MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The problem is that the teacher's politics, religion, etc. can alter what he or she considers racist, offensive, homophobic, etc. I side with social liberals on gay marriage and most other "rights" issues but am still uncomfortable with the labels (homophobic, racist, offensive) they reflexively assign to any who take an opposing viewpoint.

You are correct, but at some point we have to trust our instructor's judgement.

That's not to say that every instructor is infallible, but the classroom can't be anarchy either.

[Galway Eagle]

If you don't mind me asking, when were you a student at MU, and what was your major?

I did not have the experience that it was very conservative and am wondering if it was a departmental or different time period thing.

09/10 to last year.  Started as political science and psych then moved over to advertising.  

[cj111]

The problem is that the teacher's politics, religion, etc. can alter what he or she considers racist, offensive, homophobic, etc. I side with social liberals on gay marriage and most other "rights" issues but am still uncomfortable with the labels (homophobic, racist, offensive) they reflexively assign to any who take an opposing viewpoint.

True, to an extent, though there are some things that are pretty clearly racist/sexist (derogatory terms for minorities and women) and some that are borderline.  Also, to be clear, when I speak of these terms, I'm not talking about how I react to them; I'm talking about their likely effect on the other students in the class, who have the same right to an education as the person speaking.  I tend to let the borderline ones go, as long as they are germane to the discussion and I trust other students will jump in to counter.  

But I do know from years of experience what kinds of things will shut down discussion or take it in a unproductive direction, and I'm not going down that road.

[Lennys Tap]

True, to an extent, though there are some things that are pretty clearly racist/sexist (derogatory terms for minorities and women) and some that are borderline.  Also, to be clear, when I speak of these terms, I'm not talking about how I react to them; I'm talking about their likely effect on the other students in the class, who have the same right to an education as the person speaking.  I tend to let the borderline ones go, as long as they are germane to the discussion and I trust other students will jump in to counter.  

But I do know from years of experience what kinds of things will shut down discussion or take it in a unproductive direction, and I'm not going down that road.

You impress me as a good teacher.

[Benny B]

Having taught for many years,  I will say that nothing incites the dudgeon of a student more than being told, "we're not talking about that now.  We're moving on to another topic."  But without the power to do that as a professor, every class would degenerate into a shapeless mass of expressed opinions where the mere fact of expressing an opinion becomes more important than careful analysis of claims and evidence.

My God, the irony here is so thick I think it's giving me emphysema.  

I went back and re-read the original blog post that started this whole thing, and I'm more convinced than ever that this is a bunch of people on all sides getting their backs up over nothing.

I think if McAdams didn't use the TA's name, this would have been nothing.  McAdam's shouldn't have identified her, but I don't think he's attacking her and he is using this scenario to attack a broader point (which may or may not be legitimate but is something worth discussion).  He spends almost as much time attacking the college leadership as he does conveying the events in the classroom itself.

Maybe I'm being insensitive but I think this is a series of minor errors that added up to an unnecessary black eye.  TA shouldn't have said what she said.  Student shouldn't have been so reactionary/gotcha.  McAdams shouldn't have used the TA's name and he used the blog to influence the leadership decision(IMHO).

I couldn't agree with this more.  I looked at the original blog post this morning for the first time (I know, I broke my own rule #1 above), and frankly, I don't see anything unprofessional about what he said.  Therefore, I don't see this as McAdams attacking a innocent student, I see it as exactly what Eng said in bold above.  Censuring McAdams because he's being critical of the system (not necessarily of a student or colleague) is not in academia's best interests, and on that point I think we all agree.

Where we disagree is:

A) Does the context of the blog entry in any way constitute harassment, humiliation or conduct unbecoming of a Marquette employee?
and
B) Should the TA's name have been used.

With respect to A, there's nothing directly humiliating, harassing, etc., but I think the issue is with the subsequent life the issue took on once others picked it up.  To put this on McAdams that he either knew or should have known that there would be this sort of fallout from the blog entry is a difficult case to make.  Things go viral for no reason whatsoever these days... I've seen YouTube videos that are way more clever, funny, unique, etc. that have less than a tenth of 1% of the page views than some of the crap that's gone viral out there does.  Not every one of McAdams blog entries has led to this type of fallout, and there was nothing inflaming that would have made it stand out.  Even if the media is known to make mountains out of molehills, that doesn't mean you automatically place the unintended fallout* on the back of the original source.

* Maybe that's 'C,' because no, I don't think McAdams intended for any of where this has led to happen.

