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Author Topic: Casual Hoya reviews MU  (Read 27522 times)

NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 09:27:55 AM »
Which of the 32 teams extended him a contract?

The point was Gardner was chosen MVP at a tourney of NBA draft hopefuls...he got on a summer league roster....the guy isn't that far away from the NBA..and there are guys who have gone to France and come back and made the league you know...as in Dwight Buycks.

Gardner may never see an NBA regular season game, but to act as if the guy is a universe away from being an NBA player/prospect is ridiculous.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

MU82

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 09:28:17 AM »

As for Gardner being misused - its kind of like how people said Dean Smith was the only guy who could hold Jordan under 20ppg.  Buzz should have been playing Gardner 30 minutes a night every night as a senior.  And we won't rehash how Buzz's coaching decision last season absolutely and totally hampered Gardner's ability to operate.

And yet, despite Dean Smith, NBA GMs somehow were able to decide that Michael Jordan was going to be a halfway decent pro.

Believe me, every NBA GM knew who Gardner was. They watched him closely his last two years at Marquette. He went to Portsmouth and was the MVP. They all knew what he was capable of doing -- and, unfortunately for him, what he wasn't capable of doing.

He does not have an NBA body or NBA skills. He is a center who can't defend, rebound or jump. He's a mediocre passer and ballhandler. He can score inside but not so easily against long, quick defenders.

The NBA had more information about him than you or I do and every GM passed on him twice. Some actually passed on him more than that because they had multiple picks.

Is every NBA GM stupid?

They find guys at Central Arkansas and Southeast Oklahoma State. They find guys in Croatia and Brazil.

They have thick books on every major college player.

They knew Davante. They weren't impressed.

He averaged 26.6 minutes as a senior. Had Buzz played him 3.4 more minutes per game, would NBA GMs gotten some kind of information they lacked?

Come on, Ners, you know basketball. You're better than this.
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Nukem2

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 09:34:20 AM »
He does not have an NBA body or NBA skills. He is a center who can't defend, rebound or jump. He's a mediocre passer and ballhandler. He can score inside but not so easily against long, quick defenders.

Just a quibble here as Davante is a good passer and ballhandler.  His issues were more with height, verticality, defensive quickness and conditioning.  Still not an NBA player.

NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 09:39:08 AM »
And yet, despite Dean Smith, NBA GMs somehow were able to decide that Michael Jordan was going to be a halfway decent pro.

Believe me, every NBA GM knew who Gardner was. They watched him closely his last two years at Marquette. He went to Portsmouth and was the MVP. They all knew what he was capable of doing -- and, unfortunately for him, what he wasn't capable of doing.

He does not have an NBA body or NBA skills. He is a center who can't defend, rebound or jump. He's a mediocre passer and ballhandler. He can score inside but not so easily against long, quick defenders.

The NBA had more information about him than you or I do and every GM passed on him twice. Some actually passed on him more than that because they had multiple picks.

Is every NBA GM stupid?

They find guys at Central Arkansas and Southeast Oklahoma State. They find guys in Croatia and Brazil.

They have thick books on every major college player.

They knew Davante. They weren't impressed.

He averaged 26.6 minutes as a senior. Had Buzz played him 3.4 more minutes per game, would NBA GMs gotten some kind of information they lacked?

Come on, Ners, you know basketball. You're better than this.

I'm not saying he should have been drafted.  Not saying he'll ever make the NBA - as you point out - 32 teams passed.  I'm simply saying that he is not light years away from being an NBA player/prospect....and there are many guys who have worked their way into the league without catching on as a prospect right out of college.

Keep in mind Scouts as you point out often do get caught up in the whole NBA Body thing...and combine measurables.  A guy like Gardner never looks as pretty/sexy as a more fluid athlete, yet those fluid athletes still had their hands full with Gardner on the block.  290lbs is a lot to contend with.  As I said in a previous thread, Gardner was in the Top 100 of all college basketball players in 9 different offensive categories.  

