Casual Hoya reviews MU

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm getting real sick of the "we'll see if these top 100 players finally live up to the hype." You mean the ones that barely played?

If they lived up to the hype in the first place, they would have played more. I think that's the point the article is trying to make.

[TheBurrEffect]

Exactly.  And I really am struggling with those who are saying that it is somehow Buzz's fault.  What exactly should they have done?  As Lennys said, he tried to play him at the 4 and it didn't work at all. 

I guess I don't understand the mindset that Gardner's growth and development was all on him...but his limitations were all on Buzz.  That makes no sense.

Are you telling me that Buzz who subbed players in like it was hockey, had Derrick and Jake in the back court and had zero offensive rhythm all game, along with possibly the most stagnant offense I've ever seen at Marquette, did zero things to effect the production of Gardner?

[79Warrior]

If they lived up to the hype in the first place, they would have played more. I think that's the point the article is trying to make.

Exactly.

[TheBurrEffect]

I know...TheBurrEffect did.

"Must agree. He could have had an nba defining season if it wasn't for buzz."

No where in there does it blame Buzz for stopping him from going to the nba. In there it states that Buzz was the reason Gardner's production was not as high as it could have been. And that is 100% fact.

[CTWarrior]

Are you telling me that Buzz who subbed players in like it was hockey, had Derrick and Jake in the back court and had zero offensive rhythm all game, along with possibly the most stagnant offense I've ever seen at Marquette, did zero things to effect the production of Gardner?

Gardner's collegiate offensive production was no doubt hurt by the players Buzz chose to play with him.  This is NOT the same thing as hurting his NBA prospects.  He simply lacks the athleticism to play at that level.  There's a lot of negative things you may want to say about Buzz Williams, but if you played for him and weren't in peak physical condition, it wasn't because of Buzz.

[GGGG]

"Must agree. He could have had an nba defining season if it wasn't for buzz."

No where in there does it blame Buzz for stopping him from going to the nba.

To me, and pretty much everyone else, that's *exactly* how that reads.

[GGGG]

Are you telling me that Buzz who subbed players in like it was hockey, had Derrick and Jake in the back court and had zero offensive rhythm all game, along with possibly the most stagnant offense I've ever seen at Marquette, did zero things to effect the production of Gardner?

Production?  Yes.  Growth and development?  No.

[CTWarrior]

Marquette was dogcrap all season long last campaign and were two choke jobs in the last week away from finishing 11-7 and a stand alone third place finish. Color me unimpressed with any of the squads that finished around us then and/or picked ahead of us now based on recruiting hype alone. Warriors finish fourth and sneak in with a good performance in NYC.

I basically agree with this, except we lost a ton from last year's team, more than most.  Basically, we lost Gardner, Jamil Wilson, Thomas, Otule and Gardner and are replacing them with Sandy Cohen, Duane Wilson and 1/2 a season of Luke Fischer.  You would normally expect that to cause a drop-off.  I think we'll be better than people think, but I don't blame anybody for thinking we won't be very good.

[NersEllenson]

Actually, that's not quite fair. Tower, Sultan and I (and many others) don't say Buzz wasn't the problem. We readily acknowledge that Buzz the GM was caught short last year and therefore WAS the problem. Blue's early departure, McKay's transfer and injuries to STjr and Du Wilson left him with no experience in the backcourt other than Derrick, Jake and Todd. JJJ was highly ranked but obviously not ready. Dawson wasn't ready either. It's a guard's game and last year ours weren't good enough. And that's on Buzz.

We won't, however, go along with the fiction that Williams coached last year's team differently than previous ones. Defense/offense substitutions? Yep, as done before. Heavy minutes for the most experienced. Yep, as always. Difference? Due to a weaker than usual backcourt we lost tight games that we won in the past. No conspiracies, no thrown games - that's just total BS.

Lenny - Obviously you are Buzz's most staunch supporter and have a hard time acknowledging his flaws - other than to say he failed as a GM.  Yet I find your post somewhat flawed:

As GM - Did Buzz have no influence over Blue's decision, or McKay's decision to transferr?
You mention Buzz coached no different than in previous years - as in "heavy minutes for the most experienced," So is Duane Wilson getting hurt really even relevant??  What's to say Buzz would have played him anyway?  Hell Burton couldn't get more than 12 a game and he was all Big East freshman...

