John Dawson

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

I worked at a restaurant back in high school. Whenever the chefs created a new dish, they would have the entire wait staff try it to see if it was any good. If it wasn't, it didn't get served.

Maybe there's a parallel than can be drawn...

Yes, Dawson will get plenty of playing time when we are up 20 with 2 minutes to go.  He's a situational player .....

[Nevada233]

Yes, Dawson will get plenty of playing time when we are up 20 with 2 minutes to go.  He's a situational player .....

Unless we play Wisconsin Lutheran again were not gonna be up by 20 on anyone this year.

[bamamarquettefan]

Well, I took a lot of abuse on another board for noting that his actual stats last year were just about the worst in the country. However, that was in very limited playing time, and he looked so good in winning the Georgetown game that I would love to see him get a look. However, big picture I do like that Wojo has seemed to decide on a rotation and stick with it after last year's confusion.

[GooooMarquette]

No doubt about it.  We need that 20% FT shooting, non-existent 3 point shooting, and tonight 0 assists.  Soon teams will again sag off Derrick and his one effective move - going to his right off the dribble while closely defended - will be gone as he won't be able to get a step due to the defender sagging off of him 5 feet.  Our conference foes know his game and won't make the same mistake of guarding him honestly as has every team thus far.

Keep focusing on the box score instead of the game, Ners.  Maybe you should tell Wojo about this strategy....

[GGGG]

Are we seriously going to have another season of excuse making from Ners about Dawson... after.. EVERY... F*CKING...GAME???

Last year it was Buzz was sticking it to the administration.  This year is Derrick's the "coaches pet."  Of course it couldn't be that two highly paid men who do this for a living simply didn't think Magic Dawson isn't good enough right?

[GGGG]

Right, sitting behind him for 35 Mpg is very appealing.... Said Nobody

Then he should leave.  If he is so unhappy with his predicament, he can go elsewhere and be satisfied.  Life with go on with both parties.

[GooooMarquette]

Are we seriously going to have another season of excuse making from Ners about Dawson... after.. EVERY... F*CKING...GAME???

If this is a poll, my vote is yes.  As FreeportWarrior stated in another thread, Ners simply doesn't have the maturity to admit when he is wrong.

[brewcity77]

Well, I took a lot of abuse on another board for noting that his actual stats last year were just about the worst in the country. However, that was in very limited playing time, and he looked so good in winning the Georgetown game that I would love to see him get a look. However, big picture I do like that Wojo has seemed to decide on a rotation and stick with it after last year's confusion.

It amazes me how much cherry picking goes on in the Dawson/Wilson debate that, based on the decisions of two highly paid coaching staffs, isn't even a debate. Dawson was bad in limited action. His 84.9 ORtg was the third worst of any player at Marquette in the past decade. The only players to post a worse offensive rating? Dwight Burke & Jamail Jones. Note which name isn't there...Derrick Wilson.

So we hear that Derrick is historically bad, yet Derrick Wilson in his history has never posted a worse offensive season than John Dawson did as a freshman. So cue the excuses...John didn't play enough minutes. But wait...Derrick played about the same minutes as a freshman and posted a higher offensive rating. Derrick's 94.6 ORtg as a junior wasn't great, but it wasn't the worst rating we've seen from a player in college history.

Seriously...the hyperbole is old. Derrick can't shoot threes. Derrick can't shoot free throws. We all know that. But Derrick does provide solid defense (not saying he's MJ, but he's one of the best we have) and knows his weaknesses well enough that he defers to other players. But while we all know what he is, what's more important is that two coaching staffs have told us through minutes what he is as well -- better than the options on the bench.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

No doubt about it.  We need that 20% FT shooting, non-existent 3 point shooting, and tonight 0 assists.  Soon teams will again sag off Derrick and his one effective move - going to his right off the dribble while closely defended - will be gone as he won't be able to get a step due to the defender sagging off of him 5 feet.  Our conference foes know his game and won't make the same mistake of guarding him honestly as has every team thus far.

This.sh!t.again.

Please mods, give this idiot a vacation.

[Wojo'sMojo]

This.sh!t.again.

Please mods, give this idiot a vacation.

I think the guy who calls people idiots should get the vacation.

[MUCam]

This.sh!t.again.

Please mods, give this idiot a vacation.

Didn't he already ban himself? Oh, wait. You actually need integrity to follow through with what you say. Nevermind.

Talk about complete lack of credibility.

Don't worry though. He has some technicality for why he doesn't have to follow his word.

[MU B2002]

This.sh!t.again.

