Grinders

[The Lens]

There are 6 RSCI Top 100 guys on this team and that will jump to 7 when Luke Fisher can play.  That doesn't count Carlino who was recruited by Indiana and UCLA.

To keep saying the cupboard is bare not accurate.  Maybe the stuff in the cupboard was over-priced but there's stuff in the cupboard.  What apparently is not in the cupboard is enough grinders.  Enough guys who will get back on defense, who will kill for a rebound or dive out of bounds.

We saw Lazar and the midgets make a tourney run, it has been done small here before but our undersized teams fought for it. 

Everyone keeps saying help is on the way...well to me it looks like a lot of what we have.  On paper we have great talent.  Aside from Henry who is a game changer, we're just adding more Top 100's.  Hopefully those guys and these guys will find that grinder mind-set that has come to define MU over the past decade plus.

[jficke13]

This reminds me of Deadspin's regular mockery of sportwriters' obsession with GRIT.

[The Lens]

This reminds me of Deadspin's regular mockery of sportwriters' obsession with GRIT.

Yeah, I agree it can be cliche but something is missing and it's not Top 100 players.  Maybe it's just experience...

Or maybe it's some gritty, gutsy, lunch pail, blue collar workers who ride in vans and order meals by combo number.

[brewcity77]

I can't help but wonder if some of these top-100 kids were overrated coming out. Might they have looked more dominant simply because they didn't have to fight for time, or they played against a lower level of competition than they could have, or they simply coasted on their athleticism?

RSCI rankings show you what journalists think. We have a team that looks great on paper, but so far they haven't shown they can translate that to the court. We have athletes in uniforms, but few of them have actually proven they are basketball players.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Or maybe it's some gritty, gutsy, lunch pail, blue collar workers who ride in vans and order meals by combo number.

You lead the league in cliches per sentence.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Here's a few other clichés: chemistry, gelling, greater than the sum of their parts.  New coach with a new system and leadership expectations from a transfer point guard.  It's going to take a little time.  I'll take a worse-than-expected OOC record if it provides learning opportunities that create a better-than-expected conference record.  Because for all this overused discussion of intangibles, one thing you can measure is progress

[mu03eng]

Somewhere ZFB is really disappointed at the content of this thread given the misleading title.

[mu-rara]

Progress comes over a season.  You don't flip a switch.

[Ellisium]

There are 6 RSCI Top 100 guys on this team and that will jump to 7 when Luke Fisher can play.  That doesn't count Carlino who was recruited by Indiana and UCLA.

To keep saying the cupboard is bare not accurate.  Maybe the stuff in the cupboard was over-priced but there's stuff in the cupboard.  What apparently is not in the cupboard is enough grinders.  Enough guys who will get back on defense, who will kill for a rebound or dive out of bounds.

We saw Lazar and the midgets make a tourney run, it has been done small here before but our undersized teams fought for it. 

Everyone keeps saying help is on the way...well to me it looks like a lot of what we have.  On paper we have great talent.  Aside from Henry who is a game changer, we're just adding more Top 100's.  Hopefully those guys and these guys will find that grinder mind-set that has come to define MU over the past decade plus.

Thank you Lens.  You are definitely correct.  

As far as grinders go .... that remains to be seen.  I can tell you this, though - After reading the scouting reports on Wojo's recruiting class they all have two things in common:

1. Hi IQ
2. Pass the ball well

I can say that this team does move the ball well so it seems based on recruiting and what we see now is that there's one identifiable trait of what type of team Wojo wants to field.   The IQ portion doesn't translate well with this team at all.  The lack of defensive attributes does worry me, though.  Offensively, Wojo is recruiting a well balanced offense.

