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Author Topic: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?  (Read 60585 times)

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2014, 04:34:41 PM »
Compelled? No. Who said compelled? Nonetheless, I'm damn glad Jae Crowder came to MU.

Right, but MU's policy doesn't retroactively remove Jae from the record books.

This isn't about Jae.

This is about an academic policy that MU has in place. As TAMU explained it, it seems reasonable to me. They want to take kids to have a chance to graduate in 4 years. I don't see anything wrong with that approach.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2014, 04:35:58 PM »
Because that player has a high school diploma and didn't get a 7 on his ACT?  I, at 25 years old, could re-enroll at Marquette University starting in the Spring and pursue a degree that I do not have.  There is no timetable saying, "You must graduate from Marquette University in four years."  Or, "You must have graduated by the end of the school year that you turn 22 years old in."  I could work full time, go to Marquette University part time, and get another degree over the course of 6 years.  Why should we limit student-athletes, who put more time and effort into both the student and the athlete part than I did as just a student, to just 4 years to get a degree?

Just because some students are not on track to graduate in 4 years doesn't mean they aren't on track to graduate at all, or won't graduate at all.

Righhht, but student athletes HAVE to be full-time students. That's part of the deal. There are all sorts of restrictions on student athletes that regular students don't have. That's not new.

Also, if you want to go to MU and pay your own way, you have lots of options. If you want to go to MU and be on a scholarship (athletic or academic), there are some restrictions on you (how many classes you take, GPA, major, etc. etc.).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 04:42:59 PM by Canned Goods n Ammo »

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #127 on: October 31, 2014, 04:54:22 PM »
Righhht, but student athletes HAVE to be full-time students. That's part of the deal. There are all sorts of restrictions on student athletes that regular students don't have. That's not new.

Also, if you want to go to MU and pay your own way, you have lots of options. If you want to go to MU and be on a scholarship (athletic or academic), there are some restrictions on you (how many classes you take, GPA, major, etc. etc.).

Again, correct. 

wadesworld

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #128 on: October 31, 2014, 05:29:12 PM »
Righhht, but student athletes HAVE to be full-time students. That's part of the deal. There are all sorts of restrictions on student athletes that regular students don't have. That's not new.

Also, if you want to go to MU and pay your own way, you have lots of options. If you want to go to MU and be on a scholarship (athletic or academic), there are some restrictions on you (how many classes you take, GPA, major, etc. etc.).

Right.  And these kids have been and would be full time students.  I have yet to see a reasonable argument to require student athletes to finish their degree in 4 years.  If a player redshirts due to not being ready to contribute to the team do we kick him out after 4 years?  If he redshirts due to injury do we kick him out of Marquette after 4 years?

I'm with you, these players need to stay academically eligible.  But being academically eligible doesn't require graduating in 4 years.
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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #129 on: October 31, 2014, 07:08:06 PM »
Right.  And these kids have been and would be full time students.  I have yet to see a reasonable argument to require student athletes to finish their degree in 4 years.  If a player redshirts due to not being ready to contribute to the team do we kick him out after 4 years?  If he redshirts due to injury do we kick him out of Marquette after 4 years?

I'm with you, these players need to stay academically eligible.  But being academically eligible doesn't require graduating in 4 years.

1. Some universities interpret it is a requirement of NCAA bylaws.
2. School cannot pay for their tuition after eligibility runs out and most cannot afford tuition without help.
3. It can hurt APR score.
4. Administration views taking a basketball player who has no chance of graduation as unethical. Exploits the athlete part of student athlete and doesn't support the student part.
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wadesworld

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #130 on: October 31, 2014, 08:23:07 PM »
1. Some universities interpret it is a requirement of NCAA bylaws.
2. School cannot pay for their tuition after eligibility runs out and most cannot afford tuition without help.
3. It can hurt APR score.
4. Administration views taking a basketball player who has no chance of graduation as unethical. Exploits the athlete part of student athlete and doesn't support the student part.

