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Author Topic: Talent  (Read 24966 times)

humanlung

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Re: Talent
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2014, 01:20:12 PM »
1) New coach?  Check.
2) New style of play?  Check.
3) New philosophy? Check.
4) New lineup with almost no returning experience?  Check.
5) Missing a key player for...three more weeks?  Check.

6) Same old hysterical over-reaction from a segment of the fan base?  Check.

Numbers 1 through 5, in my opinion, explain a lot of what we are seeing now.  By January, it will look a lot different.

Number 6 is just sad.  Let's calm down, shall we?  We ALL knew that this team was incredibly inexperienced and this year was going to be rough, especially early on.  If you want to be hysterical, go run for Congress.

willie warrior

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Re: Talent
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2014, 01:22:07 PM »
Well, the problem is the alternative. Carlino is better offensively, but he's not even a sieve on defense. At least a sieve stops the big pieces of sediment. Duane is better offensively, but still a work in progress on defense. Dawson is worse offensively and worse defensively. And at the end of the day, most of the time two of these four will be out there together.

It's easy to say "let's play Carlino and Duane both 40" but that's just stupid. We all know that won't happen. And from a defensive perspective, that'd be suicide against any decent guards. We only have the players on this roster to work with, and Derrick, like it or not, is one of the better players from a net perspective on this roster. He's going to play. Some people may not like that, just like they didn't like it last year, but it's reality. Buzz looked at this roster and knew Derrick had to play. Wojo looked at this roster and knew Derrick had to play. When the season is all said and done, he will likely average 20-25 minutes.

Maybe, maybe when Luke gets back, we'll end up working more zone in, which will lessen the need for Derrick. He's our best man-on-man defender in the backcourt, but in a zone we could get away with sitting him more in favor of the better offensive players. But until we see that change, and especially until we see some actual effort out of some of the other guys that aren't playing defense, you're going to get all the Derrick you can handle.
Well.....since "we will be getting all the Derrick we can handle"... we will "be getting a hell of a lot more losses than we can handle", and it does not take a rocket scientist to discern that.
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GGGG

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Re: Talent
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2014, 01:25:20 PM »
Well.....since "we will be getting all the Derrick we can handle"... we will "be getting a hell of a lot more losses than we can handle", and it does not take a rocket scientist to discern that.


So we are going to be pinning this season on Derrick too just like last season?  That should be fun...

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Talent
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2014, 01:26:39 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any recruits for 2015 Wojo is looking at? Am thinking of a confident point
guard who would take over and run the offense. I hope Nick can do it. But 2 are better than 1.

I think the job should be Duane's, full-time, effective immediately. Live with the growing pains, this is going to be a frustrating season anyway. He can spread the floor with his shooting, and most importantly he is the only one on the team that has displayed the ability to break down the defense off the dribble-drive, leading to opportunities for himself and others. Having a PG with this ability is pretty much crucial to offensive effectiveness these days. Playing him there now will pay massive dividends next year when we add Henry to the fold, IMHO.

humanlung

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Re: Talent
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2014, 01:28:18 PM »
I think the job should be Duane's, full-time, effective immediately. Live with the growing pains, this is going to be a frustrating season anyway. He can spread the floor with his shooting, and most importantly he is the only one on the team that has displayed the ability to break down the defense off the dribble-drive, leading to opportunities for himself and others. Having a PG with this ability is pretty much crucial to offensive effectiveness these days. Playing him there now will pay massive dividends next year when we add Henry to the fold, IMHO.

Hard to argue this point...  Better to take the pain now and have an experienced Soph PG for next year.

brandx

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Re: Talent
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2014, 01:31:05 PM »

So we are going to be pinning this season on Derrick too just like last season?  That should be fun...

This just reminded me of all the discussions here over how important practice is and if it means more to a coach when choosing his lineup than the games do.

I'm kinda in the middle on this - I think the games are just as important even though much more time is spent practicing.

The best example from yesterday's game was Duane Wilson wanting to take over in the last few minutes. I don't think that is something that a coach can necessarily learn from practice - who really wants the ball with the game on the line.

GGGG

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Re: Talent
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2014, 01:32:45 PM »
Well yeah.  Duane looked great yesterday.  Of the young players out there, he is by far the one I am most excited about.

But I guess my point is that if someone looks at that game and pins all the issues on Derrick, they aren't seeing everything.  There was a ton of blame to go around.

MU82

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Re: Talent
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2014, 01:36:04 PM »
My only problem with this thinking is that I've seen Derrick get burnt several times in the extended D we're playing this year too. If the difference between him and a guy like Duane or Sandy or even Dawson on defense is minimal (because they're all getting burnt to varying degrees), what's the point of playing him over any of them, much less heavy minutes?