Brief Scouting Reports
1. Noskowiak - PG that passes very well and controls tempo.  
2. Haniff Cheatem - SG that can slash to the hoop, pass, and handle the ball.  Great hands
3. Ellenson - PF   Pick and pop shooter than can hit 2 with elite accuracy or score 3 pointer.  Very Strong
4. Heldt - Center  Plays with back to the basket and can score from either block.  Also can hit the 3 pointer.  Good Hands

After reading these, it seems Wojo is creating his team in a high powered offensive mold.  If these guys pan out and produce as their scouting report says .... they will essentially have an offense that can score from the following:

Passing Penetration
Dribble Penetration
Beyond the 3 pt line from multiple bigs
Jump shots
Post Up

MU, in the future, will be able to spread teams out as their bigs can shoot from deep.  This will open up dribble penetration for the guards.     I find this quite interesting as Wojo preached defense first when he arrived, yet he seems to be building an offensive juggernaut.  

[GGGG]

I can't help but wonder if some of these top-100 kids were overrated coming out. Might they have looked more dominant simply because they didn't have to fight for time, or they played against a lower level of competition than they could have, or they simply coasted on their athleticism?

RSCI rankings show you what journalists think. We have a team that looks great on paper, but so far they haven't shown they can translate that to the court. We have athletes in uniforms, but few of them have actually proven they are basketball players.

Brew, you missed it when you were on hiatus, but I had a post about Vander Blue and if he was overrated or not.  He really wasn't if you look at those around him on RSCI and how they turned out.  It just turned out that our expectations were probably too high.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44538.msg642356#msg642356

This might also turn out to be the case regarding JJJ and Deonte when all is said and done.

[JakeBarnes]

In basketball, we call them traditionals bringing "grit."

During the days of my Cubs blogging, we referred to players such as Theriot and Reed Johnson as contributing to the "scrappy white player index" of winning.

Tomato, tomato (that really loses something on the internet). Either way what the team needs is unit cohesion, not some Hawk Harrelson-blubbered intangible concept served as a statistically significant measurement.

[keefe]

This reminds me of Deadspin's regular mockery of sportwriters' obsession with GRIT.

Rural American Know How

[brewcity77]

Brew, you missed it when you were on hiatus, but I had a post about Vander Blue and if he was overrated or not.  He really wasn't if you look at those around him on RSCI and how they turned out.  It just turned out that our expectations were probably too high.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44538.msg642356#msg642356

This might also turn out to be the case regarding JJJ and Deonte when all is said and done.

Excellent post, and looks dead on correct. The expectation seems to be that Jajuan Johnson would become Dion Waiters, Deonte Burton would become dominant, and everything I've heard based on his play at the D4 level is that Duane Wilson will be the best point guard at Marquette since at least Diener. I'll admit, at least when it comes to Burton, I've fed into that myself. But so far, Jajuan is streaky on offense and a liability on defense, Burton is a black hole that can provide some highlight reel moments but doesn't put enough effort in, and Duane...well, three games in it's tough to really fairly evaluate, so we'll just say the jury is out.

Before that, Juan and Steve have clearly never been stars while Fischer and Sandy have shown flashes in the small sample size but aren't close to being established starters, much less stars. And that's the 7 RSCI top-100 guys Wojo inherited. If you include Carlino, well, he can score a bit, has good court vision, but is a terrible defender.

All that's left is Derrick and Dawson. One can play at this level, though at an average rate, the other has had one good game and otherwise been a void in his career. So what did Wojo inherit? I'd say not a whole lot. The question is if he can turn these guys into a team, because they sure as hell don't look like one now.

[willie warrior]

Grinders are real good when made with Italian Beef on Jewish rye bread.

Grits are not good. At. All.

[jficke13]

In basketball, we call them traditionals bringing "grit."

During the days of my Cubs blogging, we referred to players such as Theriot and Reed Johnson as contributing to the "scrappy white player index" of winning.

Tomato, tomato (that really loses something on the internet). Either way what the team needs is unit cohesion, not some Hawk Harrelson-blubbered intangible concept served as a statistically significant measurement.

