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Author Topic: Jajuan J breakout  (Read 48632 times)

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2014, 01:45:39 AM »
Yes, really. And not percentages that are cherry picked. I watched Derrick and John's OVERALL play last year and concluded that Derrick deserved to play more than John. Your conclusion was that only an idiot or a guy who was intentionally throwing games could say or do that. I thought that when Wojo watched the tape and saw them in practice he would agree with me. You laughed, mocked me and said no way. Buzz was the worst coach ever, Wojo wouldn't/couldn't be that stupid. Fast forward 6 months - Wojo names Derrick captain and will (barring injury) play him solid minutes, even with newbies Matt Carlino and Duane Wilson available. John looks like the last guard off the bench and may be moved to the 2/3 because HE CAN'T PLAY THE POINT. But Buzz is an idiot, Wojo's an idiot and I'm an idiot. Because you say so. Fine, this percentage guy (or idiot, take your pick) will let you out of our wager for, say, 475. Interested?

LOL - Cherry picked stats??  Those aren't cherry picked.  They are reality.  As was the reality that your boy, Buzz, said the team was playing 4 on 5 as a result.  As for Dawson, he may be moved to the 2 or 3..because he CAN SHOOT THE BALL. Derrick?  There's only 1 spot for him, and that sure as hell isn't at a shooting guard position. Hell PG is a HUGE stretch for Derrick...he's not a playmaker, can't break a defender down off the dribble, and actually isn't very strong with the ball against tight ball pressure.   He'll get his chance, but if he plays anything like last year...I guaran-god-damn tee you he won't be getting 30 minutes a game.

And if I were you, I wouldn't make judgments on a basketball player who is getting radically inconsistent minutes, yet with the minutes he does get, most of them are in 2 to 3 minute segments.  I can form plenty of judgments on a guy who got 30 minutes a game night in, night out...and the proof is in the "production."  It was AWFUL.  It won't take much at all for Derrick to improve on last year's campaign...hopefully his hard work pays off for him. To improve on the 3 point shooting percentage and FT percentage shouldn't take much...the key will be if he can stick wide open perimeter jump shots, is willing to take them, and make at least 35% of them to prove he needs to be defended by the opposition.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #151 on: October 30, 2014, 01:49:29 AM »
I'm sorry but this is really the height of hyperbolic stupidity. The worst coaching performance in 30 years?  Because he wouldn't play John Dawson or JJJ?  

Cmon. You are smarter than this. You can disagree with Buzz but it isn't completely unheard of for a coach to go with experience over highly rated, but seemingly over matched talent.

No..it really isn't hyperbole...and many other guys who have played the game and been close to it felt the exact same.  It was the worst, because Buzz refused to even try the alternatives at the two positions that were clearly the achilles heel on the team - yet the ONE game he deviated and tried the alternative - he got good results, and the player played a key role in getting the win.  Thereafter?  The player got scraps, and meanwhile the vet in front of him continued to flounder, and flounder big time.

Beyond that, the crazy substitutions, no clearly defined roles, having to resort to construction paper cards to get the guys to know what defense they were in - all kinds of chaos last season.  Not to mention he totally, and completely lost the team.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #152 on: October 30, 2014, 09:15:47 AM »
We'll never know if Buzz was right last season or not. 17-15 could have been 12-20, close losses could have been blowouts. We'll never know, but I'm a percentage guy. If the armchair quarterbacks and second guessed were consistently wrong and the coach was consistently right for several years I think chances are last year was no different.

Big picture: Buzz received bad play from both guard positions.

I actually like Derrick and Jake, but they needed to be mixed and matched to maximize their abilities.

By the time Feb. hit, Buzz did not have options (which you and I agree on)... but I think it's fair to say that Buzz needed to find SOMETHING to help those guys earlier in the year. As soon as Du Wilson went down, Buzz needed to find some way to keep Derrick's minutes down.

