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Author Topic: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?  (Read 113139 times)

Coleman

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2014, 02:08:47 PM »
Absolutely. Isn't that part of the free exchange of ideas that a university setting is all about?

Would I allow those remarks to go unchallenged?  Absolutely not.  


So there would be no line of what is appropriate and what is not for classroom discussion?

Free exchange of ideas is great, but professors do have a right to determine the topics of discussion. Its not just 50 minutes of free for all discussion. That's what Caffrey's is for after class.

Further, these are undergrads. These are instruction-driven lecture classes. This was not a graduate seminar where the type of discussion that you are referring to is supposed to happen.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 02:11:25 PM by Bleuteaux »

warriorchick

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2014, 02:16:17 PM »
So there would be no line of what is appropriate and what is not for classroom discussion?

Free exchange of ideas is great, but professors do have a right to determine the topics of discussion. Its not just 50 minutes of free discussion. That's what Caffrey's is for after class.

If the topic at hand is racism and some idiot wants to argue that we should bring back slavery, let him talk.  I would have confidence that there would be plenty of other students that would be able to shoot down any "logical" points he may have.  Who knows?  You might be able to change his mind.

Making certain subjects taboo or too sensitive to talk about is what shuts down intelligent discourse.
Have some patience, FFS.

jficke13

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2014, 02:20:11 PM »
Fair enough.

I just think that something like this (or for instance a student being racist in class) isn't exactly conducive to a good learning environment. just my two cents

If the student wants to lay out a belief system that you disagree with so strongly (e.g. racism), then it ought to be pretty easy to expose that student's ideas as foolish by combating their speech with more speech.

warriorchick

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2014, 02:29:46 PM »
This discussion reminds me of my all-time favorite Doonesbury cartoon:

Have some patience, FFS.

drewm88

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2014, 02:33:26 PM »
i sure do hope cheryl doesn't think you are being condescending here.  where are all the defenders of women here?  drew, you are denying that she can defend herself and i'm sure while you were trying to help her out...

well if you are asking me to find the words or a phrase quoting drew saying, that cheryl, she cannot defend herself.  i guess you win.  but, his babbling around discussing the student-teacher interaction wasn't exactly a boost of confidence for her.  you know it and most of the rest of us here see it brandy. if i were the teacher, i would have thanked drew for trying to help, but i've got this one.  drew clearly placates cheryl and in a real sense demeans her as well-well she wasn't ready for the confrontation and had limited experience and the student was all prepared and ..... but to find a direct quote of drew saying cheryl, you cannot defend yourself-  my bad? if you couldn't see this in drews comments, then either you are being dishonest or you have a larger fish to fry in this.

The fact that Ms. Abbate is a woman is irrelevant to this situation. Her identity as a grad student and thus the unlikeliness that she has extensive classroom experience is what matters. If you want to make a case that I'm being condescending towards grad students, feel free. Your implied accusation of sexism is seemingly disingenuous and only serves to derail this conversation. (Ironically similar to how Ms. Abbate may have felt about the discussion of marriage equality in class.)

Your main claims--that I tried to help Ms. Abbate and that I denied she can defend herself--are also off-base. I was simply giving my take on the situation and even labeled it as "my $.02." I have no belief that my post will make a difference for her; I'm just contributing to a discussion about it.

Part of that included my reasons for placing less of the blame on her (and on the student) relative to how much I blame Dr. McAdams. Yes, I was defending her (and the student). That doesn't mean Ms. Abbate can't defend herself. If she was a part of this thread, it might be different. If she had come out and asked people on message boards to stop making a case for her, it might be different. If those conditions are true, then my bad.

Your posts suggest that you consider this conversation to have a whole lot of influence on the situation instead of seeing it as nothing but a relatively inconsequential conversation among observers. I'm happy to continue it as a relatively inconsequential conversation among observers. Again, my only point about Ms. Abbate is that her inexperience partially pardons her here.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2014, 03:05:14 PM »
If the topic at hand is racism and some idiot wants to argue that we should bring back slavery, let him talk.  I would have confidence that there would be plenty of other students that would be able to shoot down any "logical" points he may have.  Who knows?  You might be able to change his mind.

