Another Theory Bites the Dust - Buzz and his "Maniacal" Substitutions Last Year

[MU82]

He should've adapted, and that's a fair critique... but I don't think he went from an amazing coach to a terrible coach. His moves worked out in previous years. Last year, they didn't. It happens.

On this, we can agree 100%.

Buzz was never a great coach. He certainly was never a bad coach. For the most part, he did a good to very good job and gave us some fun teams to watch.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

On this, we can agree 100%.

Buzz was never a great coach. He certainly was never a bad coach. For the most part, he did a good to very good job and gave us some fun teams to watch.

Ya, totally fair.

I'm just fighting against the "canonization" and then "villainization" of Buzz Williams.

Same guy. Same moves.

[Golden Avalanche]

Ya, totally fair.

I'm just fighting against the "canonization" and then "villainization" of Buzz Williams.

Same guy. Same moves.

Well, considering this fanbase has done so well regarding the bolded and Tom Crean your job will be easy with Buzz.

[Lennys Tap]

On this, we can agree 100%.

Buzz was never a great coach. He certainly was never a bad coach. For the most part, he did a good to very good job and gave us some fun teams to watch.

Only a select few are "great". Right now Buzz is the second best in Marquette history behind our one great coach, Al McGuire. Let's hope Wojo moves him down to third.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Only a select few are "great". Right now Buzz is the second best in Marquette history behind our one great coach, Al McGuire. Let's hope Wojo moves him down to third.

LOL

[ChicosBailBonds]

LOL. There's been a lot of debate here about just what happened last season. Some of it's been angry and heated, but not once have I heard anyone on either side cop a whiny, I'm a victim, it's not what I said, you're picking on me attitude. That's been your exclusive province and it knows no corollary.

No Lenny, no one here feels like they are picked on, least of all me.  My point has always been, the username of the person stating it automatically brings out a defense mechanism amongst some of the more immature here.  An easy test can be done to prove this out and has taken place.  Many here have validated the hypothesis.

So you are wrong sir....it's not the debate or the context, but often who mentions one of the items of the debate.  If someone else said the exact same thing, totally different reaction. 

Have a wonderful day.

[Galway Eagle]

LOL

I'm confused as to why this is a lol. I fully expect you to argue for crean but just curious for an explanation as to what makes either Raymonds, Oneil, deane, or crean better than Buzz.  Personally I review great as sustained success in the tournament, consistent regular season winning, and getting guys to the NBA. (I'm sure there are more ways you can think of that I'll be open to hearing). 

[bilsu]

This has nothing to do with Buzz, but I do not understand why a coach takes a player out who just scored the basket?

[tower912]

A fine tradition starting under Mike Deane.   Of course, he also subbed out anybody who gave up a basket, particularly down low. 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

My guess is the frustration was not about the number of substitutions, but who was being substituted.   It's a corollary to the "its not what is said here, but who says the what."

It took you 23 minutes to try to make this thread all about you.  Good effort.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It took you 23 minutes to try to make this thread all about you.  Good effort.

Wasn't about me at all.

6 of your last 11 posts mention me, you seem to be in love.  Good effort, but I'm married happily.  Hoping the lets you down easy.

[MU82]

I'm confused as to why this is a lol. I fully expect you to argue for crean but just curious for an explanation as to what makes either Raymonds, Oneil, deane, or crean better than Buzz.  Personally I review great as sustained success in the tournament, consistent regular season winning, and getting guys to the NBA. (I'm sure there are more ways you can think of that I'll be open to hearing). 

I agree and would like to see Chico's answer.

Buzz had a better winning percentage even though his strength of schedule was much more difficult (7.88 vs. 6.39 using Sports Reference's ratings system), obviously because Buzz was in the Big East the whole time he was there.

Buzz appeared in 5 NCAAs in 6 years, Crean 5 in 9 years. Buzz was 8-5 in the NCAAs, Crean 5-5. Buzz had three tourney runs that got past the first weekend, Crean one.

