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Author Topic: Lost Cause  (Read 19498 times)

dgies9156

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Lost Cause
« on: January 29, 2015, 08:37:47 AM »
Gosh I hate losing. I really do!

But I think this season is a lost cause. The light I saw at the end of the tunnel against Georgetown either disappeared or was freight train against Seton Hall. I missed the game but it appears we did little right. I had a lot of enthusiasm for us after Georgetown but then I see the SH game description and realize that we're regressing. We can't win on the road to save our lives (where's USF when we need them?). The usual JJJ problems recurred and somehow we let SH shoot the lights out from three-land.

My worst fear at this point is that Wojo needs to "blow it all up." We have three seniors -- Carlino, Derrick and Juan. We've also lost Burton to a change of scenery and its debatable whether Jujuan be back. The verdict is out on Steve Taylor Jr., though I do hope he can find a way to live up to the talent he had coming in. Luke, Duane and Sandy are our future, but it may take a couple of years to get back to the winning ways that most of us want to be at.

We seem to need too much, too fast. If Wojo can take what's coming back, mesh it with what's coming in and get productivity next year, my lord he'd be the greatest coach we ever had (sorry Al). I hope he does this and is, but I just don't see cause for optimism right now.

MUfan12

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 08:40:19 AM »
It was one game. They've been in every game this season. The close losses had to be discouraging, and they let themselves get defeated when Hall hit everything they put up to start the half.

If they get trucked by Butler, then you can talk about regressing and blowing it up.

willie warrior

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 08:42:48 AM »
Gosh I hate losing. I really do!

But I think this season is a lost cause. The light I saw at the end of the tunnel against Georgetown either disappeared or was freight train against Seton Hall. I missed the game but it appears we did little right. I had a lot of enthusiasm for us after Georgetown but then I see the SH game description and realize that we're regressing. We can't win on the road to save our lives (where's USF when we need them?). The usual JJJ problems recurred and somehow we let SH shoot the lights out from three-land.

My worst fear at this point is that Wojo needs to "blow it all up." We have three seniors -- Carlino, Derrick and Juan. We've also lost Burton to a change of scenery and its debatable whether Jujuan be back. The verdict is out on Steve Taylor Jr., though I do hope he can find a way to live up to the talent he had coming in. Luke, Duane and Sandy are our future, but it may take a couple of years to get back to the winning ways that most of us want to be at.

We seem to need too much, too fast. If Wojo can take what's coming back, mesh it with what's coming in and get productivity next year, my lord he'd be the greatest coach we ever had (sorry Al). I hope he does this and is, but I just don't see cause for optimism right now.
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NavinRJohnson

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 08:44:32 AM »
You think this season is a lost cause? This season was a lost cause before it began. Really not sure what the heck "blow it all up" means either. It was already blown up 10 months ago with the coaching change.

rocky_warrior

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 08:45:04 AM »
My mantra for the season has been...Low expectations, high hopes.

This MU team has lived up to my expectations, and I still have hope they'll start playing well 40 minutes per game, instead of the 30 min we've all gotten used to.

brewcity77

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 08:52:17 AM »
I'm curious what's meant by "blow it up". If you mean give more minutes to Luke, Duane, and Sandy, how much more do you want to give them? Look at their minutes the last 4 games:

Luke: 27.8 mpg
Duane: 28.8 mpg
Sandy: 22.8 mpg

Those guys are all playing a pretty fair amount of minutes, and honestly getting out for some stretches probably does them some good both in terms of rest and allowing the staff to use the breaks as teaching moments.

People can spin it any way they want, but Buzz didn't leave much behind. The upperclassmen are tenaciously hard workers, but only have the ability to be at best average starters at this level. 75% of the underclassmen show some good potential, but they're still just freshmen and sophomores. And the rest of our recruiting class ended up leaving before Wojo got a chance.