On B, you've got two former TAs on the record here with differing opinions as to a TA's stature in higher education.  But let's not overlook one fact: the student, as a TA, is in a position of power and with power comes responsibility (damn you, Stan Lee).  Seriously though, the TA is a part-time employee of the University and she is a part-time student, but she is not entitled to the benefits (i.e. protections) of a student when she is acting as an employee just as she is not entitled to the benefits of an employee when she's acting as a student.  Therefore, I don't see anything wrong with McAdams naming her in his entry, just as I wouldn't see anything wrong with him naming any other professor, adjunct or administrator at Marquette or any other institution.

[Benny B]

Touche. I've been advocating for the closing of all but about 50 law schools nationwide (unfortunately MU would be one of them) for a while now. Nothing positive comes out of law schools.

As an MU law alum, you would honestly leave UW as the only law school in Wisconsin?!?  My God, we really do need to close MU's law school if you're the kind of lawyer we're turning out!!!

[forgetful]

Some on here are commenting that this is way overblown and in many respects I agree.  The initial instance should have went away, but there were several entities that escalated an incident that was not a big deal.

A TA, who is technically a student, when they are teaching a course, mishandled a confrontation with a student.  I can say with absolute certainty as someone who has mentored and instructed numerous TA's that this is not an uncommon occurrence.  It is part of the learning process on how to teach and handle a classroom as well as mentor undergraduates.  At that point there was no fault on any side.  

Fault 1 (and the primary place blame should be placed).

The undergraduate student who secretly recorded the conversation and then went to media.  This was uncalled for, inappropriate and that individual is not getting any blame in all this.  Does anyone know, if Wisconsin allows secret recording of individuals?  

Fault 2 (and the biggest component to this mess).

The media, for taking a non-story and blowing it up to promote an agenda.  This is a story that should have never hit the press.

Fault 3.

McAdams, pushing this story forward publicly referring to the TA.  I cannot emphasize enough, from the perspective of someone who supervises TA's how inappropriate his actions were.  This was a teaching opportunity, where he as a mentor can help a student move forward and learn from a mistake.  A common mistake that one expects from a TA.  That is why they first learn to teach in a structured setting, where established professors can guide/groom them for future success.

He disregarded these duties as a professor and rather pushed an agenda to humiliate the TA and in turn the University.  In the end these actions may destroy the career of the TA, a person he should be mentoring and guiding, not vilifying.  

This could have all been resolved if McAdams, would have mentored the student, guided her on how to handle such situations in a classroom and when confronted by the media simply commented that this is a non-story, where a TA (who he could emphasize regardless of the point is a great instructor) made a mistake and has learned from it...end of story.

I have mentored some very bad TA's over the years and for several of them groomed them into good teachers, never would I call them out in public, now there may have been colorful language used behind closed doors, but in public I always support them, whether I agree with their stance or not.

That is McAdams job first and foremost and he failed at it.

Fault 4.

MU.  They should have stayed out of the public.  Only comments being, we are looking into the actions of all parties involved as it relates to the student and professor code of conduct.  It should have ended in my opinion with an official letter placed on McAdams file.  I have seen a similar ugly display by a professor occur and that is exactly how the University handled it in that case.  


I also want to emphasize that in my opinion this has nothing to do with Gay rights.  Regardless of what event precipitated this outcome in should be treated in exactly the same manner every time.  This is a teacher/student/university issue or mentee/mentor/university issue.

[rocket surgeon]

i knew i was having trouble with the identification of the ta cheryl abbate as a "student" but  benny, you nailed it perfectly for me-thanks

[brandx]

i knew i was having trouble with the identification of the ta cheryl abbate as a "student" but  benny, you nailed it perfectly for me-thanks

Maybe a good comparison might be an intern? I've had plenty and while you expect them to do a good job, as an intern they are also there to learn. If they screw something up, you take them aside and talk to them about it - then it's over. You don't publicly berate them or call them out in front of the whole company.

[forgetful]

Maybe a good comparison might be an intern? I've had plenty and while you expect them to do a good job, as an intern they are also there to learn. If they screw something up, you take them aside and talk to them about it - then it's over. You don't publicly berate them or call them out in front of the whole company.

That is an apt comparison.  But I also want to add, that often the TA is receiving a grade for their teaching responsibilities (not always the case, as it depends on the University).  In that regard, they most definitely are a student and calling them out in public is akin to releasing their grades without their permission.

