What if scenarios and the missing link between MU and the 'blue bloods'

[mattyv1908]

Coming off a nice win is so much more enjoyable than pondering losses, which got me thinking about the last few years and the difference between a program like Marquette and the national powerhouses year in and year out.  With our team, it always seems like we're one player from the previous class which had they been around another year would've taken the next year's squad to much more success.  With your blue bloods, there's enough incoming talent or developing players that the attrition in minimal.  Just look at Buzz's teams following his rookie season with the big 3.

Add Wes to the Lazar and the midgets team
Add Lazar to Butler's senior season with Crowder, DJO
Add Butler to Crowder, DJO, Gardner, Blue and Jamil
Add Crowder to Blue, Gardner, Cadogan, Jamil and Lockett
Add Blue to last year's team with Gardner, Jamil, Mayo and the upside of our freshman
Add Gardner to Duane, Carlino, and Fischer (I think we beat both OSU and MSU even without Luke)

My point of this post is that we were always one player away from being truly special.  Hopefully the success that Crean and Buzz established allows Wojo to get the depth of talent which enables us to cross the threshold and put us in the national conversation as truly one of the best college basketball programs a kid could play at.

[GoldenZebra]

Having Fischer back is nice, but we cant forget that ASU is not a very good team either...

[PGsHeroes32]

Not too long ago I went back and looked at all of our seasons boxscores from the last Crean year through the Buzz years and holy hell did we have some crazy teams.

I mean right off the bat we know the talent of the Buzz inherited team until the injury.

Then the midget year. Were supposed to suck, surprised in Orlando, lost to NC State, started losing every close game imaginable, hit rock bottom at DePaul, then started winning eveyr single close game. Never lost by double digits. 3 straight OT's, Jimmys winner in UConn.Heartbreaker in tourney.

Next year was a super talented team(Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Ox, Vander)...they lost 15 games but this is the one that got over the sweet 16 hump. Couldn't buy a ranked team win til beating Cuse...and then the legendary UConn road win only to lay an egg on senior night(sans jimmy) and at Seton Hall

Then our best all around team by far. Team rattled off consecutive vicotries at will to get top 10 on separate occaisions. Had the gtown debacle and Vandy reaming. But just kept consistently winning. Oxtule injuires kept the team from being lethal. Back to sweet 16 but this time lose to a talented 7 seed....ughhh

Then we got a team that can't shoot...somehow ties for first in the conference. Shoulda lost first round...goes the furthest of the bunch to the elite 8. Remarkable.

And of course the two better teams(record wise) were the ones who layed eggs at maidson square garden. The two that needed the wins...made the semi's with 2 big wins.

You could argue that each of those first 5 Buzz teams had extremely bad luck and extremely good luck.

Crazy ride. Basically, I agree with this though. 1 more player would really put those teams over the hump. Man, DJO or Jae really don't care which one on that elite 8 team and we ain't losing to Cuse. DJO probably better fit actually.

[RJax55]

Coming off a nice win is so much more enjoyable than pondering losses, which got me thinking about the last few years and the difference between a program like Marquette and the national powerhouses year in and year out.  With our team, it always seems like we're one player from the previous class which had they been around another year would've taken the next year's squad to much more success.  With your blue bloods, there's enough incoming talent or developing players that the attrition in minimal.  Just look at Buzz's teams following his rookie season with the big 3.

Add Wes to the Lazar and the midgets team
Add Lazar to Butler's senior season with Crowder, DJO
Add Butler to Crowder, DJO, Gardner, Blue and Jamil
Add Crowder to Blue, Gardner, Cadogan, Jamil and Lockett
Add Blue to last year's team with Gardner, Jamil, Mayo and the upside of our freshman
Add Gardner to Duane, Carlino, and Fischer (I think we beat both OSU and MSU even without Luke)

My point of this post is that we were always one player away from being truly special.  Hopefully the success that Crean and Buzz established allows Wojo to get the depth of talent which enables us to cross the threshold and put us in the national conversation as truly one of the best college basketball programs a kid could play at.