This was a rebuild from the start. While the guys stuck through the summer, there were always going to be transfers with a new coach and there were always going to be guys that didn't fit into the new system. I think next year will show some improvement and in 2 years I think we'll be back competing for Big East titles. Either way, my guess is less than 25% of our 2015-16 roster will be made up of Buzz recruits. I'd say that's pretty blown up.
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dgies9156

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 09:01:07 AM »
This was a rebuild from the start. While the guys stuck through the summer, there were always going to be transfers with a new coach and there were always going to be guys that didn't fit into the new system. I think next year will show some improvement and in 2 years I think we'll be back competing for Big East titles. Either way, my guess is less than 25% of our 2015-16 roster will be made up of Buzz recruits. I'd say that's pretty blown up.

My left brain says you are right. My right brain says, yeah... but! To some degree I'm more frustrated than anything. I know the Hillbilly left us with nothing. I think part of the reason he left was he knew this was coming -- and he knew we are rabid and not particularly tolerant of losing (or losers). Especially when our coach makes what the Hillbilly made.

I think it will take two, maybe three years, for us to be back to our rightful place in college basketball. Maybe some JC transfers can help, but I think Wojo needs two more Top 10 or Top 20 recruiting classes to refill the cupboards. In the meantime, YIKES!

jsglow

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 09:25:43 AM »
I think it will be interesting to see what fan expectations are next year.  This year Wojo gets a complete pass for obvious reasons.  I wonder what the landscape will look like exactly 12 months from now, both in terms of team performance and on prospects for the future?  I suppose the first couple of glimpses will be player acquisition both later this spring and then with the 2016 class that'll sign in November.  Both will happen before we see any meaningful improvement on the court.

All that said, I'm certainly a Wojo fan at this point.  We just don't have the horses these days.  I can't really recall in recent years the barn being so empty.

NavinRJohnson

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 09:31:09 AM »
I think it will take two, maybe three years, for us to be back to our rightful place in college basketball. Maybe some JC transfers can help, but I think Wojo needs two more Top 10 or Top 20 recruiting classes to refill the cupboards.

You say that like its something new. Take a look around...he needs one 'every' year, not just the next couple. If you want to consistently retain a spot in the top 20 every year, guess what. You have to recruit in the Top 20 every year.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 09:39:07 AM »
In my view, no season is a "lost cause" per se.  I'm sure it didn't meet some people's expectations, but is our staff learning and growing?  Are some players getting better, earning experience?  I would categorize it as a lost cause if there was regression across the board, but with such a young staff and many key young players, that isn't the case IMO.

Biggest danger I see is next year expectations will be higher than they should be.  Similar to Fischer expectations this year.  We will be very young next year.  It will be an up or down year, but with a lot of talent.  Probably good enough for a NCAA bid, but you never know.


StillAWarrior

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 09:47:59 AM »
Biggest danger I see is next year expectations will be higher than they should be.  Similar to Fischer expectations this year.  We will be very young next year.  It will be an up or down year, but with a lot of talent.  Probably good enough for a NCAA bid, but you never know.

Doing your part to help rein in those high expectations, I see.   ;)
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brewcity77

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 09:54:03 AM »
I think it will take two, maybe three years, for us to be back to our rightful place in college basketball. Maybe some JC transfers can help, but I think Wojo needs two more Top 10 or Top 20 recruiting classes to refill the cupboards. In the meantime, YIKES!

Well, I'm the eternal optimist, so here's my hope for next year:

Guards: Our coaching staff gets a nice jump out of Duane and brings in a transfer to allow us to keep running a 2-point attack. Noskowiak adds depth and shooting, while Cheatham is a surprising boost as a third ball handler and able defender.

Wings: Henry is our best player from day one. Sandy is a solid starter on both ends and we attract a transfer that gives some scoring punch. Wally and Steve give depth and rebounding, and we add another freshman that can play defense.