Fair question, and please know that (as my posting history will show), I am not the biggest Derrick fan. I don't think he is a high-major PG.

Derrick does get burned sometimes (everybody does), but I believe he gets burned quite a bit less often than JJJ does and, especially, Duane does. Our rebounding blows and Derrick is a pretty good rebounder for a little guy. He also isn't a risk-taker on offense while the younger players around him (plus Juan) tend to take a lot of risks. All of the stuff I mentioned in this paragraph no doubt gives a coach some comfort.

I still wouldn't play Derrick more than 20 mpg. I'd prefer 15. I'm just saying I can see why Wojo does play him more now -- especially with Carlino not being especially effective. Hopefully, as the younger guys prove themselves more, particularly on D, they will steal some of Derrick's PT.
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willie warrior

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Re: Talent
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2014, 01:37:37 PM »

So we are going to be pinning this season on Derrick too just like last season?  That should be fun...
Not all of it Sultan, there are other holes--but 30 plus minutes will be a disaster as it was last year----which you with all your "professed" intelligence cannot get your brain around.
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tower912

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Re: Talent
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2014, 01:43:06 PM »
Duane started Monday, and IMO earned the right to start next game.   I think he will get more minutes at the 2 for now, eventually getting more at the 1.   But again, look at context.  Look at the number of other players and their relative strengths and weaknesses.  If everybody else took care of the ball and played really great defense,  if there was size and depth and production at the other positions perhaps Wojo would be able to play Duane 25 mpg at the point.   Right now, that simply isn't the case.    I think he has the most PG skills on the team.   That doesn't mean that on this team, this year, right now, he should be starting at the point.   
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Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Talent
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2014, 01:43:36 PM »
Fair question, and please know that (as my posting history will show), I am not the biggest Derrick fan. I don't think he is a high-major PG.

Derrick does get burned sometimes (everybody does), but I believe he gets burned quite a bit less often than JJJ does and, especially, Duane does. Our rebounding blows and Derrick is a pretty good rebounder for a little guy. He also isn't a risk-taker on offense while the younger players around him (plus Juan) tend to take a lot of risks. All of the stuff I mentioned in this paragraph no doubt gives a coach some comfort.

I still wouldn't play Derrick more than 20 mpg. I'd prefer 15. I'm just saying I can see why Wojo does play him more now -- especially with Carlino not being especially effective. Hopefully, as the younger guys prove themselves more, particularly on D, they will steal some of Derrick's PT.

Fair points as well, especially agree with the bolded portion.

brewcity77

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Re: Talent
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2014, 01:47:09 PM »
I actually expect excruciating consistency from Derrick.

The vast majority of his games have been just like last night's. The games like he had against Omaha this season and Arizona State last season were outliers -- significantly outside the norm.

That's actually not really the case. He's not a scorer, that doesn't mean he isn't a contributor. Arizona State was his best game last year, but he played well offensively against Grambling (who didn't?), Cal State Fullerton, George Washington, Ball State, @ Butler, Xavier (all 3), Providence, @ St. John's, Seton Hall, and Creighton he was definitely a positive on offense. That is 12 of the 32 games we played in last year, which is a pretty significant number of times to be one of the better offensive players on the team. His averages from those 12 games:

8.6 ppg
3.4 rpg
5.8 apg
1.2 tpg
50.6% FG (40/79)
55.0% FT (22/40)

While those aren't all-Big East numbers, those are very solid numbers for a starting point guard, better than any year Junior Cadougan had here by far. The problem is in the other 20 games, these were his averages:

2.9 ppg
4.1 rpg
3.3 apg
1.7 tpg
27.3% FG (21/77)
34.8% FT (16/46)

That's a pretty big disparity between good Derrick and bad Derrick. His defense, rebounding, and turnovers were consistent, but while he gave us some very good offensive games, he also gave us some real stinkers. And yes...I realize this is cherry picking, but when you are talking about how a player is erratically inconsistent, cherry picking is really the only way to demonstrate that. Further, it didn't matter if it was against good teams or bad teams, he was just either on or off.
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Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Talent
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2014, 01:48:47 PM »
Duane started Monday, and IMO earned the right to start next game.   I think he will get more minutes at the 2 for now, eventually getting more at the 1.   But again, look at context.  Look at the number of other players and their relative strengths and weaknesses.  If everybody else took care of the ball and played really great defense,  if there was size and depth and production at the other positions perhaps Wojo would be able to play Duane 25 mpg at the point.   Right now, that simply isn't the case.    I think he has the most PG skills on the team.   That doesn't mean that on this team, this year, right now, he should be starting at the point.   

