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Author Topic: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?  (Read 113120 times)

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #350 on: December 22, 2014, 11:00:30 AM »
New Moral of Story: "What goes around, comes around."  If you're not willing to deal with the fallout of your own actions/words, keep your mouth shut.  (This is equally applicable to McAdams.)


I'm not sure that's how we want to treat TA's at MU. (or anyplace for that matter).


Benny B

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #351 on: December 22, 2014, 11:19:01 AM »
I'm not sure that's how we want to treat TA's at MU. (or anyplace for that matter).

"What goes around, comes around" is a Hindu/Buddhist expression which alludes to a person's actions deciding their future fate (karma).  Retaliation has nothing to do with it.

Just like the golden rule says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," not "do unto others as they do unto you."
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #352 on: December 22, 2014, 11:22:55 AM »
Wrong.

Per the link Piper posted and that I commented had good points, McAdams lied about the basic facts of the incident, and then perpetuated those lies in the local and national media. McAdams was NOT within his rights to do that.


Lied is an overt act, mis-stated is perhaps more accurate.  Additionally, nothing McAdams did directly caused the TA to leave.  She is leaving because ignorant savages sent her death threats and otherwise made her uncomfortable.  Unless McAdams is one of those folks his only fault is poor judgement and poor reporting.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #353 on: December 22, 2014, 11:29:13 AM »
"What goes around, comes around" is a Hindu/Buddhist expression which alludes to a person's actions deciding their future fate (karma).  Retaliation has nothing to do with it.

Just like the golden rule says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," not "do unto others as they do unto you."

I understand, but TA's are literally learning on the job. Do we really want to hold them publicly accountable for every single thing they might say?

McAdams is just an a-hole. That's not because of his political views, it's because he took a private conversation and made it public simply to further his own agenda.

If he was concerned about the Phil department, take it up with the Phil department.

Benny B

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #354 on: December 22, 2014, 11:47:28 AM »
I understand, but TA's are literally learning on the job. Do we really want to hold them publicly accountable for every single thing they might say?

So how many free passes are you proposing TAs receive?  And if they don't use them before graduation, do they get to keep them or do they have to turn them in to get their PhD?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #355 on: December 22, 2014, 11:52:36 AM »
So how many free passes are you proposing TAs receive?  And if they don't use them before graduation, do they get to keep them or do they have to turn them in to get their PhD?

People can/should be held accountable for what they do and say.

However, accountability doesn't need to be a public spectacle, especially with TAs and students in an academic setting having a private conversation.




brandx

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #356 on: December 22, 2014, 12:03:10 PM »
Lied is an overt act, mis-stated is perhaps more accurate.  Additionally, nothing McAdams did directly caused the TA to leave.  She is leaving because ignorant savages sent her death threats and otherwise made her uncomfortable.  Unless McAdams is one of those folks his only fault is poor judgement and poor reporting.

Untrue. There is a well established history of the treatment people get when they are outed in these blogs which leads to further lies and insults on Fox News. Death threats are a very common occurrence. McAdams lives in this world and knows this.

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #357 on: December 22, 2014, 12:06:19 PM »
Untrue. There is a well established history of the treatment people get when they are outed in these blogs which leads to further lies and insults on Fox News. Death threats are a very common occurrence. McAdams lives in this world and knows this.

Source?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #358 on: December 22, 2014, 12:08:13 PM »
Untrue. There is a well established history of the treatment people get when they are outed in these blogs which leads to further lies and insults on Fox News. Death threats are a very common occurrence. McAdams lives in this world and knows this.

And so because other people are complete idiots, McAdams is responsible?  Wouldn't that make Fox News more responsible?  Watch out for that slope....I reported something, somebody else saw it and went and killed someone(s), I should be responsible for reporting it in the first place.  A chilling effect on journalism, yes?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

brandx

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #359 on: December 22, 2014, 12:35:06 PM »
And so because other people are complete idiots, McAdams is responsible?  Wouldn't that make Fox News more responsible?  Watch out for that slope....I reported something, somebody else saw it and went and killed someone(s), I should be responsible for reporting it in the first place.  A chilling effect on journalism, yes?

