 or 5 posters and their lack of common sense and and understanding of the game completely dominate Scoop.  It was a breath of fresh air when they weren't around for a time being.

Wades, I'm telling you, just put Ners and Willie on ignore.  First people I've ever put on ignore and its amazingly liberating.  Obviously some of their vitriol spills over but you can at least navigate it and have rational discussions about the team....even Derrick.

Bottom line for me, while the losses are frustrating there has been so much to appreciate about Wojo and this team and a ton of growth from everyone.  I prefer to focus on that and can accept that Wojo is making smart choices.  This team is shaping up to be the team looks terrible on paper from a record standpoint and will be undervalued next year.  They will be very good next year.

Lastly, I'm so bullish on this team, I will say it's a 60-40 probability that MU will be playing in the elite 8 next year.

[MU82]

Just because you get paid millions of dollars to coach a sport, does not mean you make the right decisions 100% of the time.

Agreed.

And just because you were a high school basketball player does not mean you have the answers 100% of the time.

Do you even read what you write?

[NersEllenson]

Wades, I'm telling you, just put Ners and Willie on ignore.  First people I've ever put on ignore and its amazingly liberating.  Obviously some of their vitriol spills over but you can at least navigate it and have rational discussions about the team....even Derrick.

Bottom line for me, while the losses are frustrating there has been so much to appreciate about Wojo and this team and a ton of growth from everyone.  I prefer to focus on that and can accept that Wojo is making smart choices.  This team is shaping up to be the team looks terrible on paper from a record standpoint and will be undervalued next year.  They will be very good next year.

Lastly, I'm so bullish on this team, I will say it's a 60-40 probability that MU will be playing in the elite 8 next year.

You must think Henry Ellenson is going to be the second coming of Shaquille O'Neal?  I agree we should be better simply by default of finally being forced to play someone else at PG.  But to think we have a 60-40 shot at the Elite 8 - and some call me delusional?!  You think this lineup/team is even NCAA worthy?

Duane/Cheatham/Nic?
Cohen/JJJ/Cheatham?
Wally/Steve Taylor
Henry/Steve Taylor
Luke/Heldt

Losing Carlino will hurt a lot.  We will have NO proven 2nd guard scoring option next season.  Cheatham could be a player, but he's going to need a TON of strength to help next season - think he'll probably be very similar to what Sandy has been this year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So the OPINIONS of a team manager are now facts that have more merit than do the observations of those who have family ties to current and former players on the team?  Uh Okay.   

I have no idea if onepostelleson is truly friends with a manager. Though I will say his post made a lot of sense to me and makes a lot more sense than a lot of the conspiracy theories I've heard on here. But assuming he is telling the truth about that, yes. I would take the word of a student manager over a relative of a player seven ways to Sunday.

I work with parents/relatives of college students every day. On average, they are overbearing and misguided. At their worst, they are damn near psychotic in their defense of their children (think Tim Maymon). The culture of the parent to student to university employee relationship has changed drastically from even the time when you were in school. Parents used to put unshakeable trust in teachers, coaches, and support staff. If a kid was performing poorly, be it on the court, off the court, or in the classroom, the parents would tell the kid to stop screwing up and work harder. Now, parents believe their children deserve special treatment and that their little angel is better than all of the rest. When their angel isn't getting the grade or playing time the parents feel they deserve, they lash out at the coaches and teachers. It couldn't possibly be because their child didn't earn the grade or the playing time. The coach must be mistreating them or playing favorites with the other players. The comic below illustrates the point nicely:



Sometimes, the parents do this despite the protests of their child. The stories you heard about Jerrone Maymon calling teammates in tears because he didn't want to transfer but his dad was forcing it? I've heard them from more than one person. I serve on conduct panels at TAMU have had parents barge into my office to yell at me about somehow I mistreated their child during the conduct process. As soon as they leave, the student comes back into my office to apologize for their parent.