Making certain subjects taboo or too sensitive to talk about is what shuts down intelligent discourse.

Yes and no.

It depends upon the class.

Should we talk about abortion in an ethics class? Maybe, but it's also likely to derail an entire period/conversation.

So, I think it's good to discuss hard topics, but I also think it's generally okay for a professor to determine the time and place.

It's not like anybody is telling (insert student) that they can NEVER discuss a topic. They just can't discuss it in that class on that day. If he/she wants to go back to the dorms and discuss, he can. If he wants to go on the internet, he can. Etc. etc.



Galway Eagle

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2014, 03:31:45 PM »
If the topic at hand is racism and some idiot wants to argue that we should bring back slavery, let him talk.  I would have confidence that there would be plenty of other students that would be able to shoot down any "logical" points he may have.  Who knows?  You might be able to change his mind.

Making certain subjects taboo or too sensitive to talk about is what shuts down intelligent discourse.

But at a predominantly conservative school you likely wouldn't have the same support talking about gay rights and you then get into that one homosexual child in the room feeling ostracized and hated. Let's imagine it was your daughter would you want her in a class where she's hearing about a good deal of people don't want her having the same equality straight people enjoy? Like opinion of the actual issue aside I know if it was my son or daughter I most certainly wouldn't want them to be hated on like that whether those doing it are aware he/she was gay or not.
Maigh Eo for Sam

Coleman

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2014, 03:33:28 PM »
If the topic at hand is racism and some idiot wants to argue that we should bring back slavery, let him talk.  I would have confidence that there would be plenty of other students that would be able to shoot down any "logical" points he may have.  Who knows?  You might be able to change his mind.

Making certain subjects taboo or too sensitive to talk about is what shuts down intelligent discourse.

I disagree. The students are there to learn. 29 other people should not be deprived of a lecture because some racist idiot (in your scenario) wants to talk about his views for a chunk of class time. If every person in class wanted to do that, when would anything actually be taught? Marquette costs way too much money. Professors have a right to determine what and when topics are discussed in class.

Again, this was not a graduate seminar.  
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:37:09 PM by Bleuteaux »

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2014, 03:38:14 PM »
I disagree. The students are there to learn. 29 other people should not be deprived of a lecture because some racist idiot (in your scenario) wants to talk about his views for a chunk of class time. Marquette costs way too much money. Professors have a right to determine what and when topics are discussed in class.

Again, this was not a graduate seminar.  

Completely agree with this to.  If it was a graduate seminar that's a different story those are mature individuals set on a career path or direction of higher education.  This is an undergrad class.
Maigh Eo for Sam

warriorchick

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2014, 03:47:02 PM »
I disagree. The students are there to learn. 29 other people should not be deprived of a lecture because some racist idiot (in your scenario) wants to talk about his views for a chunk of class time. If every person in class wanted to do that, when would anything actually be taught? Marquette costs way too much money. Professors have a right to determine what and when topics are discussed in class.

Again, this was not a graduate seminar.  

What is the point of taking a philosophy class if you can't discuss the points?  It doesn't have to be the entire class time; you don't think that arguing a very controversial point for 5 minutes doesn't have educational value?

I had a Phil class at 8:00 a.m.  The professor was a classic straight-up liberal, complete with longish hair, corduroy elbow patches, John Lennon glasses, and a button that said "Question Authority".  There was a marine ROTC in my class who insisted on engaging the professor on nearly every subject.  At the time, I was like, "Oh my God, would you just shut up!  It's too early for this!" But looking back, I admire his chutzpah. And true to his button, the professor gave him the opportunity to have his say.

Have some patience, FFS.

