Grinders

[The Lens]

There are 6 RSCI Top 100 guys on this team and that will jump to 7 when Luke Fisher can play.  That doesn't count Carlino who was recruited by Indiana and UCLA.

To keep saying the cupboard is bare not accurate.  Maybe the stuff in the cupboard was over-priced but there's stuff in the cupboard.  What apparently is not in the cupboard is enough grinders.  Enough guys who will get back on defense, who will kill for a rebound or dive out of bounds.

We saw Lazar and the midgets make a tourney run, it has been done small here before but our undersized teams fought for it. 

Everyone keeps saying help is on the way...well to me it looks like a lot of what we have.  On paper we have great talent.  Aside from Henry who is a game changer, we're just adding more Top 100's.  Hopefully those guys and these guys will find that grinder mind-set that has come to define MU over the past decade plus.

[jficke13]

This reminds me of Deadspin's regular mockery of sportwriters' obsession with GRIT.

[The Lens]

This reminds me of Deadspin's regular mockery of sportwriters' obsession with GRIT.

Yeah, I agree it can be cliche but something is missing and it's not Top 100 players.  Maybe it's just experience...

Or maybe it's some gritty, gutsy, lunch pail, blue collar workers who ride in vans and order meals by combo number.

[brewcity77]

I can't help but wonder if some of these top-100 kids were overrated coming out. Might they have looked more dominant simply because they didn't have to fight for time, or they played against a lower level of competition than they could have, or they simply coasted on their athleticism?

RSCI rankings show you what journalists think. We have a team that looks great on paper, but so far they haven't shown they can translate that to the court. We have athletes in uniforms, but few of them have actually proven they are basketball players.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Or maybe it's some gritty, gutsy, lunch pail, blue collar workers who ride in vans and order meals by combo number.

You lead the league in cliches per sentence.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Here's a few other clichés: chemistry, gelling, greater than the sum of their parts.  New coach with a new system and leadership expectations from a transfer point guard.  It's going to take a little time.  I'll take a worse-than-expected OOC record if it provides learning opportunities that create a better-than-expected conference record.  Because for all this overused discussion of intangibles, one thing you can measure is progress

[mu03eng]

Somewhere ZFB is really disappointed at the content of this thread given the misleading title.

[mu-rara]

Progress comes over a season.  You don't flip a switch.

[Ellisium]

There are 6 RSCI Top 100 guys on this team and that will jump to 7 when Luke Fisher can play.  That doesn't count Carlino who was recruited by Indiana and UCLA.

To keep saying the cupboard is bare not accurate.  Maybe the stuff in the cupboard was over-priced but there's stuff in the cupboard.  What apparently is not in the cupboard is enough grinders.  Enough guys who will get back on defense, who will kill for a rebound or dive out of bounds.

We saw Lazar and the midgets make a tourney run, it has been done small here before but our undersized teams fought for it. 

Everyone keeps saying help is on the way...well to me it looks like a lot of what we have.  On paper we have great talent.  Aside from Henry who is a game changer, we're just adding more Top 100's.  Hopefully those guys and these guys will find that grinder mind-set that has come to define MU over the past decade plus.

Thank you Lens.  You are definitely correct.  

As far as grinders go .... that remains to be seen.  I can tell you this, though - After reading the scouting reports on Wojo's recruiting class they all have two things in common:

1. Hi IQ
2. Pass the ball well

I can say that this team does move the ball well so it seems based on recruiting and what we see now is that there's one identifiable trait of what type of team Wojo wants to field.   The IQ portion doesn't translate well with this team at all.  The lack of defensive attributes does worry me, though.  Offensively, Wojo is recruiting a well balanced offense.

Brief Scouting Reports
1. Noskowiak - PG that passes very well and controls tempo.  
2. Haniff Cheatem - SG that can slash to the hoop, pass, and handle the ball.  Great hands
3. Ellenson - PF   Pick and pop shooter than can hit 2 with elite accuracy or score 3 pointer.  Very Strong
4. Heldt - Center  Plays with back to the basket and can score from either block.  Also can hit the 3 pointer.  Good Hands

After reading these, it seems Wojo is creating his team in a high powered offensive mold.  If these guys pan out and produce as their scouting report says .... they will essentially have an offense that can score from the following:

Passing Penetration
Dribble Penetration
Beyond the 3 pt line from multiple bigs
Jump shots
Post Up

MU, in the future, will be able to spread teams out as their bigs can shoot from deep.  This will open up dribble penetration for the guards.     I find this quite interesting as Wojo preached defense first when he arrived, yet he seems to be building an offensive juggernaut.  