Here's the issue I have with this.... You're assuming that by adding an individual or two to the team, you would still get the same or relatively similar performance by the guys that were on that squad. For example, Crowder was the Big East POY his senior season. One of the best individual seasons in MU history. However, you add Jimmy Butler to the mix, does that happen? The case can by made that Jimmy's departure created the opportunity for Jae, which he seized. But without that shot, does Crowder perform at that level?

The same can be said for a number of players on that list. To me, that list illustrates the strength of the MU program from The Amigos up until last year. Guys would step into roles and perform. And, MU won.

Also, I disagree with the idea of depth of talent to be elite. IMO, you need top talent and balance. Look at UCONN last year. Did they have a ton of depth, no. But they had top talent (Napier, Boatright, Daniels) and balance (a number of bigs). Frankly, its the balance that MU has lacked, especially The Amigo teams. Under Buzz, the balance was better, but I don't think the top-talent was there.

[muwarrior69]

The last time we had 13 healthy scholarship player was when...2007? I can also remember the mantra... why can't MU recruit bigs.  I also think now we have a coach that will recruit guys that will fit his SYSTEM of playing TEAM ball that will know how to position themselves to rebound, find the open shot that will actually go in the basket or pass to that open player who can finish the play; players who can actually execute what they learn in practice. We have had some very good athletic players but to my eye never really played "smart" basketball. With Wojo I believe this will change. We were up 20 and he kept reminding them the game is not over and there is still a lot of time on the clock which proves to me he really understands the limitations of the team he has now; especially after allowing them to score so many points in the closing minutes in last nights game.

[mattyv1908]

Here's the issue I have with this.... You're assuming that by adding an individual or two to the team, you would still get the same or relatively similar performance by the guys that were on that squad. For example, Crowder was the Big East POY his senior season. One of the best individual seasons in MU history. However, you add Jimmy Butler to the mix, does that happen? The case can by made that Jimmy's departure created the opportunity for Jae, which he seized. But without that shot, does Crowder perform at that level?

The same can be said for a number of players on that list. To me, that list illustrates the strength of the MU program from The Amigos up until last year. Guys would step into roles and perform. And, MU won.

Also, I disagree with the idea of depth of talent to be elite. IMO, you need top talent and balance. Look at UCONN last year. Did they have a ton of depth, no. But they had top talent (Napier, Boatright, Daniels) and balance (a number of bigs). Frankly, its the balance that MU has lacked, especially The Amigo teams. Under Buzz, the balance was better, but I don't think the top-talent was there.

I think if you look at MU through the years mentioned compared to the national powerhouses the difference is that those teams had three top shelf players and often times our third option was either a year away in developing or struggled with consistency.

[Atticus]

What about all the players that leave blue bloods early for the NBA?

What about the teams right behind the blue bloods that lose players regularly to the NBA?

I'm sure the teams would like to have all of those players back for one more year.

We don't have that problem.

[mattyv1908]

The last time we had 13 healthy scholarship player was when...2007? I can also remember the mantra... why can't MU recruit bigs.  I also think now we have a coach that will recruit guys that will fit his SYSTEM of playing TEAM ball that will know how to position themselves to rebound, find the open shot that will actually go in the basket or pass to that open player who can finish the play; players who can actually execute what they learn in practice. We have had some very good athletic players but to my eye never really played "smart" basketball. With Wojo I believe this will change. We were up 20 and he kept reminding them the game is not over and there is still a lot of time on the clock which proves to me he really understands the limitations of the team he has now; especially after allowing them to score so many points in the closing minutes in last nights game.

If you don't think that Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder and Lazar Hayward were 'smart' enough to play for a coach like Wojo than I honestly don't know what games you were watching when they were suiting up at MU.

All three played out of position.  All three used ball movement, positioning, moving without the basketball, hand speed, footwork and maximum effort to the highest impact possible.

Crowder's senior season may be one of the greatest performances by an MU player since Wade (who is a HOF NBA player) and he certainly didn't achieve that by not playing 'smart'.

[mattyv1908]

What about all the players that leave blue bloods early for the NBA?

What about the teams right behind the blue bloods that lose players regularly to the NBA?

I'm sure the teams would like to have all of those players back for one more year.

