Last Scholarship May Go To........a Juco?

[wadesworld]

I don't get what the big deal is with taking extra time to graduate.  There are tons of people, student-athletes and non student-athletes, who take more than 4 years to graduate.  No big deal if you ask me.

[radome]

No hate on JUCO's. Lots of big time players at MU came from JUCO's. Not sure about all of these:
Butler, DJO, Crowder, Mike Flory, Benny Moore, and even going back to Al, (I believe) Whitehead, Lackey, Tatum?, and likely several I missed.

Sam Worthen!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Translation:
Crean jucos sucked but acceptable
Buzz jucos really good but squirmy
It all comes back to the same agenda

Funny, you said you don't desciminate (sic) yesterday against players.......

[River rat]

Pretty sad.  Like keefe says u take pot shots n then run.  U state there are numerous illustrations that we have seen of why jucos are bad and leave it at that.  U state jucos are bad for continuity yet we hit 2 sweet 16s and an elite 8?  I say as long as the young men are graduating, representing the university well, and winning ball games i have no problem with wojo going after them.  Same standard i have for high school kids, again i stated those are my beliefs n i think most fans would be in agreement.  You then bring up the administration and cell phone spelling errors?

[esotericmindguy]

I don't get what the big deal is with taking extra time to graduate.  There are tons of people, student-athletes and non student-athletes, who take more than 4 years to graduate.  No big deal if you ask me.

No kidding, Marquette accepts kids through various programs like FFP, EOP, etc. and the high majority will never market the university like basketball players. There's a reason the MBB coach is the highest paid employee of the University, they put the school on the map. As long as the kids go to a reputable high school/juco, don't cause trouble, get the minimum grade requirements and can put that ball in the basket I'm straight. It's very similar to the Badger football team, that's the school's bread and butter and then bend the rules for kids who can play.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't get what the big deal is with taking extra time to graduate.  There are tons of people, student-athletes and non student-athletes, who take more than 4 years to graduate.  No big deal if you ask me.

Because data shows that men's basketball and football student athletes who don't graduate during their eligibility tend to not graduate. It is also impossible for many of the players to afford a Marquette education without their athletic scholarships.

It also goes back to mission/values. If you take a kid who you know won't be able to graduate from your university during their eligibility because they are athletically gifted, it seems to indicate that you value the athlete part of student athlete more than the student part. That may be true for many universities but its not how it should be.

[Lennys Tap]

Because data shows that men's basketball and football student athletes who don't graduate during their eligibility tend to not graduate. It is also impossible for many of the players to afford a Marquette education without their athletic scholarships.

It also goes back to mission/values. If you take a kid who you know won't be able to graduate from your university during their eligibility because they are athletically gifted, it seems to indicate that you value the athlete part of student athlete more than the student part. That may be true for many universities but its not how it should be.

Guess we shouldn't take really good players who might leave early, then.

[wadesworld]

I thought I remember hearing that someone (maybe Trend Blackledge?) was still taking classes and the school was able to find away to help with the cost of education after he had completed his basketball eligibility/didn't have a full ride for basketball.  Maybe my memory fails me.

[MUfan12]

I thought I remember hearing that someone (maybe Trend Blackledge?) was still taking classes and the school was able to find away to help with the cost of education after he had completed his basketball eligibility/didn't have a full ride for basketball.  Maybe my memory fails me.

Trend did it. Fulce did it. Jimmy did it during the lockout. All took a little extra time, but got their degrees.

Buycks was close, then got the Euro call. Jae was at least a full year away.

Non-JUCO player Lazar Hayward never finished.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Guess we shouldn't take really good players who might leave early, then.

You can't predict that accurately. I could have told you (as could have any college admissions professional) with 100% certainty that Jae Crowder will not graduate from Marquette before his eligibility runs out.

I really don't think its that unreasonable of an expectation. We have admissions standards at our university, everyone should have to abide by them. No special treatment just because of athletic ability....at least, we need to appear that way.

[wadesworld]

You can't predict that accurately. I could have told you (as could have any college admissions professional) with 100% certainty that Jae Crowder will not graduate from Marquette before his eligibility runs out.

I really don't think its that unreasonable of an expectation. We have admissions standards at our university, everyone should have to abide by them. No special treatment just because of athletic ability....at least, we need to appear that way.

I was never, ever told that I could only use 4 years to complete my degree.

[River rat]

You can't predict that accurately. I could have told you (as could have any college admissions professional) with 100% certainty that Jae Crowder will not graduate from Marquette before his eligibility runs out.

I really don't think its that unreasonable of an expectation. We have admissions standards at our university, everyone should have to abide by them. No special treatment just because of athletic ability....at least, we need to appear that way.