Yeah they mercilessly rip overvaluing "scrappy" or "gritty" players (See everything they wrote about the D-Backs last year)  over valuing quantifiable performance metrics.

[Texas Western]

Excellent post, and looks dead on correct. The expectation seems to be that Jajuan Johnson would become Dion Waiters, Deonte Burton would become dominant, and everything I've heard based on his play at the D4 level is that Duane Wilson will be the best point guard at Marquette since at least Diener. I'll admit, at least when it comes to Burton, I've fed into that myself. But so far, Jajuan is streaky on offense and a liability on defense, Burton is a black hole that can provide some highlight reel moments but doesn't put enough effort in, and Duane...well, three games in it's tough to really fairly evaluate, so we'll just say the jury is out.

Before that, Juan and Steve have clearly never been stars while Fischer and Sandy have shown flashes in the small sample size but aren't close to being established starters, much less stars. And that's the 7 RSCI top-100 guys Wojo inherited. If you include Carlino, well, he can score a bit, has good court vision, but is a terrible defender.

All that's left is Derrick and Dawson. One can play at this level, though at an average rate, the other has had one good game and otherwise been a void in his career. So what did Wojo inherit? I'd say not a whole lot. The question is if he can turn these guys into a team, because they sure as hell don't look like one now.

I thought JJJ showed excellent defense in the Tennessee Martin game, so we know he has the ability. It is up to the coaches to get that out of him every game.

[brewcity77]

I thought JJJ showed excellent defense in the Tennessee Martin game, so we know he has the ability. It is up to the coaches to get that out of him every game.

JJJ's defense in that game was reminiscent of Jerel. Did a good job of jumping lanes, getting steals, but I'm not sure it was actually good defense. When you try to jump lanes and miss, you just end up out of position. That hurt Jerel from time to time, but on a team where you don't have other solid defenders like James and Matthews along side you and guys that will stick to their assignments down low like Burke and Hayward, those mistakes will be amplified. Sadly, good defense is not measured by steals but rather stops. Steals are great, but that shouldn't be your primary way to stop your opponent, and right now it seems to be the only way JJJ knows how.

They may not have been the most acclaimed players, but what I wouldn't give for this team to have a Maurice Acker and Dwight Burke on the roster. Smart players that just did their job. We don't have enough of that.

[MerrittsMustache]

In basketball, we call them traditionals bringing "grit."

During the days of my Cubs blogging, we referred to players such as Theriot and Reed Johnson as contributing to the "scrappy white player index" of winning.

Tomato, tomato (that really loses something on the internet). Either way what the team needs is unit cohesion, not some Hawk Harrelson-blubbered intangible concept served as a statistically significant measurement.

I tell ya, Stoney, what this Marquette team needs is T-dubya-T-dubya.

[4everwarriors]

Maybe we need some twerkers, aina?

[mattyv1908]

Say what you want, but the guys that bought into what Buzz was doing played hard.  Getting out efforted was a rare event in the Williams era.  Even last year's team played hard.

On the contrary, Duke basketball may be a lot of things, but I don't think using the word 'physical' would ever be near the top of potential descriptive words for their play.

This team needs some edge in my opinion.

[MerrittsMustache]

Say what you want, but the guys that bought into what Buzz was doing played hard.  Getting out efforted was a rare event in the Williams era.  Even last year's team played hard.

On the contrary, Duke basketball may be a lot of things, but I don't think using the word 'physical' would ever be near the top of potential descriptive words for their play.

This team needs some edge in my opinion.

Playing hard and playing physical aren't the same thing.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I tell ya, Stoney, what this Marquette team needs is T-dubya-T-dubya.

The TWTW is how you get a 10,000 SF home in Scottsdale, Stone Poney. Ya' gotta cinch it up and hunker down, dadgum it.  The bad guys are really in the cat-bird seat, let me tell you what.  Mercy!