I personally like production over potential...yet many GMs draft based on potential...and that's just the way it is.  Gardner stands zero chance of ever being an NBA superstar...unlike perhaps a guy like Inglis (Bucks 2nd round pick), yet Inglis could very well be a bust and a guy like Gardner would give you a solid end of the bench 10 minute a game type of guy that could get you instant offense.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Lennys Tap

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2014, 09:49:36 AM »
  Was a travesty to see his senior year wasted as it was by Buzz.

Gardner's only chance for the NBA was at the 4. Buzz gave him a shot there and he was bad. Too fat, too slow. A guy who wants to be a professional athlete at the highest of levels has to be dedicated and disciplined. Thirty pounds of fat on him says he wasn't. Davante had big skills but fat 6'61/2" guys don't make the NBA. That's on him and only him.

Aughnanure

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2014, 09:53:09 AM »
I'm getting real sick of the "we'll see if these top 100 players finally live up to the hype." You mean the ones that barely played?
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2014, 09:53:43 AM »
The reason that NBA GMs like "potential over production" is because the history of the league is filled with people like that who are busts.  And yeah while there are plenty who are the opposite that are also busts, the latter guys at least have a chance to burst onto the scene with good coaching, dedication and hard work.  The former guys are going to have limitations no matter what they do.

There is really nothing wrong with saying "Davante was a very good college basketball player, who is going to make a lot of money overseas, but will likely not be in the NBA."  A lot of players have done that.

And the idea that Buzz was his limiting factor in that regard is beyond dumb.

mu03eng

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2014, 09:53:52 AM »
I'm not saying he should have been drafted.  Not saying he'll ever make the NBA - as you point out - 32 teams passed.  I'm simply saying that he is not light years away from being an NBA player/prospect....and there are many guys who have worked their way into the league without catching on as a prospect right out of college.

Keep in mind Scouts as you point out often do get caught up in the whole NBA Body thing...and combine measurables.  A guy like Gardner never looks as pretty/sexy as a more fluid athlete, yet those fluid athletes still had their hands full with Gardner on the block.  290lbs is a lot to contend with.  As I said in a previous thread, Gardner was in the Top 100 of all college basketball players in 9 different offensive categories.  

I personally like production over potential...yet many GMs draft based on potential...and that's just the way it is.  Gardner stands zero chance of ever being an NBA superstar...unlike perhaps a guy like Inglis (Bucks 2nd round pick), yet Inglis could very well be a bust and a guy like Gardner would give you a solid end of the bench 10 minute a game type of guy that could get you instant offense.

Seriously?  I love Gardner and I love his game at MU, but he was an absolute waste on the defensive end and while he was outstanding on the offensive end, it was against typically inferior competition.  His offensive game would not translate against NBA 3rd string players.

Could he go to France and improve his defense and jump shot, absolutely.  But coming out of school he is what he is, a bankrupt man's Z-Bo (that's great for the college game, but not the NBA).

Look at it this way, what is the one thing that Gardner does at an elite level?  Novak can shoot at an elite level, that's the only reason he was in the league as long as he was, Gardner does things well, but not nearly at an elite level to stick.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

mu03eng

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 09:55:18 AM »
I'm getting real sick of the "we'll see if these top 100 players finally live up to the hype." You mean the ones that barely played?


   Total    Ave   Max
Duane Wilson   0   0.0   0
John Dawson   245   7.7   31
Sandy Cohen   0   0.0   0
Juan Anderson   417   13.0   26
Derrick Wilson   987   30.8   47
Matt Carlino   954   29.8   44
Jajuan Johnson   283   8.8   27
Steve Taylor Jr   237   7.4   23
Deonte Burton   402   12.6   26
Luke Fischer   130   4.1   19
I'm just going to leave this here and let people think about it.
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GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 09:56:04 AM »
Look at it this way, what is the one thing that Gardner does at an elite level?  Novak can shoot at an elite level, that's the only reason he was in the league as long as he was, Gardner does things well, but not nearly at an elite level to stick.