The frustration I had and 80% of the fanbase had was....Buzz absolutely refused to make changes at the 2 positions that were most in question:  PG and SG.  He had choices...he simply refused to make them for whatever reasons....yet I'll never understand why a coach would want to play 4 on 5 by his own admission...when he had a guy on the bench who he gave exactly 1 game of more than 20 minutes and it went well (Dawson.)  Meanwhile, he buried JJJ on the bench - a 5-star shooting guard recruit he raved about in the early days of last season coming out of boot camp.

That's where the frustration came in for most all of us....he had other options....yet he absolutely refused to use them...yet was getting game after game of data showing he couldn't win with his chosen guys.

[GGGG]

The frustration I had and 80% of the fanbase had was....Buzz absolutely refused to make changes at the 2 positions that were most in question:  PG and SG.  He had choices...he simply refused to make them for whatever reasons....

The reasons were very simple and not the mystery you think it was.  He thought that the choices he made at those positions put him in a better position to win games.  You (and others) disagreed.  It retrospect, you may have been correct.  Or it could have been worse.

It really is that simple.  No conspiracies.  Nothing untoward.  That's it.

[Galway Eagle]

Does anyone else find it funny when they read we lose 70% of scoring from a team that went 17-15? Like to me I read that almost as an oxymoron as to why we'd be bad.  They might as well say the vast majority of MU's production sucked and it's now gone but getting rid of of inefficiency is a problem. 

[NersEllenson]

The reasons were very simple and not the mystery you think it was.  He thought that the choices he made at those positions put him in a better position to win games.  You (and others) disagreed.  It retrospect, you may have been correct.  Or it could have been worse.

It really is that simple.  No conspiracies.  Nothing untoward.  That's it.

I disagree that there was nothing untoward or shady about Buzz's decision - particularly when he bolted at the end of the year.  Either that or his ego was so incredibly large, that he felt he was a superior enough coach to overcome playing 4 on 5.  Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if Buzz knew of the grumbling of this board and the fanbase over his coaching decisions - and when he finally made the change (Dawson in Georgetown) that worked - he simply couldn't allow for it to appear he was wrong up to that point in the season.  There is zero explanation for how Dawson could play so solidly for 30 minutes on the road against GTown and then return home against Nova and get 8 minutes...and never see more than 17 the rest of the year...as the losses continued to rack up.  You'd think he'd have earned at least a little more look than that after GTown performance.

[mu03eng]

I disagree that there was nothing untoward or shady about Buzz's decision - particularly when he bolted at the end of the year.  Either that or his ego was so incredibly large, that he felt he was a superior enough coach to overcome playing 4 on 5.  Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if Buzz knew of the grumbling of this board and the fanbase over his coaching decisions - and when he finally made the change (Dawson in Georgetown) that worked - he simply couldn't allow for it to appear he was wrong up to that point in the season.  There is zero explanation for how Dawson could play so solidly for 30 minutes on the road against GTown and then return home against Nova and get 8 minutes...and never see more than 17 the rest of the year...as the losses continued to rack up.  You'd think he'd have earned at least a little more look than that after GTown performance.

There are multiple reasons, you just don't believe them.

And I've been sucked in again....damn it

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I do feel Buzz should have played Gardner 30 minutes a night, period.

You know you've said this a couple of times. Do you know how rare it is for a starting center to get 30 mpg?

Here are a list of starting centers from top 25 teams and their MPG:
Bold indicates current NBA player
DeAndre Daniels (UConn): 6-9 205 29.0 mpg
Willie Cauley-Stein (Kentucky): 7-0 240 23.8 mpg
Patric Young (Florida) 6-9 240 26.3 mpg
Frank Kaminsky (Wisconsin): 7-0 234 27.2 mpg
Kaleb Tarczewski (Arizona): 7-0 235 28.3 mpg
Jordan Morgan (Michigan): 6-8 250 20.1 mpg
Cleanthony Early (Wichita State): 6-8 220 27.4 mpg
Adrien Payne (Michigan State): 6-10 245 28.1 mpg
Steven Van Treese (Louisville): 6-9 245 21.6 mpg
Akil Mitchell (Virginia): 6-8 235 25.7 mpg
Georges Niang (Iowa State): 6-8 230 30.1 mpg
Skylar Spencer (San Diego State): 6-10 235 23.8 mpg
Daniel Ochefu (Villanova): 6-11 245 21.7 mpg
Joel Embiid (Kansas): 7-0 250 23.1 mpg
Travis Wear (UCLA): 6-10 225 23.9 mpg
Jabari Parker (Duke): 6-8 235 30.7 mpg
Rakeem Christmas (Syracuse): 6-9 250 23.6 mpg
Isaiah Austin (Baylor): 7-1 225 28.0 mpg
Devin Oliver (Dayton): 6-7 225 29.9 mpg
Doug McDermmott (Creighton): 6-8 225 33.7 mpg
James McAdoo (North Carolina): 6-9 230 30.1 mpg
Justin Jackson (Cincinnati): 6-8 230 27.8 mpg
Jarnell Stokes (Tennessee): 6-9 263 32.4 mpg
Stefan Nastic (Stanford): 6-11 245 19.7 mpg
Rob Loe (St. Louis): 6-11 245 27.7 mpg

