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Author Topic: Guarding Kaminsky  (Read 35324 times)

wadesworld

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2014, 05:41:34 PM »
Let's not forget, UW might be one of the top teams in the country throughout the regular season, but as long as you are 1 of the 68 teams to get into the NCAA Tournament you have as good of a chance to win it all as any of the other 67 teams.  Just ask Chicos.  The biggest crap shoot in sports is the NCAA Tourney.  Might as well just flip a coin for every game and see who ends up last team standing.
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2014, 09:20:40 AM »
I am in, but what is a case of "Beer 30"

I always thought the correct use of 'beer 30' is:

Hey, what time is it?

It's Beer:30, let's pop 'em open!

mu-rara

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2014, 11:14:01 AM »
Hey man I hate Bo as much as the next guy but his UW-PL record was crazy good there's no denying that.
You cannot compare them. Does Coach K get to add his D3 wins to his D1 wins?  Bobby Knight?

GGGG

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2014, 11:41:20 AM »
You cannot compare them. Does Coach K get to add his D3 wins to his D1 wins?  Bobby Knight?


Neither one of them coached in d3.

Regardless, his d3 resume is impressive.  As is his d1 resume.  They are very different types of programs though.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 11:43:01 AM by The Sultan of Sunshine »

Galway Eagle

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2014, 11:50:14 AM »
You cannot compare them. Does Coach K get to add his D3 wins to his D1 wins?  Bobby Knight?

Seeing as neither of them coached D3 I don't think it'd make a difference.  But the statement was whether Bo was good in the tournament. Well why when he was playing with D3 talent against D3 talent does that not count? It's not like he was using D1 talent.  I did not say it had any reflection on his D1 tournament record but I said if you include the D3 years it's quite impressive.  6/13 going to the second weekend in this day and age isn't bad.  When you include he won 4/9 D3 championships (won't mention D3 advancing past first weekend) it's impressive.
Maigh Eo for Sam

mu-rara

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2014, 12:28:51 PM »

Neither one of them coached in d3.

Regardless, his d3 resume is impressive.  As is his d1 resume.  They are very different types of programs though.
I know that K and Knight never coached D3.  My point is D1 is D1.  Cannot come close to being compared.  His D3 record stands alone, as does his D1 record.

mu-rara

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2014, 12:37:16 PM »
Seeing as neither of them coached D3 I don't think it'd make a difference.  But the statement was whether Bo was good in the tournament. Well why when he was playing with D3 talent against D3 talent does that not count? It's not like he was using D1 talent.  I did not say it had any reflection on his D1 tournament record but I said if you include the D3 years it's quite impressive.  6/13 going to the second weekend in this day and age isn't bad.  When you include he won 4/9 D3 championships (won't mention D3 advancing past first weekend) it's impressive.
Not sure why Bo's NCAA (D1) record of underachievement is universally minimized.  Bo's record of performance against seeding is horrid.  D3 sports become dominated by 1 school for years at a time.  Platteville for years in basketball, Whitewater  for years in football.  Before Whitewater,  Mount Union dominated.  It is not unusual.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2014, 12:46:08 PM »
Not sure why Bo's NCAA (D1) record of underachievement is universally minimized.  Bo's record of performance against seeding is horrid.  D3 sports become dominated by 1 school for years at a time.  Platteville for years in basketball, Whitewater  for years in football.  Before Whitewater,  Mount Union dominated.  It is not unusual.

So that means 4 championships in that time isn't impressive? And during work today I'll decide how hard I wanna go on this argument. But as of now expect me to do the actual research on his seeding record when I get home around 8 central.
Maigh Eo for Sam

jjfanec

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #108 on: October 20, 2014, 12:51:04 PM »
Not sure why Bo's NCAA (D1) record of underachievement is universally minimized.  Bo's record of performance against seeding is horrid.  D3 sports become dominated by 1 school for years at a time.  Platteville for years in basketball, Whitewater  for years in football.  Before Whitewater,  Mount Union dominated.  It is not unusual.

That just isnt true.  Bo's team have actually done well compared to where they are seeded but they have lost to teams seeded worse than them who upset other teams earlier.  They have under performed their seed 3 times and over performed their seed 4 times and 6 times they have finished where they were seeded.  

The argument has been made about Bo's teams losing to teams that are worse seeds which has definitely happened but Bo's teams have actually outperformed their actual seed by a slim margin

GGGG

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #109 on: October 20, 2014, 12:52:59 PM »
Not sure why Bo's NCAA (D1) record of underachievement is universally minimized.  Bo's record of performance against seeding is horrid.  D3 sports become dominated by 1 school for years at a time.  Platteville for years in basketball, Whitewater  for years in football.  Before Whitewater,  Mount Union dominated.  It is not unusual.


If you go back to 1975, the first time NCAA Division 3 was what it essentially is now, 22 D3 schools have won the national championship.  Over the same timeframe, 20 schools have won the D1 championship.

So that theory isn't accurate.

It really isn't all that different in many ways.  You recruit, build a team, practice, coach in games, deal with boosters, etc.  The basics of the job are in many ways the same.  They are different in scale and how much a coach is under the microscope, etc.