Again, I'm not saying "Play (insert guy) instead of (insert guy)", I'm saying from a big picture perspective, trotting Derrick out there for 30+MPG wasn't a good long term plan. Buzz should have known that back in Oct., and figured out a way to help Derrick.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #153 on: October 30, 2014, 09:20:25 AM »
Last year was the worst coaching performance I've ever witnessed in 30 years of being an avid basketball fan. 

Dude, we were all finding common ground, and then you trot out with this statement?

C'mon.

Don't do that.

JakeBarnes

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #154 on: October 30, 2014, 09:36:36 AM »
Just curious given the amount of pages in this thread: has JJJ broken out yet?
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


GGGG

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #155 on: October 30, 2014, 09:37:43 AM »
LOL - Cherry picked stats??  Those aren't cherry picked.  They are reality.  As was the reality that your boy, Buzz, said the team was playing 4 on 5 as a result.  As for Dawson, he may be moved to the 2 or 3..because he CAN SHOOT THE BALL.


Dawson was a worse offensive player than Derrick was last year.

Dawson OR:  85.2
Derrick OR:  96.0

GGGG

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #156 on: October 30, 2014, 09:38:43 AM »
No..it really isn't hyperbole...and many other guys who have played the game and been close to it felt the exact same.  It was the worst, because Buzz refused to even try the alternatives at the two positions that were clearly the achilles heel on the team - yet the ONE game he deviated and tried the alternative - he got good results, and the player played a key role in getting the win.  Thereafter?  The player got scraps, and meanwhile the vet in front of him continued to flounder, and flounder big time.

Beyond that, the crazy substitutions, no clearly defined roles, having to resort to construction paper cards to get the guys to know what defense they were in - all kinds of chaos last season.  Not to mention he totally, and completely lost the team.


I have no desire to join you in your craziness again this year.  "Worst coaching performance in 30 years?"  Complete hyperbolic nonsense.

And you are seriously bringing up the crazy substitutions *again* when you were shown to be objectively wrong about his substitution patterns from years prior?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 09:40:29 AM by The Sultan of Sunshine »

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #157 on: October 30, 2014, 10:24:30 AM »

Dawson was a worse offensive player than Derrick was last year.

Dawson OR:  85.2
Derrick OR:  96.0

And as was pointed out to you and the other 5 Derrick lovers, Pomroy doesn't even calculate an O-Rating for a player who plays less that 10 minutes in a game...in the 24 games Dawson did play he averaged 10.2 minutes....BARELY over the threshold for which Pomroy will assign an O-Rating.  Dawson played more than 10 minutes in 11 games last year.  And if you look at his O-Rating in games he played more than 12 minutes..his O-Rating was ~98.  I did all the math on it last year, and am not going to do it all over again.  The point is one guy is flat out a 96 O-Rating with consistent minutes, 30+ every damn night....and that's what he is...the other guy...there is virtually no statistical relevance to his O-rating as his playing time was so minimal - yet the one game he gets a fair chance, 30 minutes...he plays very well..


I have no desire to join you in your craziness again this year.  "Worst coaching performance in 30 years?"  Complete hyperbolic nonsense.

And you are seriously bringing up the crazy substitutions *again* when you were shown to be objectively wrong about his substitution patterns from years prior?

It is not complete hyperbolic nonsense.  For a team that was picked to win its conference...with more returning letterwinners on it, with a few talented freshman - to miss the NIT??  Yea, that was a pretty big bomb we had last year - and Buzz refused to make the 2 obvious adjustments that team needed to improve.

The problem with Buzz's subbing, was he was still subbing a crap ton, as you pointed out - yet he wouldn't sub out the 2 culprits!!  Which is what made it even more awful.  For the last time...how do you expect to win with a lineup of Derrick and Jake getting max minutes together????????????
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

GGGG

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #158 on: October 30, 2014, 10:27:48 AM »
And as was pointed out to you and the other 5 Derrick lovers, Pomroy doesn't even calculate an O-Rating for a player who plays less that 10 minutes in a game...in the 24 games Dawson did play he averaged 10.2 minutes....BARELY over the threshold for which Pomroy will assign an O-Rating.  Dawson played more than 10 minutes in 11 games last year.  And if you look at his O-Rating in games he played more than 12 minutes..his O-Rating was ~98.  I did all the math on it last year, and am not going to do it all over again.  The point is one guy is flat out a 96 O-Rating with consistent minutes, 30+ every damn night....and that's what he is...the other guy...there is virtually no statistical relevance to his O-rating as his playing time was so minimal - yet the one game he gets a fair chance, 30 minutes...he plays very well..