So of the top 25 teams, only 5 gave their starting center 30 mpg or more.

Of those 5, 4 are current NBA players and 1 is likely a future NBA player.

Of those 5, 4 are either PFs or SFs that happen to play on short college teams.

Of those 5, 5 are lighter and more athletic than Davante. 4 of them are at least 55 lbs lighter.

I understand that Davante was efficient in the handful of games where he played more than 30 minutes. But he likely couldn't have kept up that pace over the season. It's just common basketball knowledge that centers usually don't play much more than 25 mpg.

[Aughnanure]

If they lived up to the hype in the first place, they would have played more. I think that's the point the article is trying to make.

Yeah that's the point, I just disagree with that as the actual reason.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yeah that's the point, I just disagree with that as the actual reason.

We're all hoping that Buzz unfairly buried people on the bench. Other fans assume that our bench players weren't good enough to earn the playing time. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Lennys Tap]

The reasons were very simple and not the mystery you think it was.  He thought that the choices he made at those positions put him in a better position to win games.  You (and others) disagreed.  It retrospect, you may have been correct.  Or it could have been worse.

It really is that simple.  No conspiracies.  Nothing untoward.  That's it.

There you go.

[River rat]

LOL - Scored against non-athletic bigs?  He scored against anybody he was matched up with one on one.  Abused Zeller and UNC as a sophomore in the tourney.  His O-Rating/Efficiency were some of the best in college basketball, and I'd surmise if you take his career O-Rating, he'd arguably rate in the Top 5% of all college basketball players.  Wish we had more "one trick ponies" like Gardner.

As for Gardner being misused - its kind of like how people said Dean Smith was the only guy who could hold Jordan under 20ppg.  Buzz should have been playing Gardner 30 minutes a night every night as a senior.  And we won't rehash how Buzz's coaching decision last season absolutely and totally hampered Gardner's ability to operate.

really ners...about time to put you back on ignore.  After being in the game for 4 or more minutes davante would appear to be on the verge of passing out and in many cases our very slow offense even had to wait long periods of time for him to get up court.  when tired he would put up tired shots and is normally poor defense went o atrocious.  30 minutes?  for a guy that calls himself a former player many of you diatribes would indicated that either you didnt play or you were one of theose players with a low BBAll IQ

[NersEllenson]

There you go.

Ever heard of the definition of insanity?  That fit Buzz quite well last season.  Kept doing the same thing over and over and over again....and never got any different results.  You'd think at some point he'd have stopped banging his head against the brick wall.

[River rat]

Actually, that's not quite fair. Tower, Sultan and I (and many others) don't say Buzz wasn't the problem. We readily acknowledge that Buzz the GM was caught short last year and therefore WAS the problem. Blue's early departure, McKay's transfer and injuries to STjr and Du Wilson left him with no experience in the backcourt other than Derrick, Jake and Todd. JJJ was highly ranked but obviously not ready. Dawson wasn't ready either. It's a guard's game and last year ours weren't good enough. And that's on Buzz.

We won't, however, go along with the fiction that Williams coached last year's team differently than previous ones. Defense/offense substitutions? Yep, as done before. Heavy minutes for the most experienced. Yep, as always. Difference? Due to a weaker than usual backcourt we lost tight games that we won in the past. No conspiracies, no thrown games - that's just total BS.

very well said...the buzz threw in the towel, knew he was on the way out so he favored this guy over that, all the other thrown games horsecrap is true horse crap and makes anyone posting that crap basically clueless future posts weightless.

[Lennys Tap]

I disagree that there was nothing untoward or shady about Buzz's decision - particularly when he bolted at the end of the year.  Either that or his ego was so incredibly large, that he felt he was a superior enough coach to overcome playing 4 on 5.  Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if Buzz knew of the grumbling of this board and the fanbase over his coaching decisions - and when he finally made the change (Dawson in Georgetown) that worked - he simply couldn't allow for it to appear he was wrong up to that point in the season.  There is zero explanation for how Dawson could play so solidly for 30 minutes on the road against GTown and then return home against Nova and get 8 minutes...and never see more than 17 the rest of the year...as the losses continued to rack up.  You'd think he'd have earned at least a little more look than that after GTown performance.