[MU82]

I saw the post title and harkened back to the sub sammiches of my youth. We'd go down to the deli by the beach and get a roast beef grinder or a meatball grinder.

We do have a lotta skinny players. Maybe they could use a few of those grinders!

Look, the whole sum-of-the-parts thing is a cliche, but it also is true in an ultimate team game like basketball. We probably don't have enough guys to do the dirty work. We certainly don't have enough size. It simply might not be the right combination of talents this season -- just as it obviously wasn't last season.

[hairy worthen]

Maybe we need some twerkers, aina?

[brandx]

There are 6 RSCI Top 100 guys on this team and that will jump to 7 when Luke Fisher can play.  That doesn't count Carlino who was recruited by Indiana and UCLA.

To keep saying the cupboard is bare not accurate.  Maybe the stuff in the cupboard was over-priced but there's stuff in the cupboard.  What apparently is not in the cupboard is enough grinders.  Enough guys who will get back on defense, who will kill for a rebound or dive out of bounds.

We saw Lazar and the midgets make a tourney run, it has been done small here before but our undersized teams fought for it. 

Everyone keeps saying help is on the way...well to me it looks like a lot of what we have.  On paper we have great talent.  Aside from Henry who is a game changer, we're just adding more Top 100's.  Hopefully those guys and these guys will find that grinder mind-set that has come to define MU over the past decade plus.

I've said all along that the problem isn't the talent, but the mix of talent. We have no center and one power forward who has shown he cannot play the position on defense. Steve played 17 minutes last game because of his refusal to play defense which means that Juan was our only center/PF for the majority of the game. No coach is going to win with that. Even against Omaha.

On the perimeter, we have skinny guys who don't have solid defensive fundamentals. Their quickness will create turnovers, but they were either never taught by the previous coach how to play 'D' or they don't want to do it. Our previous coach spent the majority of his time teaching these guys how to play defense and we see the results.

I will judge Wojo when he is coaching guys that he recruited. Then, if we end up with a mix like this - which I don't think we will - it will be on him. Right now the makeup of the team is 100% on the hillbilly.

With Otule, Davante, and Jamil waiting in the middle, guards had to think twice about going into the lane. There is no fear when the big man is only 6'6".

[brandx]

Say what you want, but the guys that bought into what Buzz was doing played hard.  Getting out efforted was a rare event in the Williams era.  Even last year's team played hard.

On the contrary, Duke basketball may be a lot of things, but I don't think using the word 'physical' would ever be near the top of potential descriptive words for their play.

This team needs some edge in my opinion.

Going 6'6", 6'4" and 6'4" across the front line means guys are going to shoot layups all game. Playing physical doesn't make you taller.

[willie warrior]

Somebody start a poll: Grinders; New Orleans Muffaletta Sandwiches; or real Philly Cheesesteak. Now there would really be a tough pick.

[source?]

Grinders are real good when made with Italian Beef on Jewish rye bread.

Grits are not good. At. All.

My Connecticut mother did this boy a great disservice by calling subs grinders the whole time I was growing up. People in WI look at you like you have two heads when use that one around here.

[Texas Western]

JJJ's defense in that game was reminiscent of Jerel. Did a good job of jumping lanes, getting steals, but I'm not sure it was actually good defense. When you try to jump lanes and miss, you just end up out of position. That hurt Jerel from time to time, but on a team where you don't have other solid defenders like James and Matthews along side you and guys that will stick to their assignments down low like Burke and Hayward, those mistakes will be amplified. Sadly, good defense is not measured by steals but rather stops. Steals are great, but that shouldn't be your primary way to stop your opponent, and right now it seems to be the only way JJJ knows how.

They may not have been the most acclaimed players, but what I wouldn't give for this team to have a Maurice Acker and Dwight Burke on the roster. Smart players that just did their job. We don't have enough of that.

Thanks for this insight . When you go for the big plays and miss your out of position frequently. I do like it when he makes the steals though.