[GGGG]

I can't help but wonder if some of these top-100 kids were overrated coming out. Might they have looked more dominant simply because they didn't have to fight for time, or they played against a lower level of competition than they could have, or they simply coasted on their athleticism?

RSCI rankings show you what journalists think. We have a team that looks great on paper, but so far they haven't shown they can translate that to the court. We have athletes in uniforms, but few of them have actually proven they are basketball players.

Brew, you missed it when you were on hiatus, but I had a post about Vander Blue and if he was overrated or not.  He really wasn't if you look at those around him on RSCI and how they turned out.  It just turned out that our expectations were probably too high.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44538.msg642356#msg642356

This might also turn out to be the case regarding JJJ and Deonte when all is said and done.

[JakeBarnes]

In basketball, we call them traditionals bringing "grit."

During the days of my Cubs blogging, we referred to players such as Theriot and Reed Johnson as contributing to the "scrappy white player index" of winning.

Tomato, tomato (that really loses something on the internet). Either way what the team needs is unit cohesion, not some Hawk Harrelson-blubbered intangible concept served as a statistically significant measurement.

[keefe]

This reminds me of Deadspin's regular mockery of sportwriters' obsession with GRIT.

Rural American Know How

[brewcity77]

Brew, you missed it when you were on hiatus, but I had a post about Vander Blue and if he was overrated or not.  He really wasn't if you look at those around him on RSCI and how they turned out.  It just turned out that our expectations were probably too high.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44538.msg642356#msg642356

This might also turn out to be the case regarding JJJ and Deonte when all is said and done.

Excellent post, and looks dead on correct. The expectation seems to be that Jajuan Johnson would become Dion Waiters, Deonte Burton would become dominant, and everything I've heard based on his play at the D4 level is that Duane Wilson will be the best point guard at Marquette since at least Diener. I'll admit, at least when it comes to Burton, I've fed into that myself. But so far, Jajuan is streaky on offense and a liability on defense, Burton is a black hole that can provide some highlight reel moments but doesn't put enough effort in, and Duane...well, three games in it's tough to really fairly evaluate, so we'll just say the jury is out.

Before that, Juan and Steve have clearly never been stars while Fischer and Sandy have shown flashes in the small sample size but aren't close to being established starters, much less stars. And that's the 7 RSCI top-100 guys Wojo inherited. If you include Carlino, well, he can score a bit, has good court vision, but is a terrible defender.

All that's left is Derrick and Dawson. One can play at this level, though at an average rate, the other has had one good game and otherwise been a void in his career. So what did Wojo inherit? I'd say not a whole lot. The question is if he can turn these guys into a team, because they sure as hell don't look like one now.

[willie warrior]

Grinders are real good when made with Italian Beef on Jewish rye bread.

Grits are not good. At. All.

[jficke13]

In basketball, we call them traditionals bringing "grit."

During the days of my Cubs blogging, we referred to players such as Theriot and Reed Johnson as contributing to the "scrappy white player index" of winning.

Tomato, tomato (that really loses something on the internet). Either way what the team needs is unit cohesion, not some Hawk Harrelson-blubbered intangible concept served as a statistically significant measurement.

Yeah they mercilessly rip overvaluing "scrappy" or "gritty" players (See everything they wrote about the D-Backs last year)  over valuing quantifiable performance metrics.

[Texas Western]

Excellent post, and looks dead on correct. The expectation seems to be that Jajuan Johnson would become Dion Waiters, Deonte Burton would become dominant, and everything I've heard based on his play at the D4 level is that Duane Wilson will be the best point guard at Marquette since at least Diener. I'll admit, at least when it comes to Burton, I've fed into that myself. But so far, Jajuan is streaky on offense and a liability on defense, Burton is a black hole that can provide some highlight reel moments but doesn't put enough effort in, and Duane...well, three games in it's tough to really fairly evaluate, so we'll just say the jury is out.

Before that, Juan and Steve have clearly never been stars while Fischer and Sandy have shown flashes in the small sample size but aren't close to being established starters, much less stars. And that's the 7 RSCI top-100 guys Wojo inherited. If you include Carlino, well, he can score a bit, has good court vision, but is a terrible defender.

All that's left is Derrick and Dawson. One can play at this level, though at an average rate, the other has had one good game and otherwise been a void in his career. So what did Wojo inherit? I'd say not a whole lot. The question is if he can turn these guys into a team, because they sure as hell don't look like one now.

I thought JJJ showed excellent defense in the Tennessee Martin game, so we know he has the ability. It is up to the coaches to get that out of him every game.

