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Author Topic: SLU Protest..  (Read 20885 times)

mu_hilltopper

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 07:24:23 PM »
Maybe it's just me but I feel like if keefe made this thread it'd be locked by now...

I hear you.   I was hoping we'd stay on point about the SLU protest story, and not slip into Fergusonmania.

Gato78

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 08:09:05 PM »
1. College campuses have traditionally been the place where social issues are protested. Wisconsin, Columbia and even Marquette in the '60's. Dean Meminger quit MU's basketball team for about 48 hours during a racial/Vietnam War protest at Marquette in 1969.
2. The FBI is damn good and will have the case done in a first rate manner--which the Ferguson police and St. Louis County cops cannot duplicate.
3. Big picture the forensics--pretty easy. Multiple deadly shots fired at an unarmed person. A police officer cannot use deadly force unless the officer has a reasonable belief that deadly force is about to be, or is actually being, used against the officer or in defense of others. So please, enough of the "forensics" arguments. Having tried hundreds of cases in my career, I can say unequivocally that no witness has the exact same perception of events observed as the others. That will never be determinative. What is determinative is the lack of firearm in the hands of the deceased while walking away from the officer after already being wounded.

brandx

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 08:21:25 PM »

2. The FBI is damn good and will have the case done in a first rate manner--which the Ferguson police and St. Louis County cops cannot duplicate.
 

Except the former officers and officials of the FBI employed by the NFL weren't smart enough to pick up a phone and call the casino to ask for the Ray Rice tape.

muwarrior69

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 08:46:55 PM »
I really, really hope that if the forensics show that the officer was justified, that some of the people who helped to lead the protests will work to keep things calm.  That's probably too much to ask.

I also hope that the Ferguson PD, as well as others, can learn from this how they can work to build greater trust within their communities so that the relationship isn't so adversarial.  That probably is also too much to ask.

My guess is that there will be no black and white answer.  Shades of gray that can be used to protest for and against, and by Fox, MSNBC and their ilk to support their agendas.

It will all be very depressing cause nothing will come of it.

What gets me is that Furgeson is 60+ percent black. They should change things by voting in those folks who they think will make their community represent them and hopefully better for all....but they have not.

WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 09:05:02 PM »
NO!  They should go to NFL games and hurl spit and racial invectives at innocent fans.

jesmu84

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2014, 09:08:08 PM »
NO!  They should go to NFL games and hurl spit and racial invectives at innocent fans.

http://deadspin.com/cardinals-fans-get-ugly-in-clash-with-ferguson-proteste-1643282285

Maybe more of a baseball crowd?

martyconlonontherun

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2014, 09:55:24 PM »
http://deadspin.com/cardinals-fans-get-ugly-in-clash-with-ferguson-proteste-1643282285

Maybe more of a baseball crowd?

Wow what a great combo of racist whites and protestors hurting their cause. The racists are explained in the link but waving an American flag upside down and saying you want someone dead is not the way to gain the American public hearts.

mu03eng

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2014, 08:12:40 AM »
To maybe steer this away from Locked Land, what would the expectations of the board be for President Lovell should something like this occur at MU?  Is the deal cut acceptable if it was above board, or is making a deal with "protesters" an issue in of itself?
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Henry Sugar

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2014, 08:25:48 AM »
I hear you.   I was hoping we'd stay on point about the SLU protest story, and not slip into Fergusonmania.

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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2014, 09:23:09 AM »
This.

As someone who has had a neighborhood "witness" brazenly lie to a police officer about some wrongdoing I allegedly did to their friend, I am extremely sensitive to this.  For the record, it wasn't nearly as serious as murder.

It's not going to matter to a number of people. They could have incontrovertible video evidence and some folks would claim it is doctored or filmed on a sound stage.  Doesn't matter.  No justice, no peace.


mu_hilltopper

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2014, 09:26:32 AM »
To maybe steer this away from Locked Land, what would the expectations of the board be for President Lovell should something like this occur at MU?  Is the deal cut acceptable if it was above board, or is making a deal with "protesters" an issue in of itself?

That's the crazy part.  From the above reports, it would appear that a professional, out-of-town protester got some folks together and took over a private college campus with demands that .. we're met!    

I get how .. SLU is a Jesuit institution and they do have an underlying mission to help the poor, disenfranchised, minority, etc, folks .. so I can see how they could be "on the same page" or at least "reading the same book" as the protesters .. But wow, that sure seems like extortion to me.