[rocket surgeon]

to answer your question forgetful- yes it is legal to record conversation without the consent of other party

http://wislawjournal.com/2010/06/21/commentary-laws-vary-on-whether-recording-is-allowed/

[forgetful]

to answer your question forgetful- yes it is legal to record conversation without the consent of other party

http://wislawjournal.com/2010/06/21/commentary-laws-vary-on-whether-recording-is-allowed/

Thank you.  I figured it was, or there would have been an entirely different lawsuit.  The state where I reside it is against the law to record someone without permission, but I know that isn't necessarily that common.

[jficke13]

As an MU law alum, you would honestly leave UW as the only law school in Wisconsin?!?  My God, we really do need to close MU's law school if you're the kind of lawyer we're turning out!!!

The state has twice as many new jds than jobs for them, so either we both need class sizes 50% of what they are presently, or one needs to go. Deathmatch between deans anyone?

[jficke13]

09/10 to last year.  Started as political science and psych then moved over to advertising.  

Hmm, I graduated in '09, public relations major w/ a polysci minor, and I honestly did not get anything resembling a overly conservative vibe from either polysci or the College of Comm. I'd agree with someone else who posted that MU is probably right of the typical university, but left of center.

Different viewpoints, different experiences though.

[Eldon]

As someone mentioned, "conservative" and "liberal" is relative to your own position.  If you are far left-leaning and you come across someone who is a moderate, it may sound to you like this person is a radical conservative.

And keep in mind that most people on the far ends of the spectrum usually aren't cognizant of their radical position, or at least don't want to admit it.  They believe they are "open-minded" or "fair and balanced," when, in fact, they are not.

I think aside from business schools and econ departments, most academics are unabashedly left of center.  However, in my experience only very few of them actively proselytize or openly mock the other side.  Many are educated and experienced enough to respect where the other side is coming from, at least on fiscal issues (I think most all academics are pretty socially liberal).

[Eldon]

Does anyone know if there is some sort of precedent for this case? 

I mean there had to have been some physics, biology or anthropology class somewhere in the country where a student tried to divert the class into discussing intelligent design and was shut down by the professor.  And the student goes to the media, claims the professor is suppressing free exchange of ideas, etc.

Or, from the other side, the professor actually lets the intelligent design discussion go on a bit and some other student complains that the teacher is promoting religion in class.

I know physics and philosophy are different in nature, but feel free to sub some other discipline.

[rocket surgeon]

this just in-school district doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong here...yet

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/12/19/school-islamic-vocabulary-lesson-part-common-core-standards/

[Galway Eagle]

Hmm, I graduated in '09, public relations major w/ a polysci minor, and I honestly did not get anything resembling a overly conservative vibe from either polysci or the College of Comm. I'd agree with someone else who posted that MU is probably right of the typical university, but left of center.

Different viewpoints, different experiences though.

I didn't so much mean the courses so much as the general campus environment.  I still remember walking through the massive pro life memorial they do ever year in the central mall and being really uncomfortable.  Not to mention a majority of the students I met being fairly conservative. Perhaps the Comm department wasn't vastly conservative but the work that was turned in was much more conservative than you'd see at say Beloit or Madison. 

I do agree though that it's relative to your own position and me being me I'd probably read it to be more conservative than others. 

[brandx]

this just in-school district doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong here...yet

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/12/19/school-islamic-vocabulary-lesson-part-common-core-standards/

Lighten up, McAdams - you just illustrated perfectly why we can't get along. You want to take a discussion about responsibilities of TAs and teachers and turn it into a soapbox for your muslim-hating views.

[rocket surgeon]

Lighten up, McAdams - you just illustrated perfectly why we can't get along. You want to take a discussion about responsibilities of TAs and teachers and turn it into a soapbox for your muslim-hating views.

come on brandi-i was just responding to eldon's question-not trying to divert anything.  mcadams?  nice touch, just don't call me francis

[brandx]

come on brandi-i was just responding to eldon's question-not trying to divert anything.  mcadams?  nice touch, just don't call me francis

Just givin' you a hard time, Shirley.

[rocket surgeon]

Just givin' you a hard time, Shirley.

cool

[brandx]

A graduate student teaching assistant is leaving Marquette University after being publicly targeted by a tenured professor for her response to a student who wanted to argue against gay marriage in her ethics class, according to a national blog for philosophy professionals.