[brewcity77]

I thought JJJ showed excellent defense in the Tennessee Martin game, so we know he has the ability. It is up to the coaches to get that out of him every game.

JJJ's defense in that game was reminiscent of Jerel. Did a good job of jumping lanes, getting steals, but I'm not sure it was actually good defense. When you try to jump lanes and miss, you just end up out of position. That hurt Jerel from time to time, but on a team where you don't have other solid defenders like James and Matthews along side you and guys that will stick to their assignments down low like Burke and Hayward, those mistakes will be amplified. Sadly, good defense is not measured by steals but rather stops. Steals are great, but that shouldn't be your primary way to stop your opponent, and right now it seems to be the only way JJJ knows how.

They may not have been the most acclaimed players, but what I wouldn't give for this team to have a Maurice Acker and Dwight Burke on the roster. Smart players that just did their job. We don't have enough of that.

[MerrittsMustache]

In basketball, we call them traditionals bringing "grit."

During the days of my Cubs blogging, we referred to players such as Theriot and Reed Johnson as contributing to the "scrappy white player index" of winning.

Tomato, tomato (that really loses something on the internet). Either way what the team needs is unit cohesion, not some Hawk Harrelson-blubbered intangible concept served as a statistically significant measurement.

I tell ya, Stoney, what this Marquette team needs is T-dubya-T-dubya.

[4everwarriors]

Maybe we need some twerkers, aina?

[mattyv1908]

Say what you want, but the guys that bought into what Buzz was doing played hard.  Getting out efforted was a rare event in the Williams era.  Even last year's team played hard.

On the contrary, Duke basketball may be a lot of things, but I don't think using the word 'physical' would ever be near the top of potential descriptive words for their play.

This team needs some edge in my opinion.

[MerrittsMustache]

Say what you want, but the guys that bought into what Buzz was doing played hard.  Getting out efforted was a rare event in the Williams era.  Even last year's team played hard.

On the contrary, Duke basketball may be a lot of things, but I don't think using the word 'physical' would ever be near the top of potential descriptive words for their play.

This team needs some edge in my opinion.

Playing hard and playing physical aren't the same thing.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I tell ya, Stoney, what this Marquette team needs is T-dubya-T-dubya.

The TWTW is how you get a 10,000 SF home in Scottsdale, Stone Poney. Ya' gotta cinch it up and hunker down, dadgum it.  The bad guys are really in the cat-bird seat, let me tell you what.  Mercy!

[MU82]

I saw the post title and harkened back to the sub sammiches of my youth. We'd go down to the deli by the beach and get a roast beef grinder or a meatball grinder.

We do have a lotta skinny players. Maybe they could use a few of those grinders!

Look, the whole sum-of-the-parts thing is a cliche, but it also is true in an ultimate team game like basketball. We probably don't have enough guys to do the dirty work. We certainly don't have enough size. It simply might not be the right combination of talents this season -- just as it obviously wasn't last season.

[hairy worthen]

Maybe we need some twerkers, aina?

[brandx]

There are 6 RSCI Top 100 guys on this team and that will jump to 7 when Luke Fisher can play.  That doesn't count Carlino who was recruited by Indiana and UCLA.

To keep saying the cupboard is bare not accurate.  Maybe the stuff in the cupboard was over-priced but there's stuff in the cupboard.  What apparently is not in the cupboard is enough grinders.  Enough guys who will get back on defense, who will kill for a rebound or dive out of bounds.

We saw Lazar and the midgets make a tourney run, it has been done small here before but our undersized teams fought for it. 

Everyone keeps saying help is on the way...well to me it looks like a lot of what we have.  On paper we have great talent.  Aside from Henry who is a game changer, we're just adding more Top 100's.  Hopefully those guys and these guys will find that grinder mind-set that has come to define MU over the past decade plus.

I've said all along that the problem isn't the talent, but the mix of talent. We have no center and one power forward who has shown he cannot play the position on defense. Steve played 17 minutes last game because of his refusal to play defense which means that Juan was our only center/PF for the majority of the game. No coach is going to win with that. Even against Omaha.

On the perimeter, we have skinny guys who don't have solid defensive fundamentals. Their quickness will create turnovers, but they were either never taught by the previous coach how to play 'D' or they don't want to do it. Our previous coach spent the majority of his time teaching these guys how to play defense and we see the results.

I will judge Wojo when he is coaching guys that he recruited. Then, if we end up with a mix like this - which I don't think we will - it will be on him. Right now the makeup of the team is 100% on the hillbilly.

With Otule, Davante, and Jamil waiting in the middle, guards had to think twice about going into the lane. There is no fear when the big man is only 6'6".