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Author Topic: Casual Hoya reviews MU  (Read 27517 times)

River rat

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2014, 12:20:04 PM »
This whole stupid thread ...par for the course for NErs... reverts back to Ners obsession that if Buzz had played Dawson our offense would have been better.  Now I for one and maybe I am the only one will agree that derrick is subpar and there was no way we were going to be a top 25 team with him, yet Ners continues to then think that Dawson was better.  Unfortunately he was not.  I never saw a single game sans 10 minutes vs Gt where i was ever at all impressed with Dawson.  In fact I do no belive he will get more minutes this year or any other years should he stay around than he did last year.  the problem was we were very very weak at PG.  derrick was subpar, Dawson even worse.  Would a good PG made Davante look better, sure.  But to turn Buzzes failure to have a cpalable PG on the floor as some conspiracy to stick it to MU in beyond rational.

River rat

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2014, 12:29:41 PM »
Do what you need to do Rat.  But please, if you are going to come with an argument - please do so like Kangaroo did..with his list of other centers and their minutes.  But to use the lame cop out of a reason as in using Gardner's size/weight/stamina as an easy target to try to justify your point - the problem with it is that Gardner's O-Rating/efficiency/effectiveness went up and was higher for the year in games he played 30+ versus less than 30.  Somehow...it would seem really odd that if a guy was on "the verge of passing" out due to playing 4+ minute stretches in games....it would seem odd that he produced at a better level playing more minutes.

As for my low BBall IQ...somehow that low IQ predicted back in November of last season that the season was going to be a disaster if Buzz didn't make changes at PG/SG.  And I got fought on that by a handful of people all season long saying Buzz's teams always get better as the year goes on, etc., etc., etc., - it was plain as day that wasn't going to happen if we rolled with Derrick and Jake..not to mention playing them more minutes than any two other guys.

this post is why i will be ignoring you.  I simply no longer want to read the posts of someone so unintelligent, it makes me feel dumber.  Your basis that Buzz did not listen to you and your lack of the simple grasp of logic are a psychologists dream case.  maybe only a psychologist could get you to understand that logically Buzz could have played Dawson and the team done worse?  you have never admitted that.  even in the face that Dawson stunk, i mean stunk 9 times out of 10.   like others have said dawson will play less than derrick again this year.  is wojo conspring against MU too.  I dont think Dawson will make it 4 years at MU but you wanted him to start as a freshman

Why do I picture John Nash off his meds on a keyboard when I read your posts? 

MU82

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2014, 01:13:30 PM »
I'm not saying he should have been drafted.  Not saying he'll ever make the NBA - as you point out - 32 teams passed.  I'm simply saying that he is not light years away from being an NBA player/prospect....and there are many guys who have worked their way into the league without catching on as a prospect right out of college.

Keep in mind Scouts as you point out often do get caught up in the whole NBA Body thing...and combine measurables.  A guy like Gardner never looks as pretty/sexy as a more fluid athlete, yet those fluid athletes still had their hands full with Gardner on the block.  290lbs is a lot to contend with.  As I said in a previous thread, Gardner was in the Top 100 of all college basketball players in 9 different offensive categories.  

I personally like production over potential...yet many GMs draft based on potential...and that's just the way it is.  Gardner stands zero chance of ever being an NBA superstar...unlike perhaps a guy like Inglis (Bucks 2nd round pick), yet Inglis could very well be a bust and a guy like Gardner would give you a solid end of the bench 10 minute a game type of guy that could get you instant offense.

I thought you had insinuated that had Buzz not misused him, Davante would have been more attractive to the NBA. If that's not what you meant, I sit corrected on at least some of my post.

Davante simply is not NBA material. And I tend to lean more toward the "not even close" side than to the "maybe he has a shot" side. But, as you said, I would have leaned the same way with Buycks, so what the hey!
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NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
this post is why i will be ignoring you.  I simply no longer want to read the posts of someone so unintelligent, it makes me feel dumber.  Your basis that Buzz did not listen to you and your lack of the simple grasp of logic are a psychologists dream case.  maybe only a psychologist could get you to understand that logically Buzz could have played Dawson and the team done worse?  you have never admitted that.  even in the face that Dawson stunk, i mean stunk 9 times out of 10.   like others have said dawson will play less than derrick again this year.  is wojo conspring against MU too.  I dont think Dawson will make it 4 years at MU but you wanted him to start as a freshman

Why do I picture John Nash off his meds on a keyboard when I read your posts? 

LOL - Have you re-read any of your posts?  Do you feel you articulate yourself well?  Or exhibit a high level of intelligence?  Personally, if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick questions others intelligence.