So giving someone 2 years worth of free education/the opportunity to become 2 years closer to completing a degree without paying a penny for it is "exploint[ing] the athlete part of student athlete" without "support[ing] the student part?"  Not to mention, reaping the absurd amount of monetary benefit that the student athletes on the basketball team bring to the University is not "exploint[ing] the athlete part of student athlete?"  If these are truly "administration views" then I have some serious questions about/problems with the administration.  Especially at a Jesuit University.  The Jesuits were about allowing underprivileged people the opportunity for a quality education.  We're going to tell a kid who has worked his butt off to go from not being eligible out of high school to completing an associate degree to become eligible for division 1 basketball that he's not good enough for our school because he won't complete his degree in 4 years when we don't even require that from the rest of our student body?  Wow.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 08:27:47 PM by wadesworld »
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2014, 01:33:18 AM »
So giving someone 2 years worth of free education/the opportunity to become 2 years closer to completing a degree without paying a penny for it is "exploint[ing] the athlete part of student athlete" without "support[ing] the student part?"  Not to mention, reaping the absurd amount of monetary benefit that the student athletes on the basketball team bring to the University is not "exploint[ing] the athlete part of student athlete?"  If these are truly "administration views" then I have some serious questions about/problems with the administration.  Especially at a Jesuit University.  The Jesuits were about allowing underprivileged people the opportunity for a quality education.  We're going to tell a kid who has worked his butt off to go from not being eligible out of high school to completing an associate degree to become eligible for division 1 basketball that he's not good enough for our school because he won't complete his degree in 4 years when we don't even require that from the rest of our student body?  Wow.

Don't try to take the moral high ground unless you are fighting for ALL underprivledged students without the proper grades to get into Marquette. That is a noble cause. Fighting to allow students who won't be successful off the court at Marquette to play basketball for you is something else.

You also ignored the first three points.
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TheBurrEffect

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2014, 01:51:08 AM »

4. Administration views taking a basketball player who has no chance of graduation as unethical. Exploits the athlete part of student athlete and doesn't support the student part.

You do realize that a vast majority of "student athletes" enroll in an utterly useless communications degree correct?

wadesworld

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #133 on: November 01, 2014, 03:31:25 AM »
Don't try to take the moral high ground unless you are fighting for ALL underprivledged students without the proper grades to get into Marquette. That is a noble cause. Fighting to allow students who won't be successful off the court at Marquette to play basketball for you is something else.

You also ignored the first three points.

Except that Marquette already makes exceptions when it comes to admitting student athletes to the school, as does just about every single college in America. So no, that's not taking the "moral high ground," it's pointing out an incredible flaw in "policy." If a JUCO meets all the requirements to get into Marquette University there is absolutely no reason we should be denying them because they will take extra time to graduate. Either that or we should be kicking every student out after 4 years at Marquette.

And okay?

1) Okay.
2) Okay. (Although given the fact that D3 schools that cannot give out athletic scholarships find a way to make an education affordable to student athletes that they want in their programs, I think Marquette could probably find a way to make its education affordable for an extra semester to a basketball player who helped bring in millions of dollars for the school and who also helps Marquette by getting that degree - see point 3 - so not sure this one's not easily addressed either.)
3) Okay.

I didn't know you had to disprove every facet of an argument. Imagine a lawyer pulling out that card in court. "But your honor, he only absolutely disproved the fact that his client didn't in fact trip the victim, the victim instead drunkenly tripped over his own foot. But he never addressed that his client had been drinking, his client was in the same building as the victim, and the victim is now paralyzed due to a fall. So...his client has to be guilty!"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 03:34:35 AM by wadesworld »
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #134 on: November 01, 2014, 08:38:30 AM »
You do realize that a vast majority of "student athletes" enroll in an utterly useless communications degree correct?