[MU82]

I've said all along that the problem isn't the talent, but the mix of talent. We have no center and one power forward who has shown he cannot play the position on defense. Steve played 17 minutes last game because of his refusal to play defense which means that Juan was our only center/PF for the majority of the game. No coach is going to win with that. Even against Omaha.

On the perimeter, we have skinny guys who don't have solid defensive fundamentals. Their quickness will create turnovers, but they were either never taught by the previous coach how to play 'D' or they don't want to do it. Our previous coach spent the majority of his time teaching these guys how to play defense and we see the results.

I will judge Wojo when he is coaching guys that he recruited. Then, if we end up with a mix like this - which I don't think we will - it will be on him. Right now the makeup of the team is 100% on the hillbilly.

With Otule, Davante, and Jamil waiting in the middle, guards had to think twice about going into the lane. There is no fear when the big man is only 6'6".

Superior analysis.

It's kind of like a small orchestra. You can't have 8 tubas, one string instrument and no percussion. Even if all 8 of  the tuba players were prodigies as teenagers, it still makes for a piss-poor sound without the proper instruments complementing them.

We have zero interior defenders, few if any natural rebounders and a bunch of perimeter defenders who are trying to learn on the fly. So yeah, if it makes you feel better, check off the names of all those top-100 high school players and pretend they should make a great team. And then get real.

Watching this game, it's little surprise that Wojo is willing to live with Derrick's offensive shortcomings. At least when Derrick is on the court, we have one solid, positional perimeter defender. I didn't say great or elite, I said solid. And I give Wojo credit for getting Derrick the hell out of the game when we needed to make free throws.

This just in: It is going to be a rough season. Yes, college hoops is a guard's game, but when none of your guards is elite and you have no interior defense or rebounding, it does no good to have 7 of your 9 guys as guards even if once upon a time some of them were in somebody's top 100.

[mattyv1908]

Going 6'6", 6'4" and 6'4" across the front line means guys are going to shoot layups all game. Playing physical doesn't make you taller.

I think this team has more size (or at least the same) as Burke, Lazar, Acker, Cubillan and a very raw Butler and didn't give up the amount of layups all season as this team has through four games.

[CTWarrior]

I think this team has more size (or at least the same) as Burke, Lazar, Acker, Cubillan and a very raw Butler and didn't give up the amount of layups all season as this team has through four games.

The other big thing is that the whole team has to hit the boards.  Anderson and Taylor are getting their share of rebounds, but no help from elsewhere.  And despite our quickness, our guards can't keep the guards from the likes of Omaha and NJIT in front of them.  I think this season has to be all about improvement, and not too much about wins and losses. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Maybe we need some twerkers, aina?

TTST, I'm really a badger fan

[KenoshaWarrior]

Rural American Know How

nice

my 75 year old neighbor told me he would sell GRIT as a little kid in rural pennsylvania

[brewcity77]

I think this team has more size (or at least the same) as Burke, Lazar, Acker, Cubillan and a very raw Butler and didn't give up the amount of layups all season as this team has through four games.

That team was probably Buzz's most impressive coaching performance. Not just because of what he got out of them, but because of how he did it. First of all, Lazar was a stud. Kid finished second at MU in all-time scoring and was drafted in the first round. We don't have anyone near the level he was at as a senior on this team. Also a tenacious defender and without a doubt stronger than anyone we have now.

And we had Jimmy, who even then was ridiculously underrated, as he has been every year of his career from his start at Marquette through the Bulls not offering him a bigger deal last month. That year, Jimmy was amazingly efficient on offense. He was the #7 player in offensive rating as a junior in the country. He was more efficient than either Wade in 2003 or Lazar in 2012. That's how good he was on offense that year.

The rest of the roster was filled with players that complimented those guys. Honestly, player for player, here's who I would take, based on who's out there right now:
.