Of course, it's not always the parents' fault. Not entirely. College students lie. Parents are not in the classroom, they are not in the locker room, they are not in practice. When their child says that a teacher is biased against them, or a coach is playing favorites with the other players, they have no other information to base it on. Most parents want to believe their students. They want to believe that their students is the best and if they are not doing well, it must be because someone is working against them. When I worked with tutoring in grad school, I would have parents screaming at me on the phone because I caused their student's scholarship to be revoked because I didn't approve their son or daughter's time in tutoring. Unfortunately, because of privacy laws such as FERPA, I couldn't tell them that their child never showed up to tutoring despite being put on academic probation and being given multiple warnings that if they didn't go to tutoring, they would lose their scholarship.

I have no idea what family connections people have here. I have no idea what players may or may not be telling these family members. I am also aware that many people on here are parents, and I am not, so I have a hard time understanding their point of view. All I'm saying is that in my experience, parents/relatives often act without all of the necessary information and have the tendency to be blinded by the love and support they have for their child in order to give an objective opinion about situations like this. I would take any information you get from family members with a grain of salt.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

However, I wouldn't make the assumption that Western is a family member of JJJ just because he is supportive of JJJ.

I've said this before, and I've said this again, I really hope Texas Western is giving you permission to say these things. He has never claimed to be a relative of anyone on the team. But you have had no problem outing him. That is kind of a dick move unless TW has given you his blessing.

Based on this, it seems that you are implying Texas Western is another Dawson family member who found his way on to the board. It makes sense. He didn't join until after Dawson committed. He has always been pro-Dawson. Also, UTEP, formerly known as Texas Western, is one of the closest D1 programs to Dawson's hometown of Clovis, NM. He also didn't become outspoken about Wojo's treatment of the players and playing time until after Dawson committed. As Sultan pointed out, it would be highly inappropriate for a relative of a player to be trashing the head coach. I've never met John, but those I knew who had met him described him as a very respectful and hard working man. I would assume his family members were the same, so this person refrained until after John left for Liberty.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You must think Henry Ellenson is going to be the second coming of Shaquille O'Neal?  I agree we should be better simply by default of finally being forced to play someone else at PG.  But to think we have a 60-40 shot at the Elite 8 - and some call me delusional?!  You think this lineup/team is even NCAA worthy?

Duane/Cheatham/Nic?
Cohen/JJJ/Cheatham?
Wally/Steve Taylor
Henry/Steve Taylor
Luke/Heldt

Losing Carlino will hurt a lot.  We will have NO proven 2nd guard scoring option next season.  Cheatham could be a player, but he's going to need a TON of strength to help next season - think he'll probably be very similar to what Sandy has been this year.

This is one place where we agree. I would careful to put too many expectations on next year's team. I think low NCAA bid is the most reasonable expectation. Elite Eight is way too high of an expectation. However, if we find a stud PG somewhere in the grad transfer or JUCO ranks, I may change my tune.

[GGGG]

I've said this before, and I've said this again, I really hope Texas Western is giving you permission to say these things. He has never claimed to be a relative of anyone on the team. But you have had no problem outing him. That is kind of a dick move unless TW has given you his blessing.

Based on this, it seems that you are implying Texas Western is another Dawson family member who found his way on to the board. It makes sense. He didn't join until after Dawson committed. He has always been pro-Dawson. Also, UTEP, formerly known as Texas Western, is one of the closest D1 programs to Dawson's hometown of Clovis, NM. He also didn't become outspoken about Wojo's treatment of the players and playing time until after Dawson committed. As Sultan pointed out, it would be highly inappropriate for a relative of a player to be trashing the head coach. I've never met John, but those I knew who had met him described him as a very respectful and hard working man. I would assume his family members were the same, so this person refrained until after John left for Liberty.

If TW is connected to John Dawson, I suggest he simply leave.  He no longer has a connection to the program.  There is absolutely no reason for him to be here trashing the coach.  If he is connected to another player currently on the roster, he should simply STFU.  (I do find it amusing that he brought up Mike Deane as a "good coach."  My guess is that he looked it up on Wikipedia.)