Please mods, give this idiot a vacation.

Hey he has $500 riding on this issue.  Easy to see why he is stressing.

[NersEllenson]

It amazes me how much cherry picking goes on in the Dawson/Wilson debate that, based on the decisions of two highly paid coaching staffs, isn't even a debate. Dawson was bad in limited action. His 84.9 ORtg was the third worst of any player at Marquette in the past decade. The only players to post a worse offensive rating? Dwight Burke & Jamail Jones. Note which name isn't there...Derrick Wilson.

So we hear that Derrick is historically bad, yet Derrick Wilson in his history has never posted a worse offensive season than John Dawson did as a freshman. So cue the excuses...John didn't play enough minutes. But wait...Derrick played about the same minutes as a freshman and posted a higher offensive rating. Derrick's 94.6 ORtg as a junior wasn't great, but it wasn't the worst rating we've seen from a player in college history.

Seriously...the hyperbole is old. Derrick can't shoot threes. Derrick can't shoot free throws. We all know that. But Derrick does provide solid defense (not saying he's MJ, but he's one of the best we have) and knows his weaknesses well enough that he defers to other players. But while we all know what he is, what's more important is that two coaching staffs have told us through minutes what he is as well -- better than the options on the bench.

Try 85.7 for Derrick as a sophomore.  And as has been pointed out - O Ratings are greatly inflated by not turning the ball over....which of course...Derrick doesn't do much of.  Why doesn't Derrick turn the ball over much?  Because he rarely every forces action, penetrates the lane, and generally hasn't been guarded within 5 feet.  So, while he might have a nice Assist to Turnover rating, and O Ratings that are inflated due to his limited amount pushing tempo, penetrating the lane - what can't be denied is that the O-Efficiency rating for last year's team was FAR and away the worst of any Buzz team - while we had one of the most efficient college basketball players on the roster - Gardner. 

Our team O-Ratings under Buzz:  12, 22, 21, 52, 25, and 96 last year.  Hmm - So in Buzz's first 5 years our average rating was 26.4.  In Buzz's last - we well to 96th in the country.  Hmm.  Buzz must have just plain forgotten how to coach a basketball team.

Stats only tell so much of the story.  When your eyes watch a game and you can see a player isn't guarded within 5 feet by your conference foes, and you can see the entire offense bog down as a result - it doesn't matter if that player has a "decent" O-Rating generated largely off of never turning the ball over and getting a few assists (usually off perimeter ball swings or to trailers on a modified fast break)

[4everwarriors]

I could use a vacation

[brewcity77]

What he says...

Blah blah blah

What he means...

Maybe if I keep spinning this same line of BS they'll fall for it. After all, I know so much more about basketball than Buzz or Wojo or anyone on this board because I played in high school! Yaaaaaay Me!

** Braces for insults of my critical thinking skills or some other tired retort **

[NersEllenson]

What he says...

What he means...

** Braces for insults of my critical thinking skills or some other tired retort **

LOL - Just check out my signature Brew.  Says all that needs to be said about your astute basketball analysis.  You've been humping Derrick's leg for over a year now, and have gotten over 1100 minutes of evidence to see the guy doesn't have it.  Meanwhile, my preference, we have 4 minutes of action this season to assess.  Sorry, I'd still like to see a little more game evidence as to why a guy who shoots the ball MUCH better, and sees the floor better can't get some run - especially now that we have both Carlino and Duane capable at PG.  Hard to wrap your head around why a guy that can't shoot is playing off the ball a ton.

And BTW - wasn't shocked at all to learn you are a Star Wars fan.  You most definitely seem the type.

[GooooMarquette]

Try 85.7 for Derrick as a sophomore.

Which is 100% consistent with Brew's statement that Derrick has never had an ORtg as low as John posted last season.

You repeatedly post FG% because it fits your argument, and ignore stats like ORtg because it doesn't...even though ORtg accounts for far more than a single factor.

[Class71]

Folks, it takes two parties to argue. Juts ignore and move on. There is no hope of changing people's minds on this issue so ... save the energy and have a beer.

[NersEllenson]

Which is 100% consistent with Brew's statement that Derrick has never had an ORtg as low as John posted last season.

You repeatedly post FG% because it fits your argument, and ignore stats like ORtg because it doesn't...even though ORtg accounts for far more than a single factor.

Yeah, my bad - as a sophomore, Derrick's O-Rating was .08 better than John's as a freshman.  Attack the argument:  Why do you think Buzz's first 5 teams averaged an team O-Rating of 26th in the country, and then last season we were almost 4 times WORSE than any of Buzz's first 5 teams?  Did Buzz just suddenly forget how to coach offense??