• C - Lazar Hayward over Steve Taylor: No-brainer
  
• PF - Jimmy Butler over Juan Anderson: I love Juan, but this is JFB we're talking about.
  
• G - Darius Johnson-Odom over Jajuan Johnson: Fill in any other guy for Jajuan, but he's getting the most minutes of any wing. Again, a no-brainer.
  
• G - Maurice Acker over Matt Carlino: The first one where you might consider the current guy, but Acker was better at picking his shots and I'll take his quickness on defense. Also not sure the rest of the guys listed above would be as effective with Carlino in Acker's spot. Oh...and 49.5% from three.
  
• G - David Cubillan over Derrick Wilson: Another where the current guy gets consideration because of defense, but Cooby played plenty hard enough and was so much better on offense. He was one of those guys that made the people around him better.
  
• Bench - DuWil, Burton, & Cohen over Buycks, Fulce, & EWill: Both teams had very short benches, but this is one case where I'll take the current guys. Duane was more of a spark plug offensively than Dwight. I'd take Fulce's defense over Burton's, but injuries had already rendered Joe a shadow of what he might have become had he stayed healthy. And clearly, Cohen has already scored more points in 4 games than Williams did his entire freshman campaign.

.
As nice as it is to try to compare this team to that one, the 2010 team had four future NBA players on it and coming in, everyone knew their role and played to it. Further, Buzz knew the combination of a short bench and a lot of guys adjusting to new roles needed a slow-down style. We played our slowest ball under Buzz that year. Watching last night, I think Wojo is figuring that out. Only 61 possessions last night, and it suited us far better.

One good thing is we likely won't see another team this year that wants to play as fast as UNO does. There are only 3 Big East teams in the top-100 in tempo, none higher than Seton Hall at #72 (69.7). UNO is #1 in the country in that regard (78.8) and believe it or not the game they played against us was the SLOWEST they have played all year. No one in Orlando is ranked in the top-100 in tempo. None of our buy games are against teams that play up-tempo. And by the time we get to Big East season, hopefully these guys will be a bit better versed in transition defense.

[Blackhat]

My thinking is, if it's one or two guys underperforming it may be an individual problem.   If it's more than that it's probably a coaching problem. 

Wojo needs to adapt.

[tower912]

09-10 was Buzz's best coaching job.  It had guys who competed defensively and understood their assignments.   Knew how to pressure the ball and keep it out of paint and knew to not foul when it got to the paint.   Ultimately their undoing, but what are you gonna do?    Offensively, that team set the standard for ball movement.   As good as any I have ever seen at the college level.   Everyone a shooter, everyone unselfish.   Always about the next pass for an even more wide open shot.   This year's team likes the weave and the handoff and the one-on-one.   The flow and movement aren't nearly as good.   And Derrick can't shoot like Mo.   A little like Larry and Curly's brother, Moe, but not like Mo Acker.     

Finally, because Buzz had coached so many places for so many coaches with so many different styles, that he was able to adapt to that team and get them to buy in to that system.   Wojo only knows the Duke way.   He is very smart, but he has spent 20 years doing things one way.   Buzz had spent 15 years doing things 8 ways.     Much more able to adapt. 

[real chili 83]

I'm hungry for a sub.

Cousin's Italian Special.  No tomato.

[Benny B]

My Connecticut mother did this boy a great disservice by calling subs grinders the whole time I was growing up. People in WI look at you like you have two heads when use that one around here.

That's funny. First time I ever heard of a "grinder" was when I was in Fond du Lac.

[NotAnAlum]

Finally, because Buzz had coached so many places for so many coaches with so many different styles, that he was able to adapt to that team and get them to buy in to that system.   Wojo only knows the Duke way.   He is very smart, but he has spent 20 years doing things one way.   Buzz had spent 15 years doing things 8 ways.     Much more able to adapt. 