Bigs: Luke adds muscle and the addition of the Ellenson brothers takes some pressure off him down low. He becomes a reliable presence on both ends of the floor, while Heldt gives enough to keep Luke out of foul trouble and keep us from having to play half the game at a size deficit.

It's probably not enough to win the league, but it sure looks more competitive. As long as Sandy, Duane, Henry, and some newcomers can hit the three, we can be back to winning ways sooner rather than later.

And yes...I could do a worse case scenario, but optimism is more fun ;)
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GooooMarquette

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 09:54:59 AM »
As long as conference champions are determined in March, there's no such thing as a lost cause season until the last buzzer.  It's a long shot, but 3 wins on a neutral court in NYC and we'd have an NCAA berth.  I'm not expecting that, but worse teams have done it.  Our BE record sucks, but we've been in every conference game - home and away - except last night.  Wojo and staff need to continue to do whatever they think increases our chances of turning those close losses into wins in NYC.  And it isn't dramatic improvement they're looking for - they're looking for the extra couple of plays that would have made the difference.

The sky is not falling.

dgies9156

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 09:55:51 AM »
I think it will be interesting to see what fan expectations are next year.  This year Wojo gets a complete pass for obvious reasons.  I wonder what the landscape will look like exactly 12 months from now, both in terms of team performance and on prospects for the future?  I suppose the first couple of glimpses will be player acquisition both later this spring and then with the 2016 class that'll sign in November.  Both will happen before we see any meaningful improvement on the court.

All that said, I'm certainly a Wojo fan at this point.  We just don't have the horses these days.  I can't really recall in recent years the barn being so empty.

1) Right on regarding the Wojo situation. I like what I see in him. He's shown a lot of growth.

2) Next year's expectations depend on three things. First, how ready is our new group of recruits to compete at a Division 1 level? The hype and the promise is tremendous, but I don't believe yet we know how good these guys will be. Second, who will fill out the 2015-2016 class? We're needing more and the rumors around this boards are not insubstantial. But at issue is how many quality teammates will our returning and recruited group have from the folks still out there. By the way Diamond, there's still room!  Third, can this group gel under Wojo's leadership?

3) I hope the 2015-2016 team is a 9 seed or so in the tournament, but that's no prediction. Just a hope (and maybe a wing and a prayer at this point).

dgies9156

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 09:57:13 AM »
As long as conference champions are determined in March, there's no such thing as a lost cause season until the last buzzer.  It's a long shot, but 3 wins on a neutral court in NYC and we'd have an NCAA berth.  I'm not expecting that, but worse teams have done it.  Our BE record sucks, but we've been in every conference game - home and away - except last night.  Wojo and staff need to continue to do whatever they think increases our chances of turning those close losses into wins in NYC.  And it isn't dramatic improvement they're looking for - they're looking for the extra couple of plays that would have made the difference.

The sky is not falling.

But the weed may be burning.

No way this scenario happens with this team.

GGGG

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 10:00:51 AM »
1) Right on regarding the Wojo situation. I like what I see in him. He's shown a lot of growth.

2) Next year's expectations depend on three things. First, how ready is our new group of recruits to compete at a Division 1 level? The hype and the promise is tremendous, but I don't believe yet we know how good these guys will be. Second, who will fill out the 2015-2016 class? We're needing more and the rumors around this boards are not insubstantial. But at issue is how many quality teammates will our returning and recruited group have from the folks still out there. By the way Diamond, there's still room!  Third, can this group gel under Wojo's leadership?

3) I hope the 2015-2016 team is a 9 seed or so in the tournament, but that's no prediction. Just a hope (and maybe a wing and a prayer at this point).


1. Agree completely.

2. Really we can only expect Henry to be a solid contributor right off the bat.  What's most important is to see how guys like Duane, Sandy and Luke improve, and what kind of contributions Wally can bring.  Those guys taking leaps is what is going to make a difference.  The other freshmen are likely going to simply be role players.  We also don't know about any Jucos who can come in and make an impact.  Diamond isn't coming to MU.