I get where you're coming from. I just don't think you make decisions on the mpg and position distribution based on what might make you slightly more competitive this year when we have such a low ceiling to begin with. If the long-term plan is to play Duane at the 1, and he's the best PG on the team this year, play him at the 1 and get him primed for next year. I also happen to think it would make the team more effective this year too, but what do I know? I'm a bear, I suck the heads off fish.

brewcity77

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Re: Talent
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2014, 01:50:34 PM »
He's in on a few. MarQus Lovett matches what you are describing.

I'd be surprised to see us get LoVett considering how late we got in on him. Seems like since the season started, the staff has been spending more time looking at JUCO players. I think they want someone who can contribute immediately. I wouldn't be surprised to see 1-2 immediately eligible players added to the roster next year.
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tower912

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Re: Talent
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2014, 01:53:09 PM »
I completely understand your argument.  But if Dawson isn't going to play, that leaves 25 mpg for the other 8.   If you drop Derrick, who can only play the point, down to 10-12, along with the fact that Deonte isn't really productive, Carlino and JJJ are inconsistent, and Sandy is a freshman, the challenge for Wojo is to try to put a team out there.   You can't bench everybody.   And you can't play Derrick anywhere other than the point.    So give me a minutes distribution with Duane getting 25 mpg at the point.   It isn't pretty.   
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:57:34 PM by tower912 »
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MU82

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Re: Talent
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2014, 02:00:00 PM »
That's actually not really the case. He's not a scorer, that doesn't mean he isn't a contributor. Arizona State was his best game last year, but he played well offensively against Grambling (who didn't?), Cal State Fullerton, George Washington, Ball State, @ Butler, Xavier (all 3), Providence, @ St. John's, Seton Hall, and Creighton he was definitely a positive on offense. That is 12 of the 32 games we played in last year, which is a pretty significant number of times to be one of the better offensive players on the team. His averages from those 12 games:

8.6 ppg
3.4 rpg
5.8 apg
1.2 tpg
50.6% FG (40/79)
55.0% FT (22/40)

While those aren't all-Big East numbers, those are very solid numbers for a starting point guard, better than any year Junior Cadougan had here by far. The problem is in the other 20 games, these were his averages:

2.9 ppg
4.1 rpg
3.3 apg
1.7 tpg
27.3% FG (21/77)
34.8% FT (16/46)

That's a pretty big disparity between good Derrick and bad Derrick. His defense, rebounding, and turnovers were consistent, but while he gave us some very good offensive games, he also gave us some real stinkers. And yes...I realize this is cherry picking, but when you are talking about how a player is erratically inconsistent, cherry picking is really the only way to demonstrate that. Further, it didn't matter if it was against good teams or bad teams, he was just either on or off.

Good numbers, brew. I was thinking consistent as in "consistent threat to score." So he's very consistent there, because he consistently isn't a threat!

Those 20 games are butt-ugly, I think even Derrick's strongest supporters would admit. Anyway, the purpose here wasn't to bash Derrick. As I said in another comment, I actually can see why Wojo leans heavily on him.
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brewcity77

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Re: Talent
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2014, 02:06:26 PM »
The way Wojo is playing, we almost always have two point guards on the floor. Yes, Derrick usually brings it up and initiates the offense, but with Carlino and Duane, we almost always have two points out there. Duane is going to get his chances to see the game, handle the ball, and dish it off whether we classify him as a 1 or a 2. Think back to Acker and Cooby. Who was the 1? Who was the 2? Hell, the 2 was more DJO than anyone else, even though in a conventional 1-5 system you'd call him the 3.

It's a really small sample size, but I'm getting excited about Duane. He has the opportunity to be remembered as one of the greatest 4-year players in Marquette history. His redshirt year has him ready to contribute at this level and the lack of depth means he's going to get chances and be allowed to make mistakes. Could he average 12 ppg this year? If so, it's not at all inconceivable that in a few years we'll be watching eagerly to see if he can break Jerel's career scoring mark.

I know it's way too early to think about that, but that's the kind of stuff that pops in when my mind wanders...
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brandx

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Re: Talent
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2014, 02:33:02 PM »
I'd be surprised to see us get LoVett considering how late we got in on him. Seems like since the season started, the staff has been spending more time looking at JUCO players. I think they want someone who can contribute immediately. I wouldn't be surprised to see 1-2 immediately eligible players added to the roster next year.