Coleman

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2014, 03:51:14 PM »
What is the point of taking a philosophy class if you can't discuss the points?  It doesn't have to be the entire class time; you don't think that arguing a very controversial point for 5 minutes doesn't have educational value?

I had a Phil class at 8:00 a.m.  The professor was a classic straight-up liberal, complete with longish hair, corduroy elbow patches, John Lennon glasses, and a button that said "Question Authority".  There was a marine ROTC in my class who insisted on engaging the professor on nearly every subject.  At the time, I was like, "Oh my God, would you just shut up!  It's too early for this!" But looking back, I admire his chutzpah. And true to his button, the professor gave him the opportunity to have his say.



I'm not saying there should be no discussion. I'm saying the professor has the right to determine the points of discussion and what is in or out of bounds.

Since you took Phil, you must remember Kant's third formulation of the categorical imperative...

What if every student in your class acted like the marine ROTC? If his behavior was universalized, when would you have learned anything? This is why instructors need to have the ability to regulate discussion. Pretty simple.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:53:24 PM by Bleuteaux »

jficke13

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2014, 04:54:05 PM »
I'm not saying there should be no discussion. I'm saying the professor has the right to determine the points of discussion and what is in or out of bounds.

...

What if every student in your class acted like the marine ROTC? If his behavior was universalized, when would you have learned anything? This is why instructors need to have the ability to regulate discussion. Pretty simple.

I think that the reason that people get their backs against a wall about this is the appearance that the response to speech/ideas that the university/society doesn't like is to silence that speech rather than to combat it with more speech. By turning dissenting opinion into something that has no value, e.g. criticism of gay marriage = "hate speech," then it is simply silenced.

Honestly, I rather doubt that this is as widespread of a "problem" as some people fear, but I understand the reaction to look skeptically on an environment of learning that silences dissenting opinion.

muwarrior69

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2014, 05:33:30 PM »
I think that the reason that people get their backs against a wall about this is the appearance that the response to speech/ideas that the university/society doesn't like is to silence that speech rather than to combat it with more speech. By turning dissenting opinion into something that has no value, e.g. criticism of gay marriage = "hate speech," then it is simply silenced.

Honestly, I rather doubt that this is as widespread of a "problem" as some people fear, but I understand the reaction to look skeptically on an environment of learning that silences dissenting opinion.

Tell that to Condaleeza Rice who had to withdraw from her commencement speech because a group of liberal faculty threatened to disrupt commencement proceedings at Rutgers this last spring. It seems only liberal speakers are welcome at many of our Universities.

brandx

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2014, 05:49:12 PM »
Tell that to Condaleeza Rice who had to withdraw from her commencement speech because a group of liberal faculty threatened to disrupt commencement proceedings at Rutgers this last spring. It seems only liberal speakers are welcome at many of our Universities.

Silly and untrue. Happens on both sides.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2014, 06:04:13 PM »
Tell that to Condaleeza Rice who had to withdraw from her commencement speech because a group of liberal faculty threatened to disrupt commencement proceedings at Rutgers this last spring. It seems only liberal speakers are welcome at many of our Universities.

Such a stupid post. For starters if some of your opinions are going to make people feel like they're going to hell or don't have equal rights then live with the consequences of having them. Second I'm sure that if you wanna see a conservative speaker you needn't look much farther than conservative universities. Finally if a party is having trouble keeping in touch with a young demographic why would they make a good commencement speaker for a bunch of young people? Furthermore why do you feel that commencement speakers need to be politicized?
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WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2014, 06:07:30 PM »
Silly and untrue. Happens on both sides.

  Examples Please..  Don't seem to recall any Liberal speakers being denied the right to address an audience..

Ellisium

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2014, 06:12:06 PM »
  Examples Please..  Don't seem to recall any Liberal speakers being denied the right to address an audience..

Gabrielle Giffords comes to mind and she had to give up a chunk of her head during a speech, because a crazy conservative thought she was the devil. 

warriorchick

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2014, 06:45:26 PM »
Gabrielle Giffords comes to mind and she had to give up a chunk of her head during a speech, because a crazy conservative thought she was the devil. 