Probably about the same certainty that henry Elennson leaves before graduating too.  You are really making a silly argument.  Some high school kids do things that embarrass the university,  some high school kids prove to not be good collge players, some high school players dont graduate from college.  The exact same things can be said of JUCO kids.  Additionally JUCO kids have no more destabilizing factor to a program than high school kids that come in and transfer.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

You can't predict that accurately. I could have told you (as could have any college admissions professional) with 100% certainty that Jae Crowder will not graduate from Marquette before his eligibility runs out.

I really don't think its that unreasonable of an expectation. We have admissions standards at our university, everyone should have to abide by them. No special treatment just because of athletic ability....at least, we need to appear that way.

Everyone could have, because it would be impossible to earn enough credits in the time allotted...unless he was going to take 30 hours a semester.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pretty sad.  Like keefe says u take pot shots n then run.  U state there are numerous illustrations that we have seen of why jucos are bad and leave it at that.  U state jucos are bad for continuity yet we hit 2 sweet 16s and an elite 8?  I say as long as the young men are graduating, representing the university well, and winning ball games i have no problem with wojo going after them.  Same standard i have for high school kids, again i stated those are my beliefs n i think most fans would be in agreement.  You then bring up the administration and cell phone spelling errors?

Keefe said this....point it out.  I'm not running from anything.  Do you have the only cell phone left in America that doesn't autofill corrections?

Why do you think most of the top programs in the country go after high school kids?  I'm just curious considering a quality JUCO is a more proven commodity than a quality high school kid.  A JUCO is very unlikely to transfer (unless he plays for Buzz), a JUCO has played against solid competition, a high school kid may be highly regarded but against weak competition and never adjusts.  Why, then, do the better programs in the country shy away from JUCO players? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I was never, ever told that I could only use 4 years to complete my degree.

Not what I said. But if you think about it, all students are accepted with the possibility of graduating in four years. Jae was accepted despite it being impossible for him to graduate in four years. There is a difference. There's a reason you don't see many people transfer into Marquette from a community college.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Probably about the same certainty that henry Elennson leaves before graduating too.  You are really making a silly argument.  Some high school kids do things that embarrass the university,  some high school kids prove to not be good collge players, some high school players dont graduate from college.  The exact same things can be said of JUCO kids.  Additionally JUCO kids have no more destabilizing factor to a program than high school kids that come in and transfer.  

I don't know exactly what you are trying to say here. Let me try to simplify my point. It was physically impossible for Jae to graduate before his eligibility ran out. No matter what classes Jae took, university policy kept him from taking enough credits in order to earn his degree before his eligibility ran out. The university decided after Jae "it must be at least physically possible for all future recruits to graduate before their eligibility runs out." Seems like a reasonable policy to me.

There is a huge difference between a kid like Henry (or Burton, or JFB, or insert player here) who might not finish his degree on time and a kid like Jae who had a 0% chance of finishing his degree on time.

[The Equalizer]

Truly a horrid post.  Who has illustrated the negatives of two year jucos?  When n where? Additionally we have had very few of them anyway and one of our last was the BE POY and is currently in the NBA.  Lastly, you need to qualify more things as your opinion, as opposed to stating then like facts.  I personally and i guarantee others would not care if the team is 80% jucos.  That is completely up to wojo, as long as the players represent the school well and win basketball games the wojo is fine with me.  I will not descriminate against a young mzn solely due to his background. Pathetic

First, a correction, MU's most recent JUCO recruit came off North Texas' bench last year, scoring 7 ppg.

More importantly, however, the reasons against JUCOs have been documented here.

For example, here's analysis dating back five years that analyzed all Big East JUCOs over the prior five year period which showed that on average, JUCO performance was worse compared to Top 100 HS recruits.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/10/jucos-in-big-east.html

If you look at JUCOs objectively, the arguments are:
a) they statistically are less likely to perform at the level of top 100 HS players
b) they are typically only around two years, which increases the risk of continuity issues, and requires double the recruiting budget, time and effort to keep a scholarship filled over any given four-year period.
c) they are statistically less likely to graduate, which reflects poorly on the school

Your opinion is that we should ignore these facts because sometimes a JUCO performs well enough to both graduate and justify the extra recruiting and added continuity risk (as was the case with some of Buzz's recruits). 

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but that's all it is. 

[River rat]

First, a correction, MU's most recent JUCO recruit came off North Texas' bench last year, scoring 7 ppg.

More importantly, however, the reasons against JUCOs have been documented here.

For example, here's analysis dating back five years that analyzed all Big East JUCOs over the prior five year period which showed that on average, JUCO performance was worse compared to Top 100 HS recruits.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/10/jucos-in-big-east.html

If you look at JUCOs objectively, the arguments are:
a) they statistically are less likely to perform at the level of top 100 HS players
b) they are typically only around two years, which increases the risk of continuity issues, and requires double the recruiting budget, time and effort to keep a scholarship filled over any given four-year period.
c) they are statistically less likely to graduate, which reflects poorly on the school

Your opinion is that we should ignore these facts because sometimes a JUCO performs well enough to both graduate and justify the extra recruiting and added continuity risk (as was the case with some of Buzz's recruits). 