And having a regular poster on this board enabling that behavior is mind-numbing at best, and borderline unethical at worst.

[mu03eng]

This is one place where we agree. I would careful to put too many expectations on next year's team. I think low NCAA bid is the most reasonable expectation. Elite Eight is way too high of an expectation. However, if we find a stud PG somewhere in the grad transfer or JUCO ranks, I may change my tune.

It's not an expectation on my part, it's a prediction....there is a difference.  I also predict we will have a grad transfer PG and a Juco big man added to the roster in the off season.

Based on all of that, I would expect a top 8 seeding in the tournament and expect to play on the first Saturday/Sunday.  But I predict we get an elite 8....just a feeling I have with everything going on, and how under the radar the team will be next year given what this year's record will be.

[MU1980]

So...was it just acknowledged that Texas Western is a family member of JJJ?  And that he is posting negative stuff about JJJ's head coach in a public forum?

LOL....how pathetic.

Personally, I find Texas Western's posts to be pathetic, whether or not he is related to a player on the team or has any connection to anyone.  If he really does have some type of connection, then that makes his posts even more outrageous.  I don't have a problem with him having a different opinion than myself or many others, but it is his constant attacks on Wojo without justification that bother me the most.  Yes, go ahead and argue back and forth on situations such as whether Wojo managed the end of the Butler game correctly.  That is message board worthy and makes sense why people might have different opinions on that.  Don't however, continuously call out Wojo as someone who has treated his players poorly, driven people off the team, thrown people under the bus, etc.  This is just all wild speculation from one or two posters and there is no evidence of any of this happening and is even refuted by people who really do have some inside knowledge.  Let it go TW, let it go.  Wojo will continue to distribute playing time based on the facts of how people are doing in practice and the games.  He has shown that very consistently since the beginning of the season and why you have such a problem with it is beyond me, except for the fact that you must have a connection to one of the players currently not living up to expectations that is therefore seeing reduced playing time.  They will either earn it like Cohen did, or choose to leave like Burton and Dawson did.  

[wadesworld]

Personally, I find Texas Western's posts to be pathetic, whether or not he is related to a player on the team or has any connection to anyone.  If he really does have some type of connection, then that makes his posts even more outrageous.  I don't have a problem with him having a different opinion than myself or many others, but it is his constant attacks on Wojo without justification that bother me the most.  Yes, go ahead and argue back and forth on situations such as whether Wojo managed the end of the Butler game correctly.  That is message board worthy and makes sense why people might have different opinions on that.  Don't however, continuously call out Wojo as someone who has treated his players poorly, driven people off the team, thrown people under the bus, etc.  This is just all wild speculation from one or two posters and there is no evidence of any of this happening and is even refuted by people who really do have some inside knowledge.  Let it go TW, let it go.  Wojo will continue to distribute playing time based on the facts of how people are doing in practice and the games.  He has shown that very consistently since the beginning of the season and why you have such a problem with it is beyond me, except for the fact that you must have a connection to one of the players currently not living up to expectations that is therefore seeing reduced playing time.  They will either earn it like Cohen did, or choose to leave like Burton and Dawson did.  

Spot on.  Plus his attacks on current players and recruits.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Good post.  The bolded part is certainly true.  What is lacking from a select few posters even more than a simple knowledge of the game of basketball is simple common sense...
This place is becoming unbearable.  4 or 5 posters and their lack of common sense and and understanding of the game completely dominate Scoop.  It was a breath of fresh air when they weren't around for a time being.

It's a good summary wades, and you've left out half of the truly friggin insane, contradicting arguments the one poster makes.  The mods have made it clear they are going to be extraordinarily lenient before handing out bans, so it is up to everyone else to stop being baited into arguing.  We all think, "Hey, I have a fact-based, statistical-based inarguable point that will finally show him the light."  Uh-uh, NOTHING anyone says here can derail the insane train.