Crean's crew made the 2003 Final Four, and I'll always be grateful for that. And yes, in my mind that might earn some extra "points" when comparing the two. But Buzz did go S16-S16-E8, the kind of sustained success that would make most coaches envious; Crean is among many peers that didn't accomplish that.

Even if I allow that it's close -- heck, even if I allow that Crean is slightly better on the back of the Final Four (I don't, but even if I did) -- it's certainly not "LOL" to suggest that Buzz had a better run at Marquette than Crean did.

Oh, and as an aside ...

Nobody over the age of 25 should use "LOL"!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree and would like to see Chico's answer.

Buzz had a better winning percentage even though his strength of schedule was much more difficult (7.88 vs. 6.39 using Sports Reference's ratings system), obviously because Buzz was in the Big East the whole time he was there.

Buzz appeared in 5 NCAAs in 6 years, Crean 5 in 9 years. Buzz was 8-5 in the NCAAs, Crean 5-5. Buzz had three tourney runs that got past the first weekend, Crean one.

Crean's crew made the 2003 Final Four, and I'll always be grateful for that. And yes, in my mind that might earn some extra "points" when comparing the two. But Buzz did go S16-S16-E8, the kind of sustained success that would make most coaches envious; Crean is among many peers that didn't accomplish that.

Even if I allow that it's close -- heck, even if I allow that Crean is slightly better on the back of the Final Four (I don't, but even if I did) -- it's certainly not "LOL" to suggest that Buzz had a better run at Marquette than Crean did.

Oh, and as an aside ...

Nobody over the age of 25 should use "LOL"!

I'm 25 and use lol regularly 

My guess is that Chico's argument would be that Buzz had a much better starting point than Crean. I think he would also argue that Crean was less squirmy.

They're are legit arguments. Personally I would rank Buzz as number 2 and Crean as number 3. With Al being the far and away number 1 and KO being close to Crean.

[mileskishnish72]

Well, one thing's for sure - Buzz's substitution pattern and personnel usage were not affected at all by his concern for "next year."

[Marqevans]

I really think Buzz's problem was he had the most talented bench he ever had and didn't know how to deal with it. 

[Nevada233]

Same story different year (thank god its the last year).... Derrick Wilson = Good Kid........ Just Not a good Basketball player period...

[mu03eng]

I really think Buzz's problem was he had the most talented bench he ever had and didn't know how to deal with it. 

I think this is going to be the most interesting thing about this season....we will find out for sure if there was talent on the bench.  Wojo has no choice but to play the players Buzz wouldn't.

[mu03eng]

I'm 25 and use lol regularly 

My guess is that Chico's argument would be that Buzz had a much better starting point than Crean. I think he would also argue that Crean was less squirmy.

They're are legit arguments. Personally I would rank Buzz as number 2 and Crean as number 3. With Al being the far and away number 1 and KO being close to Crean.

I think this is a good discussion and one I struggle with.  Crean was the right coach at the time just like Buzz was the right coach at the time and I believe Wojo to be the right coach at the time.

When Crean came in, we needed to be rebuilt and enthusiasm generated, something a used car salesman is pretty good at.  There wasn't much downside risk and only upside potential.  Once Crean left we needed a legitimate basketball coach who could take the team to another level which Buzz was able to do. 

Buzz for all his faults was able to sustain the enthusiasm with his quirk while recruiting some very talented players that he was able to coach up.  I also think Buzz was able to recognize a trend in basketball before others did that he exploited, but others have since caught up.  I think Buzz is a supernova, burns white hot for a while but burns everyone out pretty quick.  We had some downside risk, but could take a chance to sustain success to build a platform for the next coach.

Now in comes Wojo, who likely is here for 5-8 years of sustained success with tremendous potential to take the school back to the Final Four.  At least on the surface he seems the steadiest of the coaches in 30 years, and will likely provide a steady climb for the team, we shouldn't see a lot of dramatic swings.

Each coach really was the coach for their time, so how do you rank them?  Having said that, I would put Buzz ahead of Crean simply because with Buzz we can eliminate a "flash in the pan" or single player as the reason for his success unlike a somewhat legitimate argument against Crean.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think this is a good discussion and one I struggle with.  Crean was the right coach at the time just like Buzz was the right coach at the time and I believe Wojo to be the right coach at the time.