I was a communications major and am currently working in a very comfortable job, thank you very much.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 08:46:57 AM by The Adventures of HE-Man and the Kangaroo Kid »
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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #135 on: November 01, 2014, 09:09:33 AM »
Except that Marquette already makes exceptions when it comes to admitting student athletes to the school, as does just about every single college in America....Either that or we should be kicking every student out after 4 years at Marquette.

True, student-athletes get exceptions during the admissions process all the time. They also have extra requirements put on them all the time. There are universities that restrict them to certain majors, don't allow them to double major, don't allow them to study abroad, limit them to certain credit hours, force them to go to certain academic programs, etc. Having one that stipulates that the must be humanly possible for them to graduate before their eligibility runs out is fairly common and mundane.

So no, that's not taking the "moral high ground," it's pointing out an incredible flaw in "policy." If a JUCO meets all the requirements to get into Marquette University there is absolutely no reason we should be denying them because they will take extra time to graduate.

Sorry, I took the whole "Jesuits are all about helping underprivileged students" as trying to take the moral high ground. Marquette values the academics of their players. It is an important factor in deciding who we recruit and who we don't. Marquette only wants to recruit students who they think will be successful at Marquette. Part of the university's definition of success (and the NCAA's) is graduation. If it is not humanely possible for them to graduate before their eligibility runs out, that is a significant risk factor to whether or not the student will be successful at Marquette.

2) Okay. (Although given the fact that D3 schools that cannot give out athletic scholarships find a way to make an education affordable to student athletes that they want in their programs, I think Marquette could probably find a way to make its education affordable for an extra semester to a basketball player who helped bring in millions of dollars for the school and who also helps Marquette by getting that degree - see point 3 - so not sure this one's not easily addressed either.

I still haven't decided excatly where I fall on this argument. On one hand, I think a full ride to a university is pretty healthy compensation. But on the other hand, there are many policies the NCAA has that are quesionable at best and really trod on the student-athlete's rights. But as of right now, it is out of Marquette's hands. They don't have the power to change NCAA bylaws (by themselves). And D3 schools are a much different monster than D1. They are by in large, exponentially less expensive than a school like Marquette. They also are intentional about the socio-economic status of students they recruit. Before TAMU, I worked at a D2 school and we had to be very intentional about who we were recruiting since we could only give partial rides.

I didn't know you had to disprove every facet of an argument. Imagine a lawyer pulling out that card in court. "But your honor, he only absolutely disproved the fact that his client didn't in fact trip the victim, the victim instead drunkenly tripped over his own foot. But he never addressed that his client had been drinking, his client was in the same building as the victim, and the victim is now paralyzed due to a fall. So...his client has to be guilty!"

You don't. I was just pointing out that I had three other less "philosophical" arguments. Also, I was very drunk when I wrote that last night, was impressed it came out coherent at all. And I'm very hungover while writing this (damn 11 am football game), so if it's not coherent, I apologize.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #136 on: November 01, 2014, 10:14:51 AM »
You do realize that a vast majority of "student athletes" enroll in an utterly useless communications degree correct?

Major stereotype. Maybe some of the classes are easier for certain majors but as someone who's in advertising Id laugh at seeing someone like yourself do the stuff we do with the kind of pressure we do.  Hey next time you watch those really awesome super bowl advertisements with your family and think "how do they come up with this stuff" you can go ahead and remind yourself it was a bunch of people with that "useless communication degree"
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TheBurrEffect

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #137 on: November 01, 2014, 12:17:28 PM »
Major stereotype. Maybe some of the classes are easier for certain majors but as someone who's in advertising Id laugh at seeing someone like yourself do the stuff we do with the kind of pressure we do.  Hey next time you watch those really awesome super bowl advertisements with your family and think "how do they come up with this stuff" you can go ahead and remind yourself it was a bunch of people with that "useless communication degree"

http://www.university.com/most_laid_back_majors/

There's a reason a vast majority of profit based sports take this major. It's because its the least time consuming of all majors across the board. The next time your studying for hours on end, remember theres a 100 other majors pulling 3x the amount of all nighters.