In other words, you are cherry picking stats.  Using only those to support your argument, and dumping on those that don't.

GGGG

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #159 on: October 30, 2014, 10:30:04 AM »
It is not complete hyperbolic nonsense.  For a team that was picked to win its conference...with more returning letterwinners on it, with a few talented freshman - to miss the NIT??  Yea, that was a pretty big bomb we had last year - and Buzz refused to make the 2 obvious adjustments that team needed to improve.


I'm not arguing he coached well.  I never have.  I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."

THAT is hyperbolic nonsense.  Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #160 on: October 30, 2014, 11:04:30 AM »
It is not complete hyperbolic nonsense.  For a team that was picked to win its conference...with more returning letterwinners on it, with a few talented freshman - to miss the NIT??  Yea, that was a pretty big bomb we had last year - and Buzz refused to make the 2 obvious adjustments that team needed to improve.
What were the two obvious adjustments again?

willie warrior

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #161 on: October 30, 2014, 11:09:05 AM »

I'm not arguing he coached well.  I never have.  I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."

THAT is hyperbolic nonsense.  Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.
So then you should be willing to say "Buzz coached poorly".
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WarriorInNYC

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #162 on: October 30, 2014, 11:12:07 AM »
Just curious given the amount of pages in this thread: has JJJ broken out yet?

Sometimes I click on the last page of a multi-page thread that I haven't read any of.  That last page is 99% one of two things:

1) Ners arguing with anyone and everyone about Derrick vs Dawson
2) Some kind of pissing match between Chico's and several others

Glad to see this is still on target

GGGG

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #163 on: October 30, 2014, 11:12:18 AM »
So then you should be willing to say "Buzz coached poorly".


I've said it before.  He did a lot of things poorly last year.  The biggest problem was the lack of quality depth, and his reliance on a former walk on and a offensively deficient player at point guard.  I also think Ners is spot on that Deonte should have gotten much more playing time.

But JJJ and John Dawson were *not* answers IMO.  Todd could have been an answer, but he was a complete f*ck up.  (Again, Buzz is the one that kept him around.)

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #164 on: October 30, 2014, 11:14:14 AM »

I'm not arguing he coached well.  I never have.  I am arguing that it wasn't the "worst coaching performance in 30 years."

THAT is hyperbolic nonsense.  Anybody who had to witness some of Bob Dukiet's performances would show that it wasn't even the worst Marquette coaching performance over the past 30 years.

Dukiet was awful, no one doubts that - the "talent" level he had was awful as well.  Buzz was in his 6th year on the job, had all of his guys, and had established himself.  We were Top 20 going into the year, fellow coaches in Big East saw us as being clear favorite to win the conference - not only did we not win it, we weren't even close.

The awful coaching was refusing to even ATTEMPT to make changes at the 1&2 - but instead to max their minutes and play them more than any other guys on the team.  NOt to mention starting them with Juan and Otule.  How the F was Jamil supposed to play well surrounded with that lineup?
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #165 on: October 30, 2014, 11:15:44 AM »
What were the two obvious adjustments again?

LOL - There were actually three obvious adjustments...
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #166 on: October 30, 2014, 11:18:24 AM »
Guys, we are one week away from the exhibition game. Two weeks away from the first game. Can we bring back the Derrick/Dawson/Jake/Crazy Substitutions/Worst Coaching Performance in 30 Years moratorium? Just for one week? Then we will have plenty of new data to dissect and argue about!
TAMU

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ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #167 on: October 30, 2014, 11:22:17 AM »
LOL - There were actually three obvious adjustments...
so what were they?

