Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes you can. I could have told you last year with a very high degree of certainty that, for example, Jabari Parker, Andre Wiggins and Noah Vonleh (among others) wouldn't play for 4 years. As a matter of fact, I would have borrowed money (after I bet all of mine) to bet you that none of those guys would be in college as long or come as close to graduating as Jae Crowder did.

Once again, it is not about how likely it is that they will graduate in four years. It is about whether or not it is physically possible for them to graduate before their eligibility expires.

Parker, Wiggins, and Vonleh all had the ability to graduate within four years. They chose not to. Jae Crowder had 0% chance of graduating before his eligibility ran out. It was an impossibility. He literally could not take enough credits in order to earn a degree (unless he redshirtted). This has nothing to do with Jae being a juco, or not being a good student. The university doesn't care if its unlikely that a student athlete will graduate in four years, they just care if it is possible to graduate in four years. So any examples about one and dones or non-athletes taking more than 4 years to graduate are invalid comparisons. It was possible for them to graduate in four years. They choose not to.

[4everwarriors]

Pretty sure Tatum was not a Juco.

William Earl came outta Mt. Vernon High School, same as Gus Williams.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Once again, it is not about how likely it is that they will graduate in four years. It is about whether or not it is physically possible for them to graduate before their eligibility expires.

Parker, Wiggins, and Vonleh all had the ability to graduate within four years. They chose not to. Jae Crowder had 0% chance of graduating before his eligibility ran out. It was an impossibility. He literally could not take enough credits in order to earn a degree (unless he redshirtted). This has nothing to do with Jae being a juco, or not being a good student. The university doesn't care if its unlikely that a student athlete will graduate in four years, they just care if it is possible to graduate in four years. So any examples about one and dones or non-athletes taking more than 4 years to graduate are invalid comparisons. It was possible for them to graduate in four years. They choose not to.

Exactly.  Unless he was going to take 30 hours a semester, plus max out in Summer school, it couldn't happen.

[Lennys Tap]

Exactly.  Unless he was going to take 30 hours a semester, plus max out in Summer school, it couldn't happen.

That would be 144 in two years. How many credits does one need to graduate from MU (128 back in the Dark Ages when I was there). Did Jae arrive at MU with negative credits?

everyone knew Noah Vonleh was one and done at IU. Unless he was going to take 60 hours a semester he wasn't graduating either.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

everyone knew Noah Vonleh was one and done at IU. Unless he was going to take 60 hours a semester he wasn't graduating either.

Doesn't matter. It was still POSSIBLE. Vonleh could choose to stay or leave. Jae couldn't choose to finish his degree on time.

[Lennys Tap]

Doesn't matter. It was still POSSIBLE. Vonleh could choose to stay or leave. Jae couldn't choose to finish his degree on time.

You remind me of Jim Carey in "Dumb and Dumber" when Lauren Holly says he's got a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance with her and he grins ear to ear and says "So you're sayin' there's a chance".

It DOES matter if you want to deal in reality and not lottery chance possibilities.

[wadesworld]

All I'm saying is why should we require basketball players to complete their degree in 4 years when we don't require that from any other student? There was no timeframe given to me when I enrolled in Marquette regarding the amount of time I was allowed to spend as a student at Marquette. Why should there be for someone who will not only be a student like me but will also carry the burden of being a division one student on top of it? They will get financial support from the school if they need to take an extra semester or year or whatever it may be to complete there degree, no doubt about it. A degree is a degree whether it takes you 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, or 20 years to get it. If we won't allow student athletes into MU who won't complete their degree in 4 years then let's kick every student out after 4 years, degree in hand or not. It's only fair.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You remind me of Jim Carey in "Dumb and Dumber" when Lauren Holly says he's got a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance with her and he grins ear to ear and says "So you're sayin' there's a chance".

It DOES matter if you want to deal in reality and not lottery chance possibilities.

The policy put in place by the administration was that a recruit must be in a position where it is humanly possible for them to take enough credit hours before their eligibility expires. Potential one and dones are qualified under this rule. Jae Crowder does not. That's the rule. You can say you don't like the rule, but it's not changing. Nor do I personally think it should change. For me, there is an important distinction between "lottery chance possibility" and physically impossible.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That would be 144 in two years. How many credits does one need to graduate from MU (128 back in the Dark Ages when I was there). Did Jae arrive at MU with negative credits?

everyone knew Noah Vonleh was one and done at IU. Unless he was going to take 60 hours a semester he wasn't graduating either.

Excuse the exaggeration, the premise is the same, he could not take enough credits to graduate in the time of his eligibility which everyone's knew at the time.

