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Author Topic: Madness Thoughts  (Read 34826 times)

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2014, 04:45:05 PM »
I recently read a bit about coaching in soccer and the fallacy that's been perpetuated that screaming produces improved performance. The argument is that a lot of it has to with regression to the mean occurring all the time, whether it's athletic performance, office work, flying a plane, etc. So when an athlete performs poorly, the coach yells and the athlete does better the next time. When an athlete does well, the coach praises and the athlete does worse the next time, so it registers that being loud and mean all the time is the best approach. In reality, an athlete who performs below standard is more likely to do better next time anyway, and the opposite applies to a higher than average performance.

Yelling can still work, but there's more psychological subtlety to it than just spouting off whenever something doesn't go well.

Facts on scoop? What a concept.

GGGG

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2014, 04:58:45 PM »
I'm glad to hear that he yelled at the team.  It says to me that Wojo is not going to be content to just "mail in" this season and play for next with his big recruiting class.  I didn't go to the scrimmage but from the reports its sounds like nobody played that well and some of the guys didn't seem that focused.  One  of the concerns I had with Wojo and his staff of "recent x-players" is that they might be too likely to fall into identifying with the players and going easy on them as a result.  To use a "Buzz-ism" this team is going to have no margin for error.  They have to bring it every game or they will lose to average teams and have no chance against good teams.  Need to set that expectation right away.


I have no idea what that has to do with yelling and "fire."  You seem to be saying that it is a sign that he is going to care more, but that doesn't seem right to me.


I recently read a bit about coaching in soccer and the fallacy that's been perpetuated that screaming produces improved performance. The argument is that a lot of it has to with regression to the mean occurring all the time, whether it's athletic performance, office work, flying a plane, etc. So when an athlete performs poorly, the coach yells and the athlete does better the next time. When an athlete does well, the coach praises and the athlete does worse the next time, so it registers that being loud and mean all the time is the best approach. In reality, an athlete who performs below standard is more likely to do better next time anyway, and the opposite applies to a higher than average performance.

Yelling can still work, but there's more psychological subtlety to it than just spouting off whenever something doesn't go well.

Agreed.  Thanks for the insight.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 05:01:17 PM by The Sultan of Sunshine »

NotAnAlum

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2014, 05:43:18 PM »

I have no idea what that has to do with yelling and "fire."  You seem to be saying that it is a sign that he is going to care more, but that doesn't seem right to me.

The team plays sloppy and doesn't seem to take the scrimmage seriously.  The coach makes it clear, by yelling afterwards, that he expects much better play.  Doesn't seem all that complicated to me.
Would you have preferred he tell them, "You guys sure didn't look good but that's ok, you were tried and are still gelling.  When you're ready I'm sure you'll play better.  Don't sweat it"
 ?-( 

GGGG

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2014, 05:47:29 PM »
The team plays sloppy and doesn't seem to take the scrimmage seriously.  The coach makes it clear, by yelling afterwards, that he expects much better play.  Doesn't seem all that complicated to me.
Would you have preferred he tell them, "You guys sure didn't look good but that's ok, you were tried and are still gelling.  When you're ready I'm sure you'll play better.  Don't sweat it"
 ?-( 


I prefer him to use whatever tactics work.  Some good coaches yell...some don't.  Some bad coaches yell...some don't.

Yelling doesn't mean better coaching or that they care more.  That's all I'm saying.

MUchamp22

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2014, 06:03:13 PM »
All I was trying to say about him having some "fire" was that its nice to see he can get mad when things don't go how he wants. Its nice cause all we have seen from Wojo at this point are smiles and scripted answers in interviews.

Also, I don't think there has ever been a successful coach who doesn't ever yell. I guarantee you all D1 coaches yell at some point. It's an easy way to get your point across. I'm not saying yelling shows you're a good coach, but it is something that happens across the board.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 06:04:46 PM by draino22 »

NotAnAlum

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2014, 07:51:29 PM »
I agree.  It was done behind closed doors, he was justified based on the performance of the team.  No reason to believe he is the second coming of Bobby Knight.  If the team appears more focused in the next scrimmage, the way the message was delivered must have been a success.  If not and this becomes a pattern everybody can worry if then if they want.  Next case.

Johnny B

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2014, 07:56:29 PM »
LOL. All coaches yell,now is the yelling constructive or demoralizing like