We don't have that problem.

Pretty sure Buzz would've loved Blue returning.

[GGGG]

The last time we had 13 healthy scholarship player was when...2007? I can also remember the mantra... why can't MU recruit bigs.  I also think now we have a coach that will recruit guys that will fit his SYSTEM of playing TEAM ball that will know how to position themselves to rebound, find the open shot that will actually go in the basket or pass to that open player who can finish the play; players who can actually execute what they learn in practice. We have had some very good athletic players but to my eye never really played "smart" basketball. With Wojo I believe this will change. We were up 20 and he kept reminding them the game is not over and there is still a lot of time on the clock which proves to me he really understands the limitations of the team he has now; especially after allowing them to score so many points in the closing minutes in last nights game.

I think this is an absolutely ridiculous assessment of Buzz's teams.  They played a system.  They played team ball.  I would agree that Buzz didn't value shooting enough, but let's not act like they were some rogue team playing streetball or something.

[RJax55]

I think if you look at MU through the years mentioned compared to the national powerhouses the difference is that those teams had three top shelf players and often times our third option was either a year away in developing or struggled with consistency.

I see what you're saying. You need three guys to compete against other power teams. I would agree with that.

Perhaps, I'm looking at this too narrowly. I'm looking at it through the lens of... Adding one these guys changes the dynamics of each team, who's success was predicated on having guys step-up into larger roles.

[Atticus]

Pretty sure Buzz would've loved Blue returning.

Ha...last player to leave early since Wade. And VB didn't exactly get drafted...

So that's one....

[mattyv1908]

I see what you're saying. You need three guys to compete against other power teams. I would agree with that.

Perhaps, I'm looking at this too narrowly. I'm looking at it through the lens of... Adding one these guys changes the dynamics of each team, who's success was predicated on having guys step-up into larger roles.

Even looking to the NBA.

Spurs:  Duncan, Ginobili, Parker
Heat:  James, Wade, Bosh
Celtics:  Garnett, Pierce, Allen

Now I agree with you that it can't always come from the upperclassmen, sometimes it has to come from an impact freshman or sophomore.

[mattyv1908]

Ha...last player to leave early since Wade. And VB didn't exactly get drafted...

So that's one....

There's far fewer teams realizing the effects of players leaving early than you think.  They account for 1% of the NCAA division one players.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I still think to this day, had Otule not gotten hurt the 2011-12 season, that's a final 4 team. Had a tough time guarding the interior. Too bad too because that would have been one fun freshman year.

[brandx]

If you don't think that Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder and Lazar Hayward were 'smart' enough to play for a coach like Wojo than I honestly don't know what games you were watching when they were suiting up at MU.

All three played out of position.  All three used ball movement, positioning, moving without the basketball, hand speed, footwork and maximum effort to the highest impact possible.

Crowder's senior season may be one of the greatest performances by an MU player since Wade (who is a HOF NBA player) and he certainly didn't achieve that by not playing 'smart'.

I agree, but think those guys were exceptions when Buzz was here. Generally, he was more concerned about his recruits being "athletes" rather than "basketball players". I think Wojo, at least so far, is looking for basketball players who are athletic as opposed to the other way around.

[Atticus]

So if some of our players could play beyond the restricted number of years...then we would be really good...if no other teams could do the same with their graduated players? Am I following correctly?

[NCMUFan]

Four scorers was the ingredient needed to get in the NCAA tourney in the past.  With Carlino, Luke, Duane and JJJ we may have what it takes.

[We R Final Four]

What about all the players that leave blue bloods early for the NBA?

What about the teams right behind the blue bloods that lose players regularly to the NBA?

I'm sure the teams would like to have all of those players back for one more year.

We don't have that problem.

C'mon now---Vander Blue? Todd Mayo? Didn't those guys leave MU to go pro? We know the pain of losing players early to the league.......D league that is.

[Texas Western]

I still think to this day, had Otule not gotten hurt the 2011-12 season, that's a final 4 team. Had a tough time guarding the interior. Too bad too because that would have been one fun freshman year.

I agree and remember Davante was hurt severely and never really regained his pre injury form when he returned . I loved how that team played.