I explained Derrick's O-Rating numbers - it rewards not turning the ball over above all else.  Why does he not turn the ball over?? Because he RARELY makes plays/plays aggressively.  (Which is the EXACT opposite of what a PG should be.)  He's your classic game manager QB at best - he's never going to led you on a game winning drive in the 4th quarter in the 2 minute drill so to speak.  He's the equivalent of Trent Dilfer on the Baltimore Ravens the year he won his Super Bowl - Hey Trent - just don't F it up, because our defense is so incredible, you won't have to score more than 10 points.  Problem is, we aren't good enough defensively (even with Derrick's contributions) to overcome all the warts he presents on the O-end.

[GGGG]

And BTW - wasn't shocked at all to learn you are a Star Wars fan.  You most definitely seem the type.

NERD!!!  BREW IS A NERD EVERYONE!!!!  HE CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BASKETBALL!!!!  I USED TO LOCK HIS TYPES INSIDE MY LOCKER AFTER I PLAYED VARSITY BASKETBALL!!!  (DID EVERYONE KNOW THAT I PLAYED VARSITY BASKETBALL BY THE WAY???)   NERD!!!!

[MU82]

It amazes me how much cherry picking goes on in the Dawson/Wilson debate that, based on the decisions of two highly paid coaching staffs, isn't even a debate. Dawson was bad in limited action. His 84.9 ORtg was the third worst of any player at Marquette in the past decade. The only players to post a worse offensive rating? Dwight Burke & Jamail Jones. Note which name isn't there...Derrick Wilson.

So we hear that Derrick is historically bad, yet Derrick Wilson in his history has never posted a worse offensive season than John Dawson did as a freshman. So cue the excuses...John didn't play enough minutes. But wait...Derrick played about the same minutes as a freshman and posted a higher offensive rating. Derrick's 94.6 ORtg as a junior wasn't great, but it wasn't the worst rating we've seen from a player in college history.

Seriously...the hyperbole is old. Derrick can't shoot threes. Derrick can't shoot free throws. We all know that. But Derrick does provide solid defense (not saying he's MJ, but he's one of the best we have) and knows his weaknesses well enough that he defers to other players. But while we all know what he is, what's more important is that two coaching staffs have told us through minutes what he is as well -- better than the options on the bench.

I generally agree with the Derrick-over-Dawson side of the argument now that a second coach is playing Derrick while burying Dawson on the bench. Both coaches see/saw the players 1000x more than we did, blah blah blah, not gonna rehash it. I thought Dawson should have played more last year because of the "what did we have to lose" argument, but it's ancient history.

In the here and now, I want to see more Duane at point and more JJJ/Cohen on the floor this season, and I'd like those things to come at the expense of Derrick's minutes because I've got my eye on 2015-16 and 2016-17, but maybe that's just me.

Nevertheless ...

ORtg? Effen ORtg? I don't need ORtg or any other stat to tell me that Derrick simply is one of the worst two-year starting major-college PGs I have ever seen. Last season, he was part of perhaps the worst starting major-college backcourt I've ever seen. And I've been closely following college basketball for four decades.

As long as an observer does not have the misfortune of being legally blind, he/she does not need ORtg or any other stats to see this stuff. When a PG can neither shoot nor create for teammates, I don't care what stats say.

And this isn't meant to dump on Derrick, though I know it looks like that's exactly what I'm doing. It isn't his fault he is what he is, because he sure as heck works hard. It also isn't his fault he plays 30+ mpg.

[NersEllenson]

NERD!!!  BREW IS A NERD EVERYONE!!!!  HE CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BASKETBALL!!!!  I USED TO LOCK HIS TYPES INSIDE MY LOCKER AFTER I PLAYED VARSITY BASKETBALL!!!  (DID EVERYONE KNOW THAT I PLAYED VARSITY BASKETBALL BY THE WAY???)   NERD!!!!

LOL - Yeah, go check out his awesome posts in the Star Wars thread.  MEGA NERD!  To each their own of course.  Different strokes for different folks.  While some of us played with basketballs, others were playing with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker action figures.

[GGGG]

I generally agree with the Derrick-over-Dawson side of the argument now that a second coach is playing Derrick while burying Dawson on the bench. Both coaches see/saw the players 1000x more than we did, blah blah blah, not gonna rehash it. I thought Dawson should have played more last year because of the "what did we have to lose" argument, but it's ancient history.