We've been down this rabbit hole too many times. If you feel better clinging to wacky conspiracy theories than facing reality (Dawson will likely be behind Derrick again this year - will Wojo be throwing games if that's the case?) then any discussion is fruitless.

[GGGG]

I disagree that there was nothing untoward or shady about Buzz's decision - particularly when he bolted at the end of the year.  Either that or his ego was so incredibly large, that he felt he was a superior enough coach to overcome playing 4 on 5.  Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if Buzz knew of the grumbling of this board and the fanbase over his coaching decisions - and when he finally made the change (Dawson in Georgetown) that worked - he simply couldn't allow for it to appear he was wrong up to that point in the season.  There is zero explanation for how Dawson could play so solidly for 30 minutes on the road against GTown and then return home against Nova and get 8 minutes...and never see more than 17 the rest of the year...as the losses continued to rack up.  You'd think he'd have earned at least a little more look than that after GTown performance.

So let me get this straight.  There are two possible explanations why Derrick got more playing time than Dawson.  

1. Buzz thought Derrick was better.

or

2. Buzz knew that Dawson was better, but Buzz was being "shady" and "untoward," knowing that he was going to leave after the year, and that he had a massive ego that prevented him from making the change even though it was painfully obvious to everyone (even though it wasn't) that a change needed to be made.


Really the answer can be #1, even if you think he was wrong.  But if you think the answer is #2, you are just a tin foil hat wearing "Buzz Truther" in my book.  It's simply irrational.

[JakeBarnes]

So let me get this straight.  There are two possible explanations why Derrick got more playing time than Dawson.  

1. Buzz thought Derrick was better.

or

2. Buzz knew that Dawson was better, but Buzz was being "shady" and "untoward," knowing that he was going to leave after the year, and that he had a massive ego that prevented him from making the change even though it was painfully obvious to everyone (even though it wasn't) that a change needed to be made.


Really the answer can be #1, even if you think he was wrong.  But if you think the answer is #2, you are just a tin foil hat wearing "Buzz Truther" in my book.  It's simply irrational.

Truther is so last year. We've moved on to "gate" this year.

So, please tag accordingly: #BuzzGate

[NersEllenson]

really ners...about time to put you back on ignore.  After being in the game for 4 or more minutes davante would appear to be on the verge of passing out and in many cases our very slow offense even had to wait long periods of time for him to get up court.  when tired he would put up tired shots and is normally poor defense went o atrocious.  30 minutes?  for a guy that calls himself a former player many of you diatribes would indicated that either you didnt play or you were one of theose players with a low BBAll IQ

Do what you need to do Rat.  But please, if you are going to come with an argument - please do so like Kangaroo did..with his list of other centers and their minutes.  But to use the lame cop out of a reason as in using Gardner's size/weight/stamina as an easy target to try to justify your point - the problem with it is that Gardner's O-Rating/efficiency/effectiveness went up and was higher for the year in games he played 30+ versus less than 30.  Somehow...it would seem really odd that if a guy was on "the verge of passing" out due to playing 4+ minute stretches in games....it would seem odd that he produced at a better level playing more minutes.

As for my low BBall IQ...somehow that low IQ predicted back in November of last season that the season was going to be a disaster if Buzz didn't make changes at PG/SG.  And I got fought on that by a handful of people all season long saying Buzz's teams always get better as the year goes on, etc., etc., etc., - it was plain as day that wasn't going to happen if we rolled with Derrick and Jake..not to mention playing them more minutes than any two other guys.

[NersEllenson]

We've been down this rabbit hole too many times. If you feel better clinging to wacky conspiracy theories than facing reality (Dawson will likely be behind Derrick again this year - will Wojo be throwing games if that's the case?) then any discussion is fruitless.

As long as Wojo is winning games I won't care how many minutes Derrick plays...if I see teams sagging off of him again 6' and us having a totally anemic offense - I'd sure as hell hope Wojo would adjust, and not adjust by playing Derrick even more minutes...as we saw at the end of last season with Buzz....think Derrick hit several high minute marks in the last 5 games of the year.

And guess what...I'm highly confident if the above does happen....we will see an adjustment.