Edit:Some more reading on this "problem"
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/college/2014/06/01/Do-colleges-drop-the-ball-with-student-athletes/stories/201406010120
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/jun/15/athletes-tendencies-cluster-certain-academic-field/
http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2010/10/27/majors-duke-football-player-choice-academic-majors
http://dailyorange.com/2013/04/major-issues-trend-toward-crs-cfs-raise-questions-at-syracuse/

I attempted to weed out the ones that include non profit sports as that can skew the results.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 12:22:56 PM by TheBurrEffect »

Eldon

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #138 on: November 01, 2014, 03:36:09 PM »
If you are hard-working, personable, and have at least some base level of intelligence, you will get a decent job, regardless of major.  It may take you a little longer to get one since you lose some of the signalling value and/or technical expertise that other majors have/require, but you will eventually get a solid job, from which you can always work your way up.

MU82

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #139 on: November 01, 2014, 03:47:58 PM »
You do realize that a vast majority of "student athletes" enroll in an utterly useless communications degree correct?

Hey ... my wife and I earned utterly useless communications degrees!

Actually, it was Journalism back then. And one of us (me) did become a journalist. So it was only semi-useless. Take back that "utterly" at once!
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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #140 on: November 01, 2014, 03:59:04 PM »
Major stereotype. Maybe some of the classes are easier for certain majors but as someone who's in advertising Id laugh at seeing someone like yourself do the stuff we do with the kind of pressure we do.  Hey next time you watch those really awesome super bowl advertisements with your family and think "how do they come up with this stuff" you can go ahead and remind yourself it was a bunch of people with that "useless communication degree"

Worked with marketing/advertising people a lot when I was involved in IT/Multimedia and always thought they had a lot tougher job than I did. I didn't have to be "creative".

TheBurrEffect

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2014, 05:12:21 PM »
Hey ... my wife and I earned utterly useless communications degrees!

Actually, it was Journalism back then. And one of us (me) did become a journalist. So it was only semi-useless. Take back that "utterly" at once!

But Journalism and communication degrees aren't the same silly =)

Dawson Rental

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2014, 05:33:35 PM »
1. Some universities interpret it is a requirement of NCAA bylaws.
2. School cannot pay for their tuition after eligibility runs out and most cannot afford tuition without help.
3. It can hurt APR score.
4. Administration views taking a basketball player who has no chance of graduation as unethical. Exploits the athlete part of student athlete and doesn't support the student part.

Wow, don't get me started.  How was slavery possible in America for so long?  How was the England's oppression of Ireland and India justified?  By self serving intellectual rationalizations like this crud.

The NCAA will undermine any financially feasible basketball minor league system by functioning as that minor league system, but them will only take those players who don't make them look bad while they do it.   Do you lack the talent to succeed as both a student and an athlete at an NCAA institution?  Well, sucks to be you, it isn't the NCAA's problem.  Although the NCAA created that problem for you, the NCAA won't help you deal with it because that would be exploitation.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #143 on: November 02, 2014, 10:02:31 PM »
http://www.university.com/most_laid_back_majors/

There's a reason a vast majority of profit based sports take this major. It's because its the least time consuming of all majors across the board. The next time your studying for hours on end, remember theres a 100 other majors pulling 3x the amount of all nighters.

Edit:Some more reading on this "problem"
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/college/2014/06/01/Do-colleges-drop-the-ball-with-student-athletes/stories/201406010120
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/jun/15/athletes-tendencies-cluster-certain-academic-field/
http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2010/10/27/majors-duke-football-player-choice-academic-majors
http://dailyorange.com/2013/04/major-issues-trend-toward-crs-cfs-raise-questions-at-syracuse/

I attempted to weed out the ones that include non profit sports as that can skew the results.

First I'm an alum I don't find myself studying for hours on end anymore thank you.