In college he was a very good low block scorer.  But he simply isn't tall or athletic enough to do that in the NBA.  Not to mention that NBA teams don't run those type of offenses much any longer - and certainly aren't going to modify them for Davante.

mu03eng

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2014, 09:59:54 AM »

In college he was a very good low block scorer.  But he simply isn't tall or athletic enough to do that in the NBA.  Not to mention that NBA teams don't run those type of offenses much any longer - and certainly aren't going to modify them for Davante.

Right but he wasn't so good a low block scorer that he was above all other low block scorers that were available.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2014, 10:03:30 AM »
Right but he wasn't so good a low block scorer that he was above all other low block scorers that were available.


Exactly.  And I really am struggling with those who are saying that it is somehow Buzz's fault.  What exactly should they have done?  As Lennys said, he tried to play him at the 4 and it didn't work at all. 

I guess I don't understand the mindset that Gardner's growth and development was all on him...but his limitations were all on Buzz.  That makes no sense.

mu03eng

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2014, 10:06:34 AM »

Exactly.  And I really am struggling with those who are saying that it is somehow Buzz's fault.  What exactly should they have done?  As Lennys said, he tried to play him at the 4 and it didn't work at all. 

I guess I don't understand the mindset that Gardner's growth and development was all on him...but his limitations were all on Buzz.  That makes no sense.

Shh, you're gonna trip up the narrative bro
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NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2014, 10:13:28 AM »
The reason that NBA GMs like "potential over production" is because the history of the league is filled with people like that who are busts.  And yeah while there are plenty who are the opposite that are also busts, the latter guys at least have a chance to burst onto the scene with good coaching, dedication and hard work.  The former guys are going to have limitations no matter what they do.

There is really nothing wrong with saying "Davante was a very good college basketball player, who is going to make a lot of money overseas, but will likely not be in the NBA."  A lot of players have done that.

And the idea that Buzz was his limiting factor in that regard is beyond dumb.

Good post...

However, I never said anywhere Buzz was his limiting factor in making the NBA - I said it was a shame Buzz essentially wasted Devante's senior year with his idiotic coaching decision - to play Derrick and Jake more minutes than any other players on the team.  That was the worst starting backcourt at MU in as long as I can remember, and it absolutely impacted Gardner's production and ability to operate (even if he made modest gains in scoring as a senior - his O-Rating regressed from his Junior year).

I do feel Buzz should have played Gardner 30 minutes a night, period.  Yet that doesn't mean Buzz limited Gardner from being an NBA player.  What it means is that we never got to see how good Gardner could have been as a senior, if he was played max minutes with a competent backcourt.

"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

GGGG

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2014, 10:15:03 AM »
Good post...

However, I never said anywhere Buzz was his limiting factor in making the NBA


I know...TheBurrEffect did.

4everwarriors

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2014, 10:15:23 AM »
Gardner overachieved for a 2 star, overweight, poorly conditioned athlete, with very little basketball skill profiency, and no vertical lift. In the meantime, received an all expense paid 4 year scholarship. I'd say that's a pretty good head start in life, hey?
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NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2014, 10:18:38 AM »
Shh, you're gonna trip up the narrative bro

There is no narrative 03...seriously.  I don't think Buzz hampered Gardner from making the NBA...at ALL.  I think Buzz hampered what should have been a breakout senior year for Devante by his stubborn insistence to max minute Derrick and Jake when it was clear as day how difficult it was making things for the most talented guys on the team - Jamil and Devante.

Also pretty sure Jamil and Devante felt the same way...as we all know...they both mentioned and thanked every other person associated with the basketball program...OTHER THAN BUZZ in their Senior Night speeches.  If that didn't speak volumes...I'm not sure what more does...as to their state of mind on their senior campaign.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

NersEllenson

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2014, 10:23:03 AM »
And BTW - Not sure why our fans here get all hyper critical on a guy who wrote the original piece.  It was actually pretty well written and informed.