Please, help me understand how the team could have done worse if Dawson started?  I won't ever admit that, because it simply isn't true.  There is zero basis to think that a team would perform worse if it has a player at the most critical position who needs to be guarded everywhere on the floor, and shoots better than 7% from 3 the 3 and 44% from the FT line.  There is particularly no basis for it, when the one time ALL SEASON the alternative option is played 30 minutes and has a large hand in our victory.

We missed the f'in NIT last season with the choice Buzz made - if that isn't a colossal failure after being a pre-season Top 20 team...I'm not sure what is...and how it could have gotten worse...yet you argue it could have been worse??!  

Call me crazy, but I feel a basketball team has a better chance to win, when it plays 5 on 5.  I look forward to your logical explanation as to how a team that plays 4 on 5 stands a better chance to win.  LOL.

"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

River rat

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2014, 02:12:39 PM »
LOL - Have you re-read any of your posts?  Do you feel you articulate yourself well?  Or exhibit a high level of intelligence?  Personally, if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick questions others intelligence.

Please, help me understand how the team could have done worse if Dawson started?  I won't ever admit that, because it simply isn't true.  There is zero basis to think that a team would perform worse if it has a player at the most critical position who needs to be guarded everywhere on the floor, and shoots better than 7% from 3 the 3 and 44% from the FT line.  There is particularly no basis for it, when the one time ALL SEASON the alternative option is played 30 minutes and has a large hand in our victory.

We missed the f'in NIT last season with the choice Buzz made - if that isn't a colossal failure after being a pre-season Top 20 team...I'm not sure what is...and how it could have gotten worse...yet you argue it could have been worse??!  

Call me crazy, but I feel a basketball team has a better chance to win, when it plays 5 on 5.  I look forward to your logical explanation as to how a team that plays 4 on 5 stands a better chance to win.  LOL.



Umm well u got in before i have ignored you.  And the simple answer is were u not paying attention to Dawson trying to bring the ball up the floor or when he would simply throw the ball away?  sure he would have scored a few more points and in the exchange of the offense being even worse,  him making fewer assists, ie good passes on time on target that lead to scores and turning the ball over more that lead to more run out layups and dunks.  Sorry that Buzz, Wojo, and pretty much everyone else see nothing in dawson than you do.  your dead wrong, so wrong that a guy like Derrick beats the pants off Dawson and that says alot.  Dawson is not even a PG IMO 

NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2014, 02:28:53 PM »
Umm well u got in before i have ignored you.  And the simple answer is were u not paying attention to Dawson trying to bring the ball up the floor or when he would simply throw the ball away?  sure he would have scored a few more points and in the exchange of the offense being even worse,  him making fewer assists, ie good passes on time on target that lead to scores and turning the ball over more that lead to more run out layups and dunks.  Sorry that Buzz, Wojo, and pretty much everyone else see nothing in dawson than you do.  your dead wrong, so wrong that a guy like Derrick beats the pants off Dawson and that says alot.  Dawson is not even a PG IMO 

I can agree that Dawson's natural position may not be PG - yet I know for a fact that Derrick is NOT a natural PG...and anyone who would argue differently is foolish.  Dawson sees the floor MUCH better than does Derrick..think if you took a highlight reel of the top 10 passes from last season, Dawson probably had 5 of them.  Personally, I don't recall many creative assists Derrick authored.  Recall a lot of basic passes on the perimeter that led to assists - such as to a trailing Jamil.  Don't recall too many assists in transition from Derrick either.  Rarely recall Derrick breaking someone down off the dribble, drawing help and creating a nice look for a teammate (though I don't recall Dawson doing much of that in half court either - but there were some moments like that Dawson created in his limited time.)

Also think you greatly exaggerate the level of Dawson's turnovers - yes, there were some unforced and bad turnovers - yet he also played solid in the extended minutes against Georgetown.  Derrick had his share of poor turnovers as well....and I'm never as harsh to judge a guy who's only playing time is consistently inconsistent, and varies between 40 second stints and 3 minute stints.  Think it is plenty fair to draw conclusions from a guy who gets 30 minutes a game EVERY night as to what their ceiling and limitations are.

Enough said on the matter...I can agree to say Dawson isn't a prototypical PG and probably is better suited at the 2 - that we an agree on.  Yet I still believe Dawson as a PG is a better option than was Derrick last year.  Hopefully Derrick's hard work this summer paid off and he steps up and has a solid senior campaign.  I'd be happy for him if he did as he's a great rep of MU.  Just hope if we get more of the same this year, Wojo doesn't choose to handle it as Buzz did and in turn , cause the vast majority of our fanbase to be complaining about Derrick.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2014, 08:45:43 PM »
I think it's safe to say that had Gardner continued the trajectory of improvement he displayed from his first three years, he would have been squarely in the conversation as a 2nd round draft pick.