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but that's all it is. 

Well comments as u state are complete stereotypes and u are lumping all jucos into the avergae.  Maybe just maybe mu has and will continue to not recruit all jucos or the avg juco as your number state but will indeed continue to only go after those that pass certain criteria

In fact ur comments...
For example, here's analysis dating back five years that analyzed all Big East JUCOs over the prior five year period which showed that on average, JUCO performance was worse compared to Top 100 HS recruits.

Well that definitely hasnt been the case at mu has it?

Additionally ur objective general averges have not held tru at mu
They have been the best players n they have graduated and we have had a ton of hs kids transfer after a year or two
Maybe just maybe buzz n now wojo know what the heck they are doing and ur generalized juco stats that consider players at lesser institution hardly reflect what is going on at mu

[bilsu]

It was not physically impossible for Jae to get a degree before his eligibility ran out. He could of gotten hurt and redshirted a year. It should not be a question on whether the player is going to graduate, it should be a question of whether he can do the normal class work. I suspect the percentage of incoming freshmen that end up not graduating at MU (maybe elsewhere) is significantly high. If you are basing the admissions on the probability that a student is going to graduate you would not admit anyone that did not have a parent that went to college.

[willie warrior]

Sam Worthen!

Oh yeah!! He was a stud.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well comments as u state are complete stereotypes and u are lumping all jucos into the avergae.  Maybe just maybe mu has and will continue to not recruit all jucos or the avg juco as your number state but will indeed continue to only go after those that pass certain criteria

In fact ur comments...
For example, here's analysis dating back five years that analyzed all Big East JUCOs over the prior five year period which showed that on average, JUCO performance was worse compared to Top 100 HS recruits.

Well that definitely hasnt been the case at mu has it?

Additionally ur objective general averges have not held tru at mu
They have been the best players n they have graduated and we have had a ton of hs kids transfer after a year or two
Maybe just maybe buzz n now wojo know what the heck they are doing and ur generalized juco stats that consider players at lesser institution hardly reflect what is going on at mu

Painful.  For an iPhone, go into settings>general>keyboard   If you have an Android, go to settings and then select language and input.  Might be different depending on what Android version you have.


I'll ask again, why is it that most of the best programs go after high school kids and OCCASIONALLY may take 1 or 2 JUCOs?  OCCASSIONALLY!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It was not physically impossible for Jae to get a degree before his eligibility ran out. He could of gotten hurt and redshirted a year.

If Jae redshirted, then there would have been no issue. But he didn't.

It should not be a question on whether the player is going to graduate, it should be a question of whether he can do the normal class work. I suspect the percentage of incoming freshmen that end up not graduating at MU (maybe elsewhere) is significantly high. If you are basing the admissions on the probability that a student is going to graduate you would not admit anyone that did not have a parent that went to college.

Again, it is not about how likely the student is to graduate. It's about is it physically possible for the student to complete enough credit hours to graduate before his eligibility runs out? In Jaes case, the answer was no....Unless he redshirtted, which he should have

[Lennys Tap]

You can't predict that accurately. I could have told you (as could have any college admissions professional) with 100% certainty that Jae Crowder will not graduate from Marquette before his eligibility runs out?

Yes you can. I could have told you last year with a very high degree of certainty that, for example, Jabari Parker, Andre Wiggins and Noah Vonleh (among others) wouldn't play for 4 years. As a matter of fact, I would have borrowed money (after I bet all of mine) to bet you that none of those guys would be in college as long or come as close to graduating as Jae Crowder did.

[Galway Eagle]

Yes you can. I could have told you last year with a very high degree of certainty that, for example, Jabari Parker, Andre Wiggins and Noah Vonleh (among others) wouldn't play for 4 years. As a matter of fact, I would have borrowed money (after I bet all of mine) to bet you that none of those guys would be in college as long or come as close to graduating as Jae Crowder did.

But at the same time Kentucky's current backup of mcdonalds all Americans shows us that plenty of those you'd expect to be one and done could end up staying a little extra time.

[The Equalizer]

Well comments as u state are complete stereotypes and u are lumping all jucos into the avergae.  Maybe just maybe mu has and will continue to not recruit all jucos or the avg juco as your number state but will indeed continue to only go after those that pass certain criteria

In fact ur comments...
For example, here's analysis dating back five years that analyzed all Big East JUCOs over the prior five year period which showed that on average, JUCO performance was worse compared to Top 100 HS recruits.

Well that definitely hasnt been the case at mu has it?

Additionally ur objective general averges have not held tru at mu
They have been the best players n they have graduated and we have had a ton of hs kids transfer after a year or two
Maybe just maybe buzz n now wojo know what the heck they are doing and ur generalized juco stats that consider players at lesser institution hardly reflect what is going on at mu

Well if this your logic, if a coach has the power of evaluation to predict the top performing JUCOs and avoid the average and below average, why wouldn't he just use that same capability and pick the best performing HS players and avoid the average and below average?