I would contend that holding up a TA's conduct in the classroom to national ridicule is not "Journalism". And lying about that conduct is also not "Journalism". And, blogging itself, is not "Journalism".


forgetful

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #360 on: December 22, 2014, 12:35:57 PM »
So how many free passes are you proposing TAs receive?  And if they don't use them before graduation, do they get to keep them or do they have to turn them in to get their PhD?

A free pass would imply the TA did something wrong.  If you read that link, it clearly summarizes how in fact, if you look at an accurate reporting of what occurred (and not McAdams misreports), the TA did everything correctly.

jficke13

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #361 on: December 22, 2014, 12:36:36 PM »
I would contend that [...] blogging itself, is not "Journalism".


By what standards do we determine what is and is not "journalism?"

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #362 on: December 22, 2014, 12:42:40 PM »
I would contend that holding up a TA's conduct in the classroom to national ridicule is not "Journalism". And lying about that conduct is also not "Journalism". And, blogging itself, is not "Journalism".



I'll grant you it's a liberal use of the word journalism, but what would we call it otherwise?

And just because McAdams put it on the internet doesn't make it fodder for national ridicule.  It happened to become a story that Fox News then reported on, but that hardly makes it national ridicule.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

g0lden3agle

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #363 on: December 22, 2014, 12:46:01 PM »
And, blogging itself, is not "Journalism".

I've found myself thinking about this very topic recently.  I can't stand when Gawker and it's associated sites will sprinkle in opinion pieces among their other reporting.  It's very dangerous to have your site set up in such a way that there's no real way to separate the fair and balanced from their editorials.

Coleman

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #364 on: December 22, 2014, 02:11:31 PM »
Lied is an overt act, mis-stated is perhaps more accurate.  Additionally, nothing McAdams did directly caused the TA to leave.  She is leaving because ignorant savages sent her death threats and otherwise made her uncomfortable.  Unless McAdams is one of those folks his only fault is poor judgement and poor reporting.

You can polish the turd that is McAdams' unprofessional conduct all you want, but its still a turd.

I don't care if McAdams didn't personally send the heinous email messages to her. He named her on his blog, with inaccurate information, then went on national media to cry martyr knowing full well what the repercussions would be. It is a disgrace.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 02:18:30 PM by Bleuteaux »

Benny B

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #365 on: December 22, 2014, 02:30:14 PM »
People can/should be held accountable for what they do and say.

However, accountability doesn't need to be a public spectacle, especially with TAs and students in an academic setting having a private conversation.

I agree, but the media, the general public, the internet, the blogosphere, etc. are all very fickle... it's damn near impossible to know what will and won't go viral in today's day and age - there are marketing/promotion/advertising firms who have seven-figure retainers that have yet to decipher that code.  In other words, accountability isn't always going to be (and doesn't need to be) a public spectacle, but it could.

Again, if you don't want to be accountable, don't do anything for which you might be held accountable, fairly or unfairly.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Benny B

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #366 on: December 22, 2014, 02:43:07 PM »
Now this is just dumb.  Yes, I believe in the First Amendment and the right to peaceably assemble & protest, but if a tree falls in the woods, does anyone care?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/demonstrators-take-both-sides-of-john-mcadams-controversy-at-marquette-b99413516z1-286591391.html
Quote
A national conservative student organization at Marquette University staged a small protest Monday against the university's decision to ban a professor from campus after he publicly criticized a teaching assistant's decision not to allow discussion of gay marriage in an ethics class.

At the same time, a handful of graduate students held signs a block away at W. Wisconsin Ave. and N. 13th St., saying they supported the actions of graduate student instructor Cheryl Abbate.

The demonstrations, which attracted little attention while the university is on Christmas break, come after Associate Professor John McAdams was placed under review while the university investigates his conduct, according to a post he wrote last week.