However, his senior year almost seems like he plateaued in November and, while he was still a good and effective player for the duration of the season, I think we grew to expect much more from him.

Granted, the development of any player has a lot to do with the coach, but also with the players around him.  It seems that as soon as Davante became the best player on the team, his development curtailed; this isn't to say that Buzz should or shouldn't be on the hook for Davante's lack of a stand-out senior campaign, but it would be irresponsible to dismiss the role the coaching staff played considering that, in hindsight, the head coach checked out before the final buzzer sounded.
No no no no no.

He can't run, he can't jump.  He couldn't defend anybody at the college level...how many guys like that get serious consideration from NBA teams?

His physical limitations are not something that can be overcome.  If he lost 70 lbs I doubt any of those things would improve all that much.

He is what he is.  An efficient low-block scorer because he learned to use his big body and has great hands.  Good for him.  He made the most of what he has to work with. 

GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2014, 09:15:08 PM »
No no no no no.

He can't run, he can't jump.  He couldn't defend anybody at the college level...how many guys like that get serious consideration from NBA teams?

His physical limitations are not something that can be overcome.  If he lost 70 lbs I doubt any of those things would improve all that much.

He is what he is.  An efficient low-block scorer because he learned to use his big body and has great hands.  Good for him.  He made the most of what he has to work with. 


And IMO will make a very good living over in Europe doing exactly this.

Eldon

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2014, 01:27:28 AM »
And yet, they always seem to miss some people. One guy from Marquette comes to mind, could you name him?

In the short-run, yes.  GMs don't take a gamble on a guy and then lo and behold, the guys is good (Wes).  But in the long-run, the guy always makes it into the NBA.  The system is efficient.  If you are good enough to play in the NBA, you will...eventually.

TheBurrEffect

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2014, 02:08:38 AM »
We've been down this rabbit hole too many times. If you feel better clinging to wacky conspiracy theories than facing reality (Dawson will likely be behind Derrick again this year - will Wojo be throwing games if that's the case?) then any discussion is fruitless.

Since Carlino will be our starting point guard, it's fairly easy to interpret that Wilson will get more time then Dawson due to his defense.

TheBurrEffect

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2014, 02:13:29 AM »
No no no no no.

He can't run,

You know I've always been quite perplexed at this "can't run" thing about Gardner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s07tpyW-Q_Q

He's done things like this multiple times.

GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2014, 08:09:29 AM »
You know I've always been quite perplexed at this "can't run" thing about Gardner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s07tpyW-Q_Q

He's done things like this multiple times.


OK.  He can run an occasional fast break.  So can I.

Look, it's very simple.  He wasn't drafted.  He wasn't signed.  He is playing in the second tier French league.  The idea that this is Buzz's fault is foolhardy.

GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2014, 08:33:18 AM »
In the short-run, yes.  GMs don't take a gamble on a guy and then lo and behold, the guys is good (Wes).  But in the long-run, the guy always makes it into the NBA.  The system is efficient.  If you are good enough to play in the NBA, you will...eventually.


Exactly.  And the guy they missed has an "NBA body."  He is a prototypical NBA 2G at 6'5" / 220.  He can run the floor, defend, etc.  NBA GMs didn't know that he had the skill set that he obviously has.

Davante Gardner is a 6'8" post player.  I don't care how skilled you are, but a 6'8" player cannot make a living on the post in today NBA.  He will have to transform his game for him to make it.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2014, 08:45:56 AM »
Since Carlino will be our starting point guard, it's fairly easy to interpret that Wilson will get more time then Dawson due to his defense.

If Carlino starts at the point (I think Derrick starts and Carlino plays the 2) the 2nd best ALL AROUND player will back him up. If that means Derrick or Dawson, I expect Wojo to pick Derrick.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2014, 09:52:34 AM »
Guys,

We already covered the Buzz 2013/14 rotations stuff 3 weeks ago.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44905.100

Here are the bullet points:

- Buzz is weird.

- Buzz was always weird.

- We liked weirdness and went along with it when they won.

- We hated weirdness and questioned everything when they lost.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2014, 10:00:10 AM »
If Carlino starts at the point (I think Derrick starts and Carlino plays the 2) the 2nd best ALL AROUND player will back him up. If that means Derrick or Dawson, I expect Wojo to pick Derrick.

Yea, I like Dawson but I dont see him getting much playing time at all. Maybe even less than last year.

hoyasincebirth

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2014, 11:44:02 AM »
And BTW - Not sure why our fans here get all hyper critical on a guy who wrote the original piece.  It was actually pretty well written and informed.

I'll be the first to say I couldn't dream of writing an in depth article on the state of the Georgetown program for the upcoming season.  We all know MU inside out, but let's get real...most of us have very limited in depth knowledge of our other conference teams roster composition..with regard to number of Top 100 players, what went right/wrong the prior year, etc.