Couldn't agree more with the whole analysis but especially this.  The knock against Duke guys coaching has been they have problems adapting to lesser talent, weakness etc.  I was also a little concerned when the coaching staff was filled out with a bunch of x-players.  Great for games in the gym but no one who has been a lead assistant at "No name State" and tired to maximize what he had to be competitive with teams that were better.  Hopefully Wojo's staff will make these players better fundamentally and yes that takes time.  I don't remember Kevin O'Neill's first team looking this bad.  All we can do is hope.

[brandx]

   

Finally, because Buzz had coached so many places for so many coaches with so many different styles, that he was able to adapt to that team and get them to buy in to that system.   Wojo only knows the Duke way.   He is very smart, but he has spent 20 years doing things one way.   Buzz had spent 15 years doing things 8 ways.     Much more able to adapt. 

Don't know that I believe this. I don't think being "very smart" is going to help his team win many games this year. Certainly didn't help last year.

Being smart doesn't trump having no center and a marginal PF. Being smart doesn't trump an almost total lack of experience.

Wojo didn't coach with blinders on for 15 years. He wasn't selected to help coach NBA stars because his vision of coaching was very narrow.

Let him get his players and then we can judge how good of a coach he is. Smart Buzz barely finished over .500 with a much, much, better and much more experienced team last year.

[willie warrior]

That's funny. First time I ever heard of a "grinder" was when I was in Fond du Lac.

Ah yes, grinders in Fond du Lac. Brats in Sheboygan. Raw beef sandwiches at every bar in Wisconsin on New Years Eve, Garlic beef sausage from Kewaskum Meat Market, and Kielbasa from Usingers. A veritable smorgasbord of good eating back in the day in Wisconsin.

[tower912]

Don't know that I believe this. I don't think being "very smart" is going to help his team win many games this year. Certainly didn't help last year.

Being smart doesn't trump having no center and a marginal PF. Being smart doesn't trump an almost total lack of experience.

Wojo didn't coach with blinders on for 15 years. He wasn't selected to help coach NBA stars because his vision of coaching was very narrow.

Let him get his players and then we can judge how good of a coach he is. Smart Buzz barely finished over .500 with a much, much, better and much more experienced team last year.

I believe Wojo is very smart and will figure it out.   I can see where that wasn't clear. 

[Benny B]

I believe Wojo is very smart and will figure it out.   I can see where that wasn't clear. 

Of course he's smart. He went to Duke... some locals have told me they refer to themselves as the UW of the Southeast.

[The Lens]

How's everyone feel about Cousins Subs?

[MU82]

How's everyone feel about Cousins Subs?

Meh.

[Galway Eagle]

How's everyone feel about Cousins Subs?

Decent. I mean id take em over subway. Nothing beats a potbellys sub though as far as chains go.

[brewcity77]

How's everyone feel about Cousins Subs?

Good for a chain. Better than Subway or Jimmy John's, much better than Quizno's, not as good as Erbert's & Gerbert's.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

How's everyone feel about Cousins Subs?

I thought they were the best back in the late 70s. Now not so much.

[source?]

How's everyone feel about Cousins Subs?

Great specials, mediocre regular menu. Few things beat a brat sub.

[GGGG]

Good for a chain. Better than Subway or Jimmy John's, much better than Quizno's, not as good as Erbert's & Gerbert's.

Jimmy Johns = better for cold subs
Counsins = better for hot subs.

[brewcity77]

Jimmy Johns = better for cold subs
Counsins = better for hot subs.

I would have agreed a few years ago, but recently Jimmy John's hasn't been quite as good as they used to be. Not sure if they made changes or started using cheaper products as the chain grew, but they've been a bit of a let-down for maybe 2-3 years now.

[Benny B]

I would have agreed a few years ago, but recently Jimmy John's hasn't been quite as good as they used to be. Not sure if they made changes or started using cheaper products as the chain grew, but they've been a bit of a let-down for maybe 2-3 years now.

Like the other sandwich chains, I think it's thinner slices (i.e. less) meat.