Your analogy is incorrect on Vonleh.  He could have blown his knee out, returned to play three more years, etc.  there are at least two guys on Kentucky's teams the last two years that were supposed to be one and done that everyone knew about....didn't happen.  One and done isn't known until you actually play, find out your worth, gauge if it is right to go or not.  Otherwise, you nailed it.....

[ChicosBailBonds]

All I'm saying is why should we require basketball players to complete their degree in 4 years when we don't require that from any other student? There was no timeframe given to me when I enrolled in Marquette regarding the amount of time I was allowed to spend as a student at Marquette. Why should there be for someone who will not only be a student like me but will also carry the burden of being a division one student on top of it? They will get financial support from the school if they need to take an extra semester or year or whatever it may be to complete there degree, no doubt about it. A degree is a degree whether it takes you 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, or 20 years to get it. If we won't allow student athletes into MU who won't complete their degree in 4 years then let's kick every student out after 4 years, degree in hand or not. It's only fair.

Well one important reason is the NCAA graduation requirements to compute APR which does not just say a degree is degree regardless of time it takes to earn.  That's why it is important.

[GGGG]

Well one important reason is the NCAA graduation requirements to compute APR which does not just say a degree is degree regardless of time it takes to earn.  That's why it is important.

Exactly.

There is no "rule" that wouldn't allow Buzz or Wojo to not take *any* two-year Jucos.  Marquette just doesn't want a lot of them because of APR score issues.  And really part of it is because of the programming that Marquette offers.

It has nothing to do with "squirmyness" about Jucos in general.

[Lennys Tap]

Doesn't matter. It was still POSSIBLE. Vonleh could choose to stay or leave. Jae couldn't choose to finish his degree on time.

How many hours is it POSSIBLE for a student to take per semester at MU? 18? 21? 18x4 semesters = 72. 12 summer school credits x 3 years (including the summer after spring semester of his senior year =36. 72+36=108, 20 hours short of graduation. Didn't ANY of his JC credits transfer? Are you sure it was not POSSIBLE for him to graduate?

[GGGG]

How many hours is it POSSIBLE for a student to take per semester at MU? 18? 21? 18x4 semesters = 72. 12 summer school credits x 3 years (including the summer after spring semester of his senior year =36. 72+36=108, 20 hours short of graduation. Didn't ANY of his JC credits transfer? Are you sure it was not POSSIBLE for him to graduate?

As I explained up above, many Jucos are phy ed majors.  Without a phy ed program at Marquette, credits can transfer, but they may not transfer as part of their major.  So they only have two years to build a major, a minor, and fill in any blanks in their core curriculum requirements.  It isn't easy.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How many hours is it POSSIBLE for a student to take per semester at MU? 18? 21? 18x4 semesters = 72. 12 summer school credits x 3 years (including the summer after spring semester of his senior year =36. 72+36=108, 20 hours short of graduation. Didn't ANY of his JC credits transfer? Are you sure it was not POSSIBLE for him to graduate?

100% positive. You counted three years of summer school credits. Jae had one. He spent the summer before coming to Marquette scrambling to qualify. The summer after Marquette isn't covered either. The basketball team also puts stricter limits on how many classes you can take, 15 is the max (without special permission). They also push student athletes to take 12 because of how big of a time suck basketball is.

And yes, Jae came in with almost 0 (if not 0) credits towards a major. The whole going to an unaccredited juco and blitzing through an associate's degree as phy ed major in one year really hurt him.

It was not humanly possible for Jae to finish before his eligibility ran out. But the university allowed it. We took the hit in APR and were fine with it. Afterwards, the administration decided that taking a student who had 0% chance of graduating before his eligibility ran out made it seem like the university cared more about the athlete part of student athlete than the student part. Some universities are ok with that, others aren't.

To be clear, Jae is a fantastic human being. I had classes with him, worked with him, he even gave me his championship hat after winning paradise jam. I'm glad the university took a chance on him. I hope the university takes more chances on students like Jae who are not basketball players. In fact, we could recruit another Jae Crowder situation player in the future, but it will come with the stipulation of a redshirt. Which would better for the student side of student athlete.

[GGGG]

How many hours is it POSSIBLE for a student to take per semester at MU? 18? 21? 18x4 semesters = 72. 12 summer school credits x 3 years (including the summer after spring semester of his senior year =36. 72+36=108, 20 hours short of graduation. Didn't ANY of his JC credits transfer? Are you sure it was not POSSIBLE for him to graduate?

The other thing you are forgetting is that in many major programs, certain prerequisites need to be met before other classes can be taken.  So it isn't just about the number of credits, its about having enough time to stack courses on top of one another.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The other thing you are forgetting is that in many major programs, certain prerequisites need to be met before other classes can be taken.  So it isn't just about the number of credits, its about having enough time to stack courses on top of one another.