It seems as though a lot of "protesters" these days aren't even passionate (dare I say apathetic) about the issues as they let on... they merely desire for a "battle wound" to post on their Facebook page.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #367 on: December 22, 2014, 02:49:40 PM »
I agree, but the media, the general public, the internet, the blogosphere, etc. are all very fickle... it's damn near impossible to know what will and won't go viral in today's day and age - there are marketing/promotion/advertising firms who have seven-figure retainers that have yet to decipher that code.  In other words, accountability isn't always going to be (and doesn't need to be) a public spectacle, but it could.

Again, if you don't want to be accountable, don't do anything for which you might be held accountable, fairly or unfairly.


But where do we draw the line?

Do we even need Miranda rights anymore? ANYTHING/EVERYTHING I ever do and say can be put on the internet and used against me? Do I have any reasonable right to privacy? Especially in an academic environment!

As far as not knowing what will turn viral, even if it didn't turn viral, I don't think it's appropriate for a teacher to call out another teacher on the internet. I didn't think it was appropriate from day 1.

If McAdams wants to be an agent of change, then engage the people he wants to change. Don't run to a keyboard and then act surprised when it doesn't go well.

muwarrior69

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #368 on: December 22, 2014, 02:51:37 PM »
Now this is just dumb.  Yes, I believe in the First Amendment and the right to peaceably assemble & protest, but if a tree falls in the woods, does anyone care?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/demonstrators-take-both-sides-of-john-mcadams-controversy-at-marquette-b99413516z1-286591391.html
It seems as though a lot of "protesters" these days aren't even passionate (dare I say apathetic) about the issues as they let on... they merely desire for a "battle wound" to post on their Facebook page.

The first 2 comments were right on!

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #369 on: December 22, 2014, 03:09:59 PM »
You can polish the turd that is McAdams' unprofessional conduct all you want, but its still a turd.

I don't care if McAdams didn't personally send the heinous email messages to her. He named her on his blog, with inaccurate information, then went on national media to cry martyr knowing full well what the repercussions would be. It is a disgrace.

How do we know it's inaccurate.  You have McAdams/student version of events and the TA's version of events via an anonymous blog post(at least McAdams put his name on it).  I'm willing to be neither version is 100% correct and until there is collaborating info from eye witnesses I'll stay on that position.

What McAdams did is unprofessional at a minimum, but ultimately you can't hold him responsible for the actions of others any more than you can blame Al Sharpton for what happened in NYC this past weekend.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

jficke13

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #370 on: December 22, 2014, 03:17:57 PM »
But where do we draw the line?

Do we even need Miranda rights anymore? ANYTHING/EVERYTHING I ever do and say can be put on the internet and used against me? Do I have any reasonable right to privacy? Especially in an academic environment!


Judge Kozinski has been saying that we have voluntarily abandoned any right to privacy because our conduct is affirmatively allowing the recording and sharing of data/information about our lives to an extent that nothing is left that we could have a reasonable expectation of remaining private

Coleman

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #371 on: December 22, 2014, 03:31:54 PM »

What McAdams did is unprofessional at a minimum, but ultimately you can't hold him responsible for the actions of others any more than you can blame Al Sharpton for what happened in NYC this past weekend.

I'm not. I'm merely holding him responsible for his own actions. Which were bad enough.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 03:36:11 PM by Bleuteaux »

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #372 on: December 22, 2014, 04:00:29 PM »
I'm not. I'm merely holding him responsible for his own actions. Which were bad enough.



Not trying to be obtuse, but what actions are you holding him accountable for and what do you think the punishment for those actions should be?

Admittedly I'm a little out of my depth, academia is not my forte and not some place I want to spend any more time than necessary  ;D
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

GGGG

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #373 on: December 22, 2014, 04:06:35 PM »
Not trying to be obtuse, but what actions are you holding him accountable for and what do you think the punishment for those actions should be?


He should be reprimanded for acting unprofessionally regarding the graduate assistant.  He should have to issue a public apology for how he acted, and apologize to her personally.  If he refuses to do so, I would fire him.

mu03eng

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #374 on: December 22, 2014, 04:07:55 PM »

He should be reprimanded for acting unprofessionally regarding the graduate assistant.  He should have to issue a public apology for how he acted, and apologize to her personally.  If he refuses to do so, I would fire him.

I'm fine with that.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

 

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