3. I think that is realistic this far out.  Perhaps a 4 seed in 2016-17.

FartyEightHours

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 10:03:12 AM »
But the weed may be burning.

No way this scenario happens with this team.

Once Derrick Wilson gets hot from three, anything can happen.
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brewcity77

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2015, 10:05:49 AM »
As long as conference champions are determined in March, there's no such thing as a lost cause season until the last buzzer.  It's a long shot, but 3 wins on a neutral court in NYC and we'd have an NCAA berth.

We're not finishing top-6 this year. That means we'll need 4 wins in NYC. 3 will only get us to the title game.
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willie warrior

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 10:07:38 AM »
Once Derrick Wilson gets hot from three, anything can happen.
Yes, that is a part of his game we need. And if he can become a career 65% FT shooter by year's end, we will be in fat city.
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79Warrior

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2015, 10:08:42 AM »
In my view, no season is a "lost cause" per se.  I'm sure it didn't meet some people's expectations, but is our staff learning and growing?  Are some players getting better, earning experience?  I would categorize it as a lost cause if there was regression across the board, but with such a young staff and many key young players, that isn't the case IMO.

Biggest danger I see is next year expectations will be higher than they should be.  Similar to Fischer expectations this year.  We will be very young next year.  It will be an up or down year, but with a lot of talent.  Probably good enough for a NCAA bid, but you never know.



As it stands now, we have 5 players returning. We have one bona fide blue chipper coming in, HE. Wally and the other freshman are complete unknowns. Based just on that, I do not see an NCAA bid next season. Now, I am sure more players will be added, but based on the current situation, tough year coming up again.

zrjones13

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 10:12:00 AM »
My mantra for the season has been...Low expectations, high hopes.

This MU team has lived up to my expectations, and I still have hope they'll start playing well 40 minutes per game, instead of the 30 min we've all gotten used to.

I'm with Rocky on this.  I had no expectations going into the season and that has helped me through.  It's been rough being "in" all these games with chances to win, but with our youth and short bench it's tough.  We still have nine games plus the BET to improve, which was my goal for the year.  The thing about the BET is you never know what will happen marquette has been in every game all you have do is win 4 games.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2015, 10:33:34 AM »
Carlino is playing better than he knows how - 44% 3 point shooting considering the tough looks he gets and the prayers he has to launch at the end of shot clocks is crazy good.

Derrick is getting every ounce out of his limited ability.

Same for Juan.

Duane's performance has been up and down but he's grown a great deal.

Same for Sandy.

Luke needs strength and won't progress until he gets it.

I'll never figure Steve out, Wojo probably won't either.

JJJ is enduring a second consecutive winter of discontent. Buzz couldn't turn on the light. Neither can Wojo. Or JJJ himself. Maybe there is no there there.

Wojo is doing fine. Actually, better than fine IMO. We're just not very good. We can win games if we're lights out or if our opponents play bad, but all things being equal we'll lose more often than not in conference play because we're outmanned. Not unexpected. We lost Burton and never got Hill, Shayok and Pierce. Coaching changes these days usually leave the new guy scrambling for a couple of years. We're playing hard and 7 of our 8 guys are doing what the coaching staff is asking of them. Patience.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2015, 10:57:56 AM »
Doing your part to help rein in those high expectations, I see.   ;)

Fair point.

I really meant it as a hedge against the whackos here that will have us in the Final Four next year.  I suspect we will be fighting it out most of the year to get to the tournament.

MUMountin

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2015, 11:03:31 AM »
And, I think it is important to remember that the Big East is on an upswing this year.  Good for the conference, bad for us.   

tower912

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Re: Lost Cause
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 11:07:15 AM »
I had low expectations for this season from a W/L perspective.    I saw this year as a 'soft open' for Wojo and his coaching staff.    All I have been looking for is growth, learning, effort.    I have seen those.   
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