Also true.

[humanlung]

Buzz is screaming in his hokie hokie hell hole.


http://www.anonymouseagle.com/2014/10/28/7084991/marquette-basketball-recruiting-deshawn-freeman-steve-wojciechowski-wojo

The old philosophical question...if a redneck screams in Blacksburg, will anyone notice?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

This seems like an unnecessary stand if we were to adopt a the 'lifetime' scholarship process (if caring for the student is the concern).  That way they can have the path to a degree available but also achieve their dreams like any other college bball player (i.e. I think Lazar was thrown out as an example).

Now I'm not advocating taking a risk so often that you blow the APR score, but I think it is really silly to say you won't recruit a JUCO that can't finish but will recruit someone in the top 5 that has indicated he will likely not be a 4 year player.  I guess it makes the administration 'feel better' but it sure seems like a technicality to me.

Buzz may have pushed the bounds of the risk taking here -- but seems like an over-correction to act as if we own some sort of false moral high-ground. 

100% positive. You counted three years of summer school credits. Jae had one. He spent the summer before coming to Marquette scrambling to qualify. The summer after Marquette isn't covered either. The basketball team also puts stricter limits on how many classes you can take, 15 is the max (without special permission). They also push student athletes to take 12 because of how big of a time suck basketball is.

And yes, Jae came in with almost 0 (if not 0) credits towards a major. The whole going to an unaccredited juco and blitzing through an associate's degree as phy ed major in one year really hurt him.

It was not humanly possible for Jae to finish before his eligibility ran out. But the university allowed it. We took the hit in APR and were fine with it. Afterwards, the administration decided that taking a student who had 0% chance of graduating before his eligibility ran out made it seem like the university cared more about the athlete part of student athlete than the student part. Some universities are ok with that, others aren't.

To be clear, Jae is a fantastic human being. I had classes with him, worked with him, he even gave me his championship hat after winning paradise jam. I'm glad the university took a chance on him. I hope the university takes more chances on students like Jae who are not basketball players. In fact, we could recruit another Jae Crowder situation player in the future, but it will come with the stipulation of a redshirt. Which would better for the student side of student athlete.

[Lennys Tap]

This seems like an unnecessary stand if we were to adopt a the 'lifetime' scholarship process (if caring for the student is the concern).  That way they can have the path to a degree available but also achieve their dreams like any other college bball player (i.e. I think Lazar was thrown out as an example).

Now I'm not advocating taking a risk so often that you blow the APR score, but I think it is really silly to say you won't recruit a JUCO that can't finish but will recruit someone in the top 5 that has indicated he will likely not be a 4 year player.  I guess it makes the administration 'feel better' but it sure seems like a technicality to me.

Buzz may have pushed the bounds of the risk taking here -- but seems like an over-correction to act as if we own some sort of false moral high-ground. 

+10,000

[wadesworld]

This seems like an unnecessary stand if we were to adopt a the 'lifetime' scholarship process (if caring for the student is the concern).  That way they can have the path to a degree available but also achieve their dreams like any other college bball player (i.e. I think Lazar was thrown out as an example).

Now I'm not advocating taking a risk so often that you blow the APR score, but I think it is really silly to say you won't recruit a JUCO that can't finish but will recruit someone in the top 5 that has indicated he will likely not be a 4 year player.  I guess it makes the administration 'feel better' but it sure seems like a technicality to me.

Buzz may have pushed the bounds of the risk taking here -- but seems like an over-correction to act as if we own some sort of false moral high-ground. 

Couldn't agree more.

[6746jonesr]

As has been said a number of times in this thread, but some folks don';t seem to understand, no one is one and done until they leave the University after 1 year.  So, there is a big difference between a juco who cannot graduate in two years, and someone who chooses to leave marquette after playing one season.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

As has been said a number of times in this thread, but some folks don';t seem to understand, no one is one and done until they leave the University after 1 year.  So, there is a big difference between a juco who cannot graduate in two years, and someone who chooses to leave marquette after playing one season.

To be clear I understand it perfectly - its not an unclear statement nor hard to grasp.  

I just don't agree that the difference is as great as what it is being made out to be.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I just don't agree that the difference is as great as what it is being made out to be.

The difference is that a student going pro is on the student. Admitting someone who cannot graduate is on the university.

May seem small to us but its an important distinction to university administrators.

[MUfan12]

Buzz may have pushed the bounds of the risk taking here -- but seems like an over-correction to act as if we own some sort of false moral high-ground. 

And there was definitely an element of that when the decision was made.

[River rat]

"to act as if we own some sort of false moral high-ground. "

sounds like chicos in about 19800 of his posts