That's been my thinking as well. Look to add a juco with some bulk for next year.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Talent
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2014, 03:53:53 PM »
Not calling anyone out specifically, but I think people are giving up on Carlino way too early. His defense needs a lot of work, but he has been one of our better offensive players in the first four games.

Carlino's line so far: 8.5 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 tpg, .368 3P

He also leads the team in 3PM. I think Carlino will be the PG going forward, with Duane/JJJ holding down the SG depending on who has the hot hand. If Carlino can fix his defense, he will be a solid contributor all season.
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willie warrior

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Re: Talent
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2014, 04:14:39 PM »
Not calling anyone out specifically, but I think people are giving up on Carlino way too early. His defense needs a lot of work, but he has been one of our better offensive players in the first four games.

Carlino's line so far: 8.5 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.3 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 tpg, .368 3P

He also leads the team in 3PM. I think Carlino will be the PG going forward, with Duane/JJJ holding down the SG depending on who has the hot hand. If Carlino can fix his defense, he will be a solid contributor all season.
But that is not happening. Derrick is generating 30 plus minutes. And he contributed nothing in the last game, except 0-5 FG; 0-2 FT's at crunch; etc.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Talent
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2014, 04:40:17 PM »
But that is not happening. Derrick is generating 30 plus minutes. And he contributed nothing in the last game, except 0-5 FG; 0-2 FT's at crunch; etc.

He's averaging 25 minutes a game right now. He played 35 in the Omaha game where he dropped in 17 points, 3 rebounds, and 5 assists on 8-13 shooting with only one turnover. Probably makes sense that he's in there. He played 32 against NJIT. Offense was bad as you pointed out but his defense was dare I say gamechanging? (That was just for you Willie). Held their top player to 13 points on 4-20 shooting (3-12 from 3 and 1-8 from 2) and at least one of those threes was when Duane was guarding him. Considering his replacement was having an awful offensive and defensive game, he seemed like the better option to me.

That being said, I think Carlino will get his mojo back and end up being our starting PG going forward. Derrick will retain his role as the backup.
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brewcity77

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Re: Talent
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2014, 04:45:12 PM »
But that is not happening. Derrick is generating 30 plus minutes. And he contributed nothing in the last game, except 0-5 FG; 0-2 FT's at crunch; etc.

In the last 8 minutes of the game, NJIT's leading scorer, Damon Lynn, went 1/7 from the field. The only shot he hit was over Duane. In the other 6 instances, Derrick was on him. Not all of those defenses were Derrick, but he did a great job stopping their best offensive player. There was only one shot taken by Lynn where Derrick wasn't right on him, and that was because Derrick was on the floor fighting for a loose ball that squirted out of the pile right into Lynn's hands (took a 3, came up short with Juan's hand in his face).

As I said earlier, we essentially have three guys playing two point guard positions. Derrick is rarely out there without Carlino or Duane alongside him in a dual-point role. They provide the offense, he guards the opponent's best offensive guard. Neither Carlino nor Duane are going to play 40 mpg. Someone has to be in that other PG role when Carlino and Duane aren't out there together. There is no one else.
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jakeec

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Re: Talent
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2014, 05:08:51 PM »
Marquette has 7 guys ranked top 100.  With Fischer, there is 8.  The cupboard is not bare.  The talent is there.

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Re: Talent
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2014, 05:37:03 PM »
Marquette has 7 guys ranked top 100.  With Fischer, there is 8.  The cupboard is not bare.  The talent is there.
Indeed. The talent just needs to develop and get some experience.  Not the type of talent that just comes in and wins.  The type of talent that can become winners with some work/effort.

We will get there.

willie warrior

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Re: Talent
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2014, 05:37:08 PM »
He's averaging 25 minutes a game right now. He played 35 in the Omaha game where he dropped in 17 points, 3 rebounds, and 5 assists on 8-13 shooting with only one turnover. Probably makes sense that he's in there. He played 32 against NJIT. Offense was bad as you pointed out but his defense was dare I say gamechanging? (That was just for you Willie). Held their top player to 13 points on 4-20 shooting (3-12 from 3 and 1-8 from 2) and at least one of those threes was when Duane was guarding him. Considering his replacement was having an awful offensive and defensive game, he seemed like the better option to me.

That being said, I think Carlino will get his mojo back and end up being our starting PG going forward. Derrick will retain his role as the backup.
He ain't considered a backup getting 32 minutes like against NJIT. And don't use 25 minutes when he only played 10 minutes in one game because of an injury. Let me know when he has been relegated to Backup. Next game starting lineup will have Derrick, Carlino and Duane as the starters, That ain't backup.
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