D1 guys have to deal with things that D3 coaches don't.  Handlers, shoe companies, etc. D3 coaches have to teach classes, or work somewhere else.  (I doubt there are any full time D3 coaches.)  

It would be interesting to hear what Ryan would say about the differences.  Or John Beilein.  

mu-rara

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #110 on: October 20, 2014, 01:35:51 PM »
So that means 4 championships in that time isn't impressive? And during work today I'll decide how hard I wanna go on this argument. But as of now expect me to do the actual research on his seeding record when I get home around 8 central.

I am not worried about your research on Bo's performance against seed.  It is unimpressive compared to the coach love he receives.  As much as Vadger fans love him, the badger boards were on fire after a couple of his many NCAA underperformances.  I believe his first year at UW Madison was 2002.  

I did not mean that his D3 record is unimpressive.  I meant that you cannot compare D1 to D3 because in D3 it is more common to win multiple championships in close proximity.  

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2014, 02:28:05 PM »

If you go back to 1975, the first time NCAA Division 3 was what it essentially is now, 22 D3 schools have won the national championship.  Over the same timeframe, 20 schools have won the D1 championship.

 

Wow, I am surprised only 20 DI schools won it in that timeframe (and UCLA only twice in that period)

bilsu

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2014, 02:44:21 PM »
Coach K has 4(?) NCAA titles. However, in a lot of years when his team did not win the title Duke lost earlier than they were expected to. More than once I picked Duke in the office pool to win it all and they did not make the final four. However, his NCAA tournament winning percentage is amazing.

GGGG

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2014, 02:56:35 PM »
Coach K has 4(?) NCAA titles. However, in a lot of years when his team did not win the title Duke lost earlier than they were expected to. More than once I picked Duke in the office pool to win it all and they did not make the final four. However, his NCAA tournament winning percentage is amazing.


Kentucky, Duke, UConn and UNC have 4.  Indiana and Louisville have 3.  So those six schools account for over half the titles since then.

JWags85

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2014, 03:05:14 PM »
That just isnt true.  Bo's team have actually done well compared to where they are seeded but they have lost to teams seeded worse than them who upset other teams earlier.  They have under performed their seed 3 times and over performed their seed 4 times and 6 times they have finished where they were seeded.  

The argument has been made about Bo's teams losing to teams that are worse seeds which has definitely happened but Bo's teams have actually outperformed their actual seed by a slim margin

That takes nothing into account about teams they faced.  For example, in 2008, the Badgers were a 3 seed and made it to the Sweet 16.  Thus, they "performed to seed" as only 1-2s are expected to progress to the Elite 8.  However, they lost to 10th seeded Davidson.   Saying that wasn't an underachieving tournament performance because they "weren't expected" to make the Elite 8 is blind to the situation.  Same with the 2011 tournament where they lost to lower seeded Butler in the round of 16.

One of his "overperforms" was 2005 where they made the Elite 8 despite not beating a team seeded higher than 10th.  If you don't want to fault him for for only "performing to seed" don't praise him when the overperform was winning games they were supposed to.  And mind you, slightly outperforming seed isnt very heady stuff for someone we are continually bashed over with "best coach in the country" talk.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2014, 03:39:05 PM »
I am not worried about your research on Bo's performance against seed.  It is unimpressive compared to the coach love he receives.  As much as Vadger fans love him, the badger boards were on fire after a couple of his many NCAA underperformances.  I believe his first year at UW Madison was 2002.  

I did not mean that his D3 record is unimpressive.  I meant that you cannot compare D1 to D3 because in D3 it is more common to win multiple championships in close proximity.  

2002: 8 beats 9 loses 1 Maryland (No upset)
2003: 5 beats 12 & 13 loses 1 seed Kentucky that MU beats to go to Final Four but no upset (would've killed for Wisconsin to be the team we beat instead 6pts from happening)
2004: 6 beats 11 loses 3 Pittsburgh. (No upset)
2005: 6 beats 11, 14, 10 loses 1 North Carolina. (No upset)
2006: 9 loses to 8 Arizona. (No upset)
2007: 2 beats 15 loses 7 UNLV. (Upset)
2008: 3 beats 14 & 11 loses 10 Davidson (Upset but keep in mind Stephen Curry is on Davidson)
2009: 12 beats 5 loses 4 Xavier. (UW Upsets)
2010: 4 beat 13 loses 12 Cornell. (Upset)
2011: 4 beats 13 & 5 loses 8 Butler. (Upset but keep in mind Shelvin Mack is on this Butler)
2012: 4 beats 13 & 5 loses 1 Syracuse. (No upset)
2013: 5 loses 12 Mississippi (Upset)
2014: 2 beats 15, 7, 6, 1 loses 8 Kentucky. (UW upsets then gets upset)

I see five upsets. I'd barely call a Curry led Davidson team winning an upset. I'd barely call last year's Kentucky team winning an
Upset same with the Mac led Butler team that took down a 1 Pitt and 2 Florida an upset. But that's a judgement call I guess either way it's not abysmal they don't upset a lot and pretty much do exactly what they're seeded to do.
Maigh Eo for Sam