I'll be the first to say I couldn't dream of writing an in depth article on the state of the Georgetown program for the upcoming season.  We all know MU inside out, but let's get real...most of us have very limited in depth knowledge of our other conference teams roster composition..with regard to number of Top 100 players, what went right/wrong the prior year, etc.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

mu03eng

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2014, 10:35:10 AM »
There is no narrative 03...seriously.  I don't think Buzz hampered Gardner from making the NBA...at ALL.  I think Buzz hampered what should have been a breakout senior year for Devante by his stubborn insistence to max minute Derrick and Jake when it was clear as day how difficult it was making things for the most talented guys on the team - Jamil and Devante.

Also pretty sure Jamil and Devante felt the same way...as we all know...they both mentioned and thanked every other person associated with the basketball program...OTHER THAN BUZZ in their Senior Night speeches.  If that didn't speak volumes...I'm not sure what more does...as to their state of mind on their senior campaign.

Yep, there is no narrative in anything you wrote there.   ;D  There is narrative in that some on the board that want to blame Buzz for everything that went wrong last season.  He is responsible for a lot of things, most especially the lack of experience on this year's team and a lack of player development.  However, I don't know that he could have gotten more out of Ox than he did, regardless of who he had at the 1 and the 2.

To be fair there is narrative the other way, that Buzz wasn't the problem and a reflex to disagree with anything you and Willie and others say.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2014, 10:39:23 AM »

To be fair there is narrative the other way, that Buzz wasn't the problem and a reflex to disagree with anything you and Willie and others say.

Oh Buzz was a problem. Not so much with Davante but other things. My dad, who has no MU connections at all and has coached forever was stunned by some of the rotations Buzz used.

Benny B

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2014, 10:43:29 AM »
I think it's safe to say that had Gardner continued the trajectory of improvement he displayed from his first three years, he would have been squarely in the conversation as a 2nd round draft pick.

However, his senior year almost seems like he plateaued in November and, while he was still a good and effective player for the duration of the season, I think we grew to expect much more from him.

Granted, the development of any player has a lot to do with the coach, but also with the players around him.  It seems that as soon as Davante became the best player on the team, his development curtailed; this isn't to say that Buzz should or shouldn't be on the hook for Davante's lack of a stand-out senior campaign, but it would be irresponsible to dismiss the role the coaching staff played considering that, in hindsight, the head coach checked out before the final buzzer sounded.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

bilsu

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2014, 10:46:39 AM »
Oh Buzz was a problem. Not so much with Davante but other things. My dad, who has no MU connections at all and has coached forever was stunned by some of the rotations Buzz used.
I am not debating whether Buzz was a problem or not, but I am not sure why your dad " who has no MU connections" being stunned by the rotations has anything to do with this. Now, if you had said he had MU connections he might have known some of the inside stuff that would make his observation valid.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2014, 11:00:26 AM »


To be fair there is narrative the other way, that Buzz wasn't the problem and a reflex to disagree with anything you and Willie and others say.

Actually, that's not quite fair. Tower, Sultan and I (and many others) don't say Buzz wasn't the problem. We readily acknowledge that Buzz the GM was caught short last year and therefore WAS the problem. Blue's early departure, McKay's transfer and injuries to STjr and Du Wilson left him with no experience in the backcourt other than Derrick, Jake and Todd. JJJ was highly ranked but obviously not ready. Dawson wasn't ready either. It's a guard's game and last year ours weren't good enough. And that's on Buzz.

We won't, however, go along with the fiction that Williams coached last year's team differently than previous ones. Defense/offense substitutions? Yep, as done before. Heavy minutes for the most experienced. Yep, as always. Difference? Due to a weaker than usual backcourt we lost tight games that we won in the past. No conspiracies, no thrown games - that's just total BS.

TheBurrEffect

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2014, 11:01:19 AM »


Is every NBA GM stupid?

They find guys at Central Arkansas and Southeast Oklahoma State. They find guys in Croatia and Brazil.

They have thick books on every major college player.



And yet, they always seem to miss some people. One guy from Marquette comes to mind, could you name him?

JakeBarnes

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Re: Casual Hoya reviews MU
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2014, 11:03:46 AM »
And yet, they always seem to miss some people. One guy from Marquette comes to mind, could you name him?

Wessy Wes is a good one.

Buycks seems to be another to a lesser degree.
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


 

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