When Crean came in, we needed to be rebuilt and enthusiasm generated, something a used car salesman is pretty good at.  There wasn't much downside risk and only upside potential.  Once Crean left we needed a legitimate basketball coach who could take the team to another level which Buzz was able to do. 

Buzz for all his faults was able to sustain the enthusiasm with his quirk while recruiting some very talented players that he was able to coach up.  I also think Buzz was able to recognize a trend in basketball before others did that he exploited, but others have since caught up.  I think Buzz is a supernova, burns white hot for a while but burns everyone out pretty quick.  We had some downside risk, but could take a chance to sustain success to build a platform for the next coach.

Now in comes Wojo, who likely is here for 5-8 years of sustained success with tremendous potential to take the school back to the Final Four.  At least on the surface he seems the steadiest of the coaches in 30 years, and will likely provide a steady climb for the team, we shouldn't see a lot of dramatic swings.

Each coach really was the coach for their time, so how do you rank them?  Having said that, I would put Buzz ahead of Crean simply because with Buzz we can eliminate a "flash in the pan" or single player as the reason for his success unlike a somewhat legitimate argument against Crean.

I was on campus for Deane & Crean, and while I understand why people don't like Tom now, I can tell you he was a HUGE help to the program.

I know that sounds like hyperbole, but I can tell you that students were absolutely apathetic about the program, we always showed up late for games, (if we showed up at all). I watched powerhouse programs like UNC-Charlotte run MU off of the floor. It was embarrassing. There wasn't a lot of pride or ownership in the program from the students.
Road games were rarely televised. The players were overmatched, and the students who actually were fans of the program dreamed about the NIT, not the NCAA. We thought 16K for a game looked "full". 

Crean is a salesman, and he correctly identified that he needed better talent and better student support. If you go back and look at what the guy did, it's very smart. He went waaaay out of his way to include students. He greeted people around campus, he bought pizza for students at a road games, he delivered doughnuts, he shook hands in the dorm lobbies, etc. etc. etc. He marketed the hell out of himself and the program. It was stuff Deane and KO never dreamed of doing (or wanted to do quite frankly).

So, while Crean has earned his fair share of criticism, (we all know what they are) I can tell you, first hand, that the guy did a GREAT job breathing some life into MU hoops. He had big picture perspective for MU, and he pushed and pushed and took MU to places it hadn't been in a loooong time.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I was on campus for Deane & Crean, and while I understand why people don't like Tom now, I can tell you he was a HUGE help to the program.

I know that sounds like hyperbole, but I can tell you that students were absolutely apathetic about the program, we always showed up late for games, (if we showed up at all). I watched powerhouse programs like UNC-Charlotte run MU off of the floor. It was embarrassing. There wasn't a lot of pride or ownership in the program from the students.
Road games were rarely televised. The players were overmatched, and the students who actually were fans of the program dreamed about the NIT, not the NCAA. We thought 16K for a game looked "full". 

Crean is a salesman, and he correctly identified that he needed better talent and better student support. If you go back and look at what the guy did, it's very smart. He went waaaay out of his way to include students. He greeted people around campus, he bought pizza for students at a road games, he delivered doughnuts, he shook hands in the dorm lobbies, etc. etc. etc. He marketed the hell out of himself and the program. It was stuff Deane and KO never dreamed of doing (or wanted to do quite frankly).

So, while Crean has earned his fair share of criticism, (we all know what they are) I can tell you, first hand, that the guy did a GREAT job breathing some life into MU hoops. He had big picture perspective for MU, and he pushed and pushed and took MU to places it hadn't been in a loooong time.

That's why I lobbied so hard with the administration to change the student ticketing to first come, first serve.  We were able to do that before I left.  It took about a year of meetings with students, administration, Bradley Center, etc, etc.  Students not showing up, gaping holes in their sections, etc.  It was controversial, but we got it pushed through.  As a result, you now have kids showing up at 5:00am for a weekend game and they get the best seats.  Proud that we changed that, and thrilled the juniors and seniors took a bit of sacrifice and did what was ultimately best for the program and the environment to give up their allocated seats and fight for them game day like everyone else.