Teaching assistant Cheryl Abbate will transfer next month to the philosophy PhD program at the University of Colorado, Boulder, after being accepted through an expedited admissions process, according to the Daily Nous blog for philosophy professionals maintained by Justin Weinberg, an associate professor of philosophy at the University of South Carolina.

Several sources independently confirmed that Abbate received "vile" emails and threats of physical harm after Marquette associate professor John McAdams accused her in a Nov. 9 post on his conservative-leaning Marquette Warrior blog of "using a tactic typical among liberals now" with the student.

[cj111]

My God, the irony here is so thick I think it's giving me emphysema.  

I couldn't agree with this more.  I looked at the original blog post this morning for the first time (I know, I broke my own rule #1 above), and frankly, I don't see anything unprofessional about what he said.  Therefore, I don't see this as McAdams attacking a innocent student, I see it as exactly what Eng said in bold above.  Censuring McAdams because he's being critical of the system (not necessarily of a student or colleague) is not in academia's best interests, and on that point I think we all agree.

Where we disagree is:

A) Does the context of the blog entry in any way constitute harassment, humiliation or conduct unbecoming of a Marquette employee?
and
B) Should the TA's name have been used.

With respect to A, there's nothing directly humiliating, harassing, etc., but I think the issue is with the subsequent life the issue took on once others picked it up.  To put this on McAdams that he either knew or should have known that there would be this sort of fallout from the blog entry is a difficult case to make.  Things go viral for no reason whatsoever these days... I've seen YouTube videos that are way more clever, funny, unique, etc. that have less than a tenth of 1% of the page views than some of the crap that's gone viral out there does.  Not every one of McAdams blog entries has led to this type of fallout, and there was nothing inflaming that would have made it stand out.  Even if the media is known to make mountains out of molehills, that doesn't mean you automatically place the unintended fallout* on the back of the original source.

* Maybe that's 'C,' because no, I don't think McAdams intended for any of where this has led to happen.

On B, you've got two former TAs on the record here with differing opinions as to a TA's stature in higher education.  But let's not overlook one fact: the student, as a TA, is in a position of power and with power comes responsibility (damn you, Stan Lee).  Seriously though, the TA is a part-time employee of the University and she is a part-time student, but she is not entitled to the benefits (i.e. protections) of a student when she is acting as an employee just as she is not entitled to the benefits of an employee when she's acting as a student.  Therefore, I don't see anything wrong with McAdams naming her in his entry, just as I wouldn't see anything wrong with him naming any other professor, adjunct or administrator at Marquette or any other institution.

The idea that a graduate teaching assistant somehow drops student status and becomes the same as any other faculty member when she walks through the door of a classroom to teach is nice in theory, but it's simply not how universities work. If power means responsibility, then McAdams has far greater responsibility in this than Abbate, since as a tenured faculty member, he has far greater power in the university structure.  That's not an opinion, that's a fact.  I'm glad you had a good experience as a TA and that the faculty members treated you with respect, but speaking as someone who has directed graduate programs at two different universities, I can assure you that it is not always the case, and that the goodwill of faculty towards graduate students in terms of how they are taught/treated is at the will of the faculty member.  

It's less problematic here in that McAdams is not in the same department, and so likely will never have any direct power/influence over Abbate (and now, it seems, she may be leaving the university as a direct result of McAdams' post and the response to it).  But there's is no reason for him to name her in the blog except as an attack, especially since what actually happened between her and the undergraduate student in her class is not at all settled--there are several different accounts, some of which make Abbate's response to the undergraduate student seem pretty reasonable.  In naming her and rushing to condemn her actions in strong (and perhaps inaccurate) terms, McAdams used Abbate as a prop for his series of sweeping generalizations argument about free speech in academia.  That is far more irresponsible than anything Abbate did.

edited to fix typo

[GGGG]

A graduate student teaching assistant is leaving Marquette University after being publicly targeted by a tenured professor for her response to a student who wanted to argue against gay marriage in her ethics class, according to a national blog for philosophy professionals.

Teaching assistant Cheryl Abbate will transfer next month to the philosophy PhD program at the University of Colorado, Boulder, after being accepted through an expedited admissions process, according to the Daily Nous blog for philosophy professionals maintained by Justin Weinberg, an associate professor of philosophy at the University of South Carolina.

Several sources independently confirmed that Abbate received "vile" emails and threats of physical harm after Marquette associate professor John McAdams accused her in a Nov. 9 post on his conservative-leaning Marquette Warrior blog of "using a tactic typical among liberals now" with the student.

This is really just awful.  Really a shame that it had to end this way.