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2014, 03:43:06 PM »
But that's a judgement call I guess either way it's not abysmal they don't upset a lot and pretty much do exactly what they're seeded to do.

but now the committee knows they have secret scrimmages too, Bo better not let it get out if they lose a scrimmage, although I guess that a worse seed will lessen his under-performances

jjfanec

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2014, 03:51:22 PM »
That takes nothing into account about teams they faced.  For example, in 2008, the Badgers were a 3 seed and made it to the Sweet 16.  Thus, they "performed to seed" as only 1-2s are expected to progress to the Elite 8.  However, they lost to 10th seeded Davidson.   Saying that wasn't an underachieving tournament performance because they "weren't expected" to make the Elite 8 is blind to the situation.  Same with the 2011 tournament where they lost to lower seeded Butler in the round of 16.

One of his "overperforms" was 2005 where they made the Elite 8 despite not beating a team seeded higher than 10th.  If you don't want to fault him for for only "performing to seed" don't praise him when the overperform was winning games they were supposed to.  And mind you, slightly outperforming seed isnt very heady stuff for someone we are continually bashed over with "best coach in the country" talk.

I wasnt praising him for over performing. I actually said the argument can be made that Bo's teams have struggled beating higher seeds in the tournament.  I wouldnt argue that.  I just pointed out that Bo's teams have actually performed quite well when it comes to how they are seeded. 

It is just odd to me when someone uses Davidson and Butler to show "low seeds" Bo should have beaten.  One team made the NCAA championship game.  The other team had Steph Curry and lost by 2 to eventual champion Kansas.

I am making zero comments about Bo being the best coach in the country.  I do think he is in the top 10 or so but I wouldnt say he is the best.  It is odd how hard it is for some Marquette fans to recognize Bo is a very good coach.

MU Buff

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #118 on: October 20, 2014, 04:46:33 PM »
It is odd how hard it is for some Marquette fans to recognize Bo is a very good coach.

Why does that surprise you? There's also plenty of Wisconsin fans who do everything they can to tear down Marquette. Every team in the world has fans that will always try to underplay their rivals accomplishments. That's how the average fan is, it's not odd at all.

willie warrior

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #119 on: October 20, 2014, 06:25:10 PM »
Why on a Marquette Basketball board are we even arguing or talking about UW coach's record and abilities? He is a good coach who is a douche bag. Makes you wonder about how much of a good coach he is. If you are a Warrior, who the hell cares about Bo Ryan?
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2014, 06:43:42 PM »
Why on a Marquette Basketball board are we even arguing or talking about UW coach's record and abilities? He is a good coach who is a douche bag. Makes you wonder about how much of a good coach he is. If you are a Warrior, who the hell cares about Bo Ryan?

Because real warriors respect their enemies.  He's a good coach and while I'll hate him to my grave I will not diminish someone's accomplishments particularly because that's exactly what a badger fan would do to us. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

willie warrior

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2014, 08:14:35 PM »
Because real warriors respect their enemies.  He's a good coach and while I'll hate him to my grave I will not diminish someone's accomplishments particularly because that's exactly what a badger fan would do to us. 
But why waste time on an MU board? And there is no respect for a guy that handled the run-off of the Iowa kid so classlessly.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

OnWisconsin

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2014, 09:47:25 AM »
Not sure how Badger fans, and the Badger board specifically, are going to be able to function this year without screaming every week about how disrespected they are in the media.

Also, I know potential is everything in the NBA, but I still can't figure how Dekker is still projected as a lottery pick.  He's now a Junior, so he's past the "raw, untapped talent" level where people like Noah Vonleh or Alex Lens would fall in, but yet I can't recall him dominating or taking over games like you would expect an older lottery pick to.  Not saying he's a bad player, of course we'd love to have him, but I'm not sold on him being one of those lottery pick studs.  Hell, I still think he's a good distance away from Gordon Hayward when he declared.

The numbers don't seem to back up your sentiment. Keep in mind that Hayward played in the Horizon League. Poor competition.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/gordon-hayward-1.html


OnWisconsin

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2014, 10:09:56 AM »
Look at it in depth.  You may be surprised how awful it is since he's been there.  

There were a couple of years Rodent were howling.

I have to ask, is 20-14 that bad?

Since Al McGuire, who has done better at Marquette?

GGGG

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Re: Guarding Kaminsky
« Reply #124 on: October 21, 2014, 10:14:11 AM »
The numbers don't seem to back up your sentiment. Keep in mind that Hayward played in the Horizon League. Poor competition.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/gordon-hayward-1.html


Agreed.  If you look at season stats as a whole, Dekker last year at least matches Heyward's last year and in some cases exceeds it.

Here is the difference.  In the six game run in the NCAA tournament, Heyward scored 13, 12, 17, 22, 19, 12 and was clearly the alpha-dog on that team.  In the five games UW played last year, Dekker scored 11, 12, 7, 7, 15 and was behind Kaminsky.

But Heyward did that by shooting only 37.3% (25/67).  Dekker played a smaller role but was more efficient shooting 44.7% (17/38).

I actually think Dekker's game is a little better than Heyward's.