Second, communication is a college that you insulted, yes there is a comm major that it entirely worthless but when you insult the whole college I'll get defensive.  Time or not you didn't directly address anything I said nor did you provide data backing up your claim that it was useless you instead just threw some random data about how much time is invested in studying. Well like anything you get out what you put in. It might be easier to get a C but in the end I'd argue an A is just as much a pain as many other schools' classes
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MU82

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #144 on: November 03, 2014, 07:45:03 AM »
But Journalism and communication degrees aren't the same silly =)

600 years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was at Marquette, there was no such major as "communications."

And I will admit that, as a Journalism major, I had it easier than most of my non-J-school friends. They were always studying for tests. In J-school, especially as an upperclassman, I got to write articles and papers rather than take tests.

Of course, many of my friends thought I had it tougher because, to them, writing anything was pure torture.
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #145 on: November 03, 2014, 07:55:51 AM »
Just to bring this back on point:

There are certain requirements for kids of scholarships (academic, evans scholars, athletic, etc.). GPA, class load, major, etc. etc.

MU's stance on accepting athletic transfers who are on track to graduate (before their eligibility runs out) seems reasonable to me, and seems to be in line with the other various scholarship policies that I know of.

I'm pretty sure if I get a full academic scholarship to MU, it's not good indefinitely. I can't keep changing majors and be in school for free for 8 years. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

MU82

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #146 on: November 03, 2014, 08:15:48 AM »
Just to bring this back on point:

There are certain requirements for kids of scholarships (academic, evans scholars, athletic, etc.). GPA, class load, major, etc. etc.

MU's stance on accepting athletic transfers who are on track to graduate (before their eligibility runs out) seems reasonable to me, and seems to be in line with the other various scholarship policies that I know of.

I'm pretty sure if I get a full academic scholarship to MU, it's not good indefinitely. I can't keep changing majors and be in school for free for 8 years. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

How dare you get back on point! How 'bout that protest in Minnesota about the Washington NFL team's name?
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wadesworld

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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #147 on: November 03, 2014, 08:24:01 AM »
Just to bring this back on point:

There are certain requirements for kids of scholarships (academic, evans scholars, athletic, etc.). GPA, class load, major, etc. etc.

MU's stance on accepting athletic transfers who are on track to graduate (before their eligibility runs out) seems reasonable to me, and seems to be in line with the other various scholarship policies that I know of.

I'm pretty sure if I get a full academic scholarship to MU, it's not good indefinitely. I can't keep changing majors and be in school for free for 8 years. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

What's funny is my brother got the Burke Scholarship (full scholarship) and did not enjoy his living situation the first semester of his sophomore year, so he chose to take the 2nd semester off his sophomore year and volunteer in PA for the semester.  He still received the full scholarship for the Burke for the extra semester he was at Marquette beyond his 4 years.
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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #148 on: November 03, 2014, 09:10:51 AM »
What's funny is my brother got the Burke Scholarship (full scholarship) and did not enjoy his living situation the first semester of his sophomore year, so he chose to take the 2nd semester off his sophomore year and volunteer in PA for the semester.  He still received the full scholarship for the Burke for the extra semester he was at Marquette beyond his 4 years.

Fair enough. Honestly, I won't pretend to know all of MU's scholarships and scholarship requirements. I was making a broad assumption, but maybe I'm just an idiot. I did graduate from the school of communications (gasp!).

The athletic transfer policy sounds reasonable. I guess that's it (for me).


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Re: Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?
« Reply #149 on: November 03, 2014, 10:14:51 AM »
Major stereotype. Maybe some of the classes are easier for certain majors but as someone who's in advertising Id laugh at seeing someone like yourself do the stuff we do with the kind of pressure we do.  Hey next time you watch those really awesome super bowl advertisements with your family and think "how do they come up with this stuff" you can go ahead and remind yourself it was a bunch of people with that "useless communication degree"
According to MadMen everyone in advertising starts cocktailing at 10AM and screws the available babes whenever the opportunity presents itself.  Sounds like fun to me.