One would think SLU's agreement would be a playbook for the protesters to just move to another private / catholic / religious school and re-enact that episode, make the same demands that worked at SLU and the victim college would be hard pressed to fight it.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2014, 09:27:07 AM »
So, do we blame (some of) the media, which is simply chasing the necessary ratings (dollars), or the consumer for choosing to ignore calm, measured and objective reporting, and viewing the loud, blathering idiots on cable news instead?
After all, it's not the media's fault y'all prefer People to the The Economist and "The O'Reilly Factor" to "The McLaughlin Group."
There's plenty of calm, measured and objective material out there if you're willing to look for it. If you're like most people, you aren't looking.
It's a bit like blaming 7-11 for selling Big Gulps instead of sensible servings of pomengranate juice. Media outlets know exactly what you're watching/clicking on and when, and they're going to respond to those habits.

Yes, the media is to blame on some of this stuff.  They sensationalize an agenda and push an agenda.  They put the right hucksters on tv, give them the platform, etc.  Absolutely they are partially culpable.  Amazing how prescient many of them are about what happened when they have no idea, but that isn't going to stop them from inserting their opinion as fact and drumming up business....or in this case, drumming up hatred, votes, etc, all under the guise of moving forward....progress.

GGGG

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2014, 09:31:30 AM »
That's the crazy part.  From the above reports, it would appear that a professional, out-of-town protester got some folks together and took over a private college campus with demands that .. we're met!   

I get how .. SLU is a Jesuit institution and they do have an underlying mission to help the poor, disenfranchised, minority, etc, folks .. so I can see how they could be "on the same page" or at least "reading the same book" as the protesters .. But wow, that sure seems like extortion to me.

One would think SLU's agreement would be a playbook for the protesters to just move to another private / catholic / religious school and re-enact that episode, make the same demands that worked at SLU and the victim college would be hard pressed to fight it.


So the SLU president was really faced with three choices.  Call the police and get the protesters forcibly removed from campus.  Continue ignoring them and having a group of people living in the heart of your campus.  Or signing this document, which frankly doesn't include anything remarkable.

I'm not saying he did the right thing, but it's not as though he committed a great deal of university resources to sign this.  I bet half this stuff they already do.  I can see why he made the choice he did.

GGGG

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2014, 09:32:32 AM »
Except the former officers and officials of the FBI employed by the NFL weren't smart enough to pick up a phone and call the casino to ask for the Ray Rice tape.


I'm not exactly sure how this is at all relevant to what Gato is saying here.

drewm88

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2014, 10:06:26 AM »

So the SLU president was really faced with three choices.  Call the police and get the protesters forcibly removed from campus.  Continue ignoring them and having a group of people living in the heart of your campus.  Or signing this document, which frankly doesn't include anything remarkable.

I'm not saying he did the right thing, but it's not as though he committed a great deal of university resources to sign this.  I bet half this stuff they already do.  I can see why he made the choice he did.

Agreed.

I'm guessing SLU saw a lot of these conditions as things they're already doing or things they could easily do (especially given lack of terms for increased funding) and potentially should be doing based on their mission and their community.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2014, 10:15:25 AM »

So the SLU president was really faced with three choices.  Call the police and get the protesters forcibly removed from campus.  Continue ignoring them and having a group of people living in the heart of your campus.  Or signing this document, which frankly doesn't include anything remarkable.

I'm not saying he did the right thing, but it's not as though he committed a great deal of university resources to sign this.  I bet half this stuff they already do.  I can see why he made the choice he did.

Your assessment is the same as mine.   Although there's /some/ amount of money and effort that SLU will need to put forth.  Again .. their missions line up, so it's not that big of a deal, but still. 

mu03eng

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2014, 10:23:55 AM »

So the SLU president was really faced with three choices.  Call the police and get the protesters forcibly removed from campus.  Continue ignoring them and having a group of people living in the heart of your campus.  Or signing this document, which frankly doesn't include anything remarkable.

I'm not saying he did the right thing, but it's not as though he committed a great deal of university resources to sign this.  I bet half this stuff they already do.  I can see why he made the choice he did.

I think it's extortion plain and simple, and to Topper's point earlier....what prevents a group from doing the same thing at MU?  Granted you would have to have a larger controversy (ala Ferguson) to come in under to make it less arbitrary, but this could be a template.

I don't have an issue with the social cause ultimately served here by the agreement, they are noble causes.  However, I have multiple issues in the manner it which it was "forced" and the underhanded nature by which the university leadership went about it.