Thanks. I thought I did a decent job for an outsider. I don't claim to be an excellent writer in terms of syntax, or sentence structure, etc, but I thought my info was solid. I'm writing these at a pretty fast paste. I don't have thaaaat much free time to edit them over and over again. Glad it sparked some discussion here.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2014, 11:52:09 AM »
Im willing to bet my entire college tuition that I have had over the past 4 years that we wont finish 9th. Dont see it, Creighton is gonna be awful.

NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2014, 11:55:14 AM »
Thanks. I thought I did a decent job for an outsider. I don't claim to be an excellent writer in terms of syntax, or sentence structure, etc, but I thought my info was solid. I'm writing these at a pretty fast paste. I don't have thaaaat much free time to edit them over and over again. Glad it sparked some discussion here.

You are welcome.  I thought you hit on a lot of key points and of course took your insight from here as to what our fanbase has been debating about last season and what caused it to go so terribly wrong - and weaved that into your article well.  

Haters hate, doers do.  Anytime you put a piece of "art" out to the general pubic it is open to interpretation and therefore compliments and criticism.  Never can make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time - so don't ever get caught up in trying to win that losing battle.  Just keep doing, producing, and writing what you believe -  and see if there are any lessons/learning that can be taken from the criticism..while enjoying the compliments of those who appreciate your efforts.  It's far more admirable to try and be criticized than to not try at all.  #lessonslearnedfromentrepreneurship.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2014, 12:00:40 PM »
Thanks. I thought I did a decent job for an outsider. I don't claim to be an excellent writer in terms of syntax, or sentence structure, etc, but I thought my info was solid. I'm writing these at a pretty fast paste. I don't have thaaaat much free time to edit them over and over again. Glad it sparked some discussion here.

Yeah I think your info was great but it's a weird pic. You basically say we lose everybody who made us a crappy team and replace them with unknown top 100 guys.  I'm with Chitown id bet my years of loans that we don't finish below creighton. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

barfolomew

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2014, 12:29:32 PM »
Thanks. I thought I did a decent job for an outsider. I don't claim to be an excellent writer in terms of syntax, or sentence structure, etc, but I thought my info was solid. I'm writing these at a pretty fast paste. I don't have thaaaat much free time to edit them over and over again. Glad it sparked some discussion here.

I agree that it was a pretty fair assessment... except the part where you tried to paint MU fans as total crackpots:

"Some Marquette fans accuse Buzz Williams of purposely holding these two and other young Marquette players back last year in a vain attempt to prove a point or possibly to purposefully sabotage the team depending on what conspiracy theory you want to believe."

Oh, wait, some actually have tried to argue that here.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »
I agree that it was a pretty fair assessment... except the part where you tried to paint MU fans as total crackpots:

"Some Marquette fans accuse Buzz Williams of purposely holding these two and other young Marquette players back last year in a vain attempt to prove a point or possibly to purposefully sabotage the team depending on what conspiracy theory you want to believe."

Oh, wait, some actually have tried to argue that here.


Yeah, it sounds so crazy because...it is so crazy.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2014, 12:37:36 PM »
Im willing to bet my entire college tuition that I have had over the past 4 years that we wont finish 9th. Dont see it, Creighton is gonna be awful.

Again, on paper, Creighton should be much better than us. They lose less of their offense, bring in about the same amount as us, and were much better last season. But I do agree, we should finish ahead of them. I think we play a lot better than we should on paper.
TAMU

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Lennys Tap

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2014, 01:12:55 PM »
Again, on paper, Creighton should be much better than us. They lose less of their offense, bring in about the same amount as us, and were much better last season. But I do agree, we should finish ahead of them. I think we play a lot better than we should on paper.

If a really good team (Creighton) retains or loses a big % of their production it is meaningful. If a mediocre one (MU) does the same it doesn't mean nearly as much. I used to laugh when people would say, "Watch out for DePaul, they've got their whole team back" - yeah, but their whole team stunk, so who cares? The key is to replace the "producers" with equal or better producers, and the worse a team the easier that is.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #99 on: October 23, 2014, 01:36:05 PM »
If a really good team (Creighton) retains or loses a big % of their production it is meaningful. If a mediocre one (MU) does the same it doesn't mean nearly as much. I used to laugh when people would say, "Watch out for DePaul, they've got their whole team back" - yeah, but their whole team stunk, so who cares? The key is to replace the "producers" with equal or better producers, and the worse a team the easier that is.


Theres a big difference between losing Doug McDermott, Ethan Wragge and Grant Gibbs vs. Jamil Wilson, Jake Tomas and Chris Otule. I dont even think Creighton is good on paper so I dont know where that argument comes from.