In the here and now, I want to see more Duane at point and more JJJ/Cohen on the floor this season, and I'd like those things to come at the expense of Derrick's minutes because I've got my eye on 2015-16 and 2016-17, but maybe that's just me.

Nevertheless ...

ORtg? Effen ORtg? I don't need ORtg or any other stat to tell me that Derrick simply is one of the worst two-year starting major-college PGs I have ever seen. Last season, he was part of perhaps the worst starting major-college backcourt I've ever seen. And I've been closely following college basketball for four decades.

As long as an observer does not have the misfortune of being legally blind, he/she does not need ORtg or any other stats to see this stuff. When a PG can neither shoot nor create for teammates, I don't care what stats say.

And this isn't meant to dump on Derrick, though I know it looks like that's exactly what I'm doing. It isn't his fault he is what he is, because he sure as heck works hard. It also isn't his fault he plays 30+ mpg.

I don't think brew would disagree with a single word of this.  Those of us who agreed with the decision to play Derrick, freely admitted that he was substandard.  The best of bad options.

[GGGG]

LOL - Yeah, go check out his awesome posts in the Star Wars thread.  MEGA NERD!  To each their own of course.  Different strokes for different folks.  While some of us played with basketballs, others were playing with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker action figures.

This is really top notch, middle school level insulting right here.

[brewcity77]

This is true...

Folks, it takes two parties to argue. Juts ignore and move on.

But this...

There is no hope of changing people's minds on this issue so ... save the energy and have a beer.

Actually, I have changed my mind on Derrick. Watching how well he played last year from the end of November through the middle of December, I thought he could be a very productive player for us. Over that span he was very efficient, and it wasn't just against cupcakes, but solid teams like Arizona State, George Washington, and San Diego State. At the time, my thought process was that he wasn't good enough to be a star, but he was good enough to be a contributing starter on a good team.

For whatever reason, that didn't happen. Part of it was Derrick's limitations offensively, part of it was the failure of Jamil, Todd, and the others around him to become the consistent, assertive players we needed. But at the end of the day, Derrick was definitely a part of the problem. Not enough of a threat from beyond the arc, and while he does well drawing fouls, he doesn't capitalize often enough when he does. Still a plus defender and excellent at protecting the ball. He has attributes, but there's definitely some glaring holes in his game.

Now I feel I see see Derrick for what he is. Not as good as I hoped he could be, but certainly not as bad as some of the people who worship at the altar of Hate-Derrick think he is. He's a plus defensive player, he does a good job of settling the offense and initiating the offense, but once the ball is out of his hands he doesn't offer much unless he can cut to the rim, which is pretty much his only offensive move. He has okay court vision and creates some nice assists, but he can only go right and doesn't possess enough of a shooting threat to pull defenders to him, so he accounts for fewer assists than he could if he were a better shooter. I do really like that he can play both on the inside and outside of the zone, thanks to his strength.

As far as the quote Ners likes to display, I stand by it. Junior would not have fixed the problems with last year's team. What last year needed was an aggressive, attacking offensive player. What last year needed was Vander Blue. Junior would have probably helped us win 3-4 games that we lost because Derrick wasn't enough of a threat, but Junior also would have lost us 2-3 games that we would have won because of Junior's porous defense and tendencies to turn the ball over. Junior would have maybe given us 1-2 more wins, but we wouldn't have been markedly better and we wouldn't have been a tournament team, unless you count the NIT.

I feel a wise man is one who is willing to change his opinion when evidence is presented. My opinion on Derrick has definitely changed. Still love the kid, but he's at best probably going to be the worst starter on a tournament team, and only then when surrounded by an excellent supporting cast (which last year he definitely was not), and is far better suited to be a reliable backup who specializes in coming in to help defend a lead. But on last year's team and this year's team, there simply aren't enough other options.

Blame Buzz for not recruiting enough quality players in the backcourt, blame Junior for burning his redshirt and not being around last year, blame Duane for not being healthy enough to play last year, but don't blame Derrick or John for not being good enough. I will give both of those kids this -- they do give their all when given a chance. In both cases, it's not enough to make them difference-makers on a regular basis, but they both compete and have given a ton more to Marquette than anyone else on this board.

And if I'm overly critical of John sometimes...I do apologize for that. I admit I defend Derrick but only because his haters are so maniacal in the way they try to manufacture criticisms. Their use of John Dawson as a straw man leads to him somewhat being an unfair scapegoat, both for their unjustified praise and my (and others) unjustified criticisms.