What would the SLU president have done had a group of students started protesting in chemistry building because of student debt, and they dangled the hook of "well we'll stop protesting if our protest group gets better funding, or our grades are improved one letter grade"?  I recognize it is an imperfect comparison, but I think it conveys the point.

Additionally, while the funding is minimal, where is it going to come from?  Is another program going to have funding reduced to support this agreement?  If so, can anyone with enough media leverage come in and demand funding changes at the university?

Lastly, was this whole episode conducted in an intellectually and academically honest way?  Is this an example of leadership we would want to pass on to the next generation currently enrolled at the university?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Henry Sugar

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2014, 10:35:25 AM »
I think it's extortion plain and simple, and to Topper's point earlier....what prevents a group from doing the same thing at MU?  Granted you would have to have a larger controversy (ala Ferguson) to come in under to make it less arbitrary, but this could be a template.


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GooooMarquette

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2014, 10:58:49 AM »
What gets me is that Furgeson is 60+ percent black. They should change things by voting in those folks who they think will make their community represent them and hopefully better for all....but they have not.

Agreed.  This was pointed out in an editorial (NYTimes?) shortly after the shooting.  The writer justifiably put some of the blame on the black citizens of Ferguson for not running for elected office and/or voting for their preferred candidates.  The "we're an oppressed minority" argument rings more true when a group actually is a minority.

In the small picture (the shooting), the citizens might be right in protesting...but they lose credibility by protesting the bigger picture of other supposed abuses by those in charge.

GooooMarquette

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2014, 11:01:18 AM »
Your assessment is the same as mine.   Although there's /some/ amount of money and effort that SLU will need to put forth.  Again .. their missions line up, so it's not that big of a deal, but still.  

I agree with this.  My main criticism of SLU leadership was misrepresenting what was happening to the university community (including parents).

Let's just hope SLU's African Studies department is run better than UNC's was.... ;)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:03:11 AM by GooooMarquette »

reinko

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2014, 11:06:34 AM »
How many of us, have decried college kids and current parents of college kids of being too nurturing, over protective, helicoptoring, giving every kid a trophy...

And all of sudden, a few people show up in tents and it's like WWIII.

drewm88

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2014, 01:52:14 PM »
How many of us, have decried college kids and current parents of college kids of being too nurturing, over protective, helicoptoring, giving every kid a trophy...

And all of sudden, a few people show up in tents and it's like WWIII.

+1

mu_hilltopper

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2014, 02:39:00 PM »
I've read a number of reports .. it would appear that the vast majority of those protesters weren't college kids.    So .. I don't think those comments apply.  Generally, they were not students.

From downtown STL to Ferguson is about the same distance as downtown MKE to Brown Deer.  If there was a Ferguson episode in Brown Deer and 100 Brown Deerites / out-of-town protesters encamped for 6 days @ Marquette during mid-semester break (like at SLU) .. not good.

source?

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2014, 02:40:23 PM »
To maybe steer this away from Locked Land, what would the expectations of the board be for President Lovell should something like this occur at MU?  Is the deal cut acceptable if it was above board, or is making a deal with "protesters" an issue in of itself?

I personally would hope MU would (1) Have the police remove any non-student protesters. (2) Have the police remove any student protesters who harass other students [this was during mid-terms and there are videos of the protesters harassing students]. (3) If any demands are being made they should be done in a public way. This not only clarifies the position of the protesters, but keeps the university from being extorted as it appears happened at SLU.

I don't care whether the agreement was reasonable. It was not reasonable for a group to take advantage of an unrelated situation to extort a private institution.

reinko

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Re: SLU Protest..
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2014, 02:45:25 PM »
I've read a number of reports .. it would appear that the vast majority of those protesters weren't college kids.    So .. I don't think those comments apply.  Generally, they were not students.

From downtown STL to Ferguson is about the same distance as downtown MKE to Brown Deer.  If there was a Ferguson episode in Brown Deer and 100 Brown Deerites / out-of-town protesters encamped for 6 days @ Marquette during mid-semester break (like at SLU) .. not good.

To each their own, everything I have read on this board and in the articles posted is how upset the parents are.  The parents weren't informed.  The parents, the parents, the parents.  SLU dealt with it, and by and large sounds like they handled it pretty damn well, and the students played a role in helping the admin seemed to act with maturity as well.  It seems like the only people huffing and puffing are media members and the select parents of kids @ SLU the media looks for to support their narrative, and people inventing narratives that start with "what happens if that happens (insert school)


 

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