Yes, it's a scientific fact that all mentally people are conservatives.
Have some patience, FFS.

muwarrior69

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2014, 06:52:15 PM »
Such a stupid post. For starters if some of your opinions are going to make people feel like they're going to hell or don't have equal rights then live with the consequences of having them. Second I'm sure that if you wanna see a conservative speaker you needn't look much farther than conservative universities. Finally if a party is having trouble keeping in touch with a young demographic why would they make a good commencement speaker for a bunch of young people? Furthermore why do you feel that commencement speakers need to be politicized?

It wasn't the students that protested it was faculty members....and my cousin and her friends were looking forward to her speak at their graduation.

reinko

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2014, 06:55:18 PM »
  Examples Please..  Don't seem to recall any Liberal speakers being denied the right to address an audience..


Not getting political,  just providing an example.

The first lady in Topeka,  Kansas.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/204285-michelle-obama-scraps-graduation-speech-after-protests

 


muwarrior69

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2014, 07:00:39 PM »

Not getting political,  just providing an example.

The first lady in Topeka,  Kansas.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/204285-michelle-obama-scraps-graduation-speech-after-protests

 



They protested due to security concerns not her political views; not quite the same.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2014, 07:14:12 PM »
It wasn't the students that protested it was faculty members....and my cousin and her friends were looking forward to her speak at their graduation.

I'm sure they were as people have a tendency to befriend like minded individuals. Personally I think she should've spoken as long as the speech didn't include her political beliefs (I also stand by my live with the consequences that your views will make people feel like they're going to hell or don't have equal rights as well)

Not denying that teachers protested but students did as well

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/nyregion/rice-backs-out-of-rutgers-speech-after-student-protests.html?referrer=
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Eldon

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2014, 07:15:05 PM »
Either Utah or Utah State had a femnist speaker withdraw because of protests (gamers threatened her). UC-Berkeley also had some hoopla over inviting Bill Maher to speak (the students disliked his views on Islam).

The ubiquitous protesting of conservative commencement speakers was noted by Michael Bloomberg. He gave a good speech on it (I'd link, but I'm on my phone and can't copy and paste for some reason).

muwarrior69

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2014, 10:07:14 AM »
I'm sure they were as people have a tendency to befriend like minded individuals. Personally I think she should've spoken as long as the speech didn't include her political beliefs (I also stand by my live with the consequences that your views will make people feel like they're going to hell or don't have equal rights as well)

Not denying that teachers protested but students did as well

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/nyregion/rice-backs-out-of-rutgers-speech-after-student-protests.html?referrer=

Just because I believe that people should not be silenced for their beliefs be that in the class room, at college commencements or protesters in Ferguson does not mean I believe the LGBT community is going to hell or does not deserve equal rights. My married daughter has two gay BFFs since high school. They are very fine gentleman and my family has never placed any judgement on their life style. In fact one is a Seton Hall grad and it has become a tradition for us to see MU play Seton Hall here every year in New Jersey. So who is judging who here?

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: MU CINO (Catholic in name only)?
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2014, 10:29:31 AM »
Just because I believe that people should not be silenced for their beliefs be that in the class room, at college commencements or protesters in Ferguson does not mean I believe the LGBT community is going to hell or does not deserve equal rights. My married daughter has two gay BFFs since high school. They are very fine gentleman and my family has never placed any judgement on their life style. In fact one is a Seton Hall grad and it has become a tradition for us to see MU play Seton Hall here every year in New Jersey. So who is judging who here?

I think we're confusing an instructor running a class, and somebody having their speech restricted.

They aren't the same thing.

An instructor may limit topics or discussions in order to keep an issue moving, or change the direction of a discussion. They are instructing a class, and have a responsibility/ability to run the class accordingly.

If a student doesn't appreciate that, he can go someplace else and espouse his/her views, or he can take a different class.

This isn't that complicated. This isn't political persecution.