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #168 on: October 30, 2014, 11:26:57 AM »
so what were they?

Was this supposed to be in teal?  Think everyone here knows what my feelings are on the obvious adjustments...
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #169 on: October 30, 2014, 11:28:33 AM »
Guys, we are one week away from the exhibition game. Two weeks away from the first game. Can we bring back the Derrick/Dawson/Jake/Crazy Substitutions/Worst Coaching Performance in 30 Years moratorium? Just for one week? Then we will have plenty of new data to dissect and argue about!

That's fine...yet the board will go pretty dead if we don't debate those topics....once the season starts of course, we'll have more topics for discussion.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Galway Eagle

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #170 on: October 30, 2014, 11:30:25 AM »
Sometimes I click on the last page of a multi-page thread that I haven't read any of.  That last page is 99% one of two things:

1) Ners arguing with anyone and everyone about Derrick vs Dawson
2) Some kind of pissing match between Chico's and several others

Glad to see this is still on target

+100000000
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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #171 on: October 30, 2014, 11:33:47 AM »
Sometimes I click on the last page of a multi-page thread that I haven't read any of.  That last page is 99% one of two things:

1) Ners arguing with anyone and everyone about Derrick vs Dawson
2) Some kind of pissing match between Chico's and several others

Glad to see this is still on target

I believe this is now referred to as The Wade's World Law.

And, yes, I can't believe people are stilling letting themselves get sucked into the Derrick vs. Dawson "discussion".

On topic:  While I'd love to see JJJ make a huge stride forward, I'm not optimistic.   Hopefully I'm as wrong about this as I was about thinking Juan was due for a breakout last year moving to more of a perimeter position.
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NersEllenson

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #172 on: October 30, 2014, 11:37:44 AM »

In other words, you are cherry picking stats.  Using only those to support your argument, and dumping on those that don't.

I'm pointing out there is a statistical relevance to stats that are the result of 975 minutes of playing time...and a statistical irrelevance to stats that BARELY meet the threshold to even assign an O-Rating.  Dawson only played in 24 games, and of those 24, only 11 of them met the criteria to have an O-Rating assigned (where he played more than 10 minutes.)  

You yourself were shocked Dawson didn't get more PT after Georgetown game - as was I believe 90% of the fanbase.  Most reasonable people felt that he at least earned more than 8 minutes the next game...again..if the team were winning, improving etc...with Derrick getting 30+...fine...but it wasn't and there were no signs it was going to win if things didn't change.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #173 on: October 30, 2014, 11:38:17 AM »
That's fine...yet the board will go pretty dead if we don't debate those topics....once the season starts of course, we'll have more topics for discussion.

Maybe you could add your season predictions to that thread
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Jajuan J breakout
« Reply #174 on: October 30, 2014, 11:43:11 AM »
Guys, we are one week away from the exhibition game. Two weeks away from the first game. Can we bring back the Derrick/Dawson/Jake/Crazy Substitutions/Worst Coaching Performance in 30 Years moratorium? Just for one week? Then we will have plenty of new data to dissect and argue about!

That's fine...yet the board will go pretty dead if we don't debate those topics....once the season starts of course, we'll have more topics for discussion.

9 minutes later...

I'm pointing out there is a statistical relevance to stats that are the result of 975 minutes of playing time...and a statistical irrelevance to stats that BARELY meet the threshold to even assign an O-Rating.  Dawson only played in 24 games, and of those 24, only 11 of them met the criteria to have an O-Rating assigned (where he played more than 10 minutes.) 

You yourself were shocked Dawson didn't get more PT after Georgetown game - as was I believe 90% of the fanbase.  Most reasonable people felt that he at least earned more than 8 minutes the next game...again..if the team were winning, improving etc...with Derrick getting 30+...fine...but it wasn't and there were no signs it was going to win if things didn't change.

Sorry, just poking a little fun ;D
TAMU

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