Crean would do anything I asked of him around excitement in the program.  Anything.  As you correctly state, that wasn't always the case with others.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm 25 and use lol regularly 

My guess is that Chico's argument would be that Buzz had a much better starting point than Crean. I think he would also argue that Crean was less squirmy.

They're are legit arguments. Personally I would rank Buzz as number 2 and Crean as number 3. With Al being the far and away number 1 and KO being close to Crean.

I'll let you guys figure this out.  For the #2 coach in Marquette history to just walk out the door, not be saved and to go to powerhouse Virginia Tech (when the supposedly less heralded coaches at MU went to Tennessee, Indiana, etc) should tell you everything you need to know.

Too many people here look only at W's and L's, not at what else was going on, what their starting points were, incidents off the court, etc.  It's a whole package.

It's pretty amazing that the supposed #2 coach in MU history, a history that is very rich, would just be able to walk away and land such a prestigious coaching job.....unless one takes off the beer goggles and examines the entirety of the situation.  Of course, too many people don't have the information to do that, or those that do and just don't care and subscribe to the JUST WIN BABY attitude.

There's a reason why the "#2 coach in MU history" isn't at MU any longer and is in Blacksburg, VA. 

[NersEllenson]

That's why I lobbied so hard with the administration to change the student ticketing to first come, first serve.  We were able to do that before I left.  It took about a year of meetings with students, administration, Bradley Center, etc, etc.  Students not showing up, gaping holes in their sections, etc.  It was controversial, but we got it pushed through.  As a result, you now have kids showing up at 5:00am for a weekend game and they get the best seats.  Proud that we changed that, and thrilled the juniors and seniors took a bit of sacrifice and did what was ultimately best for the program and the environment to give up their allocated seats and fight for them game day like everyone else.

Crean would do anything I asked of him around excitement in the program.  Anything.  As you correctly state, that wasn't always the case with others.

Did that include fellatio in the athletic department offices? 

[Lennys Tap]

There's a reason why the "#2 coach in MU history" isn't at MU any longer and is in Blacksburg, VA. 

Thanks for acknowledging that the #2 coach in MU history is in Blacksburg, VA.. Marquette fans everywhere agree!

[Tums Festival]

So, Buzz substituted "at the maniacal end of the scale" in 2012-13 and in 2013-14, and in the former case it lead to a NCAA elite eight berth while in the later case it led to a team missing both the NCAA and the NIT.  With such divergent results, how can labeling his substitution frequency as "at the maniacal end of the scale" have any meaning at all?

"Maniacal end of the scale" refers to the fact Brent substituted more frequently per game than the NCAA average. How you take that as a comment on the team's performance I don't know.

[WarriorInNYC]

I'll let you guys figure this out.  For the #2 coach in Marquette history to just walk out the door, not be saved and to go to powerhouse Virginia Tech (when the supposedly less heralded coaches at MU went to Tennessee, Indiana, etc) should tell you everything you need to know.

Too many people here look only at W's and L's, not at what else was going on, what their starting points were, incidents off the court, etc.  It's a whole package.

It's pretty amazing that the supposed #2 coach in MU history, a history that is very rich, would just be able to walk away and land such a prestigious coaching job.....unless one takes off the beer goggles and examines the entirety of the situation.  Of course, too many people don't have the information to do that, or those that do and just don't care and subscribe to the JUST WIN BABY attitude.

There's a reason why the "#2 coach in MU history" isn't at MU any longer and is in Blacksburg, VA. 

I think the bigger issue people had with your statement Chico's, is that your response was "LOL", as in, how could that even be considered.

I could hear an argument for TC as the #2 coach in MU history.  I personally probably think Buzz is, but I can understand arguments against him.  In no way is considering Buzz the #2 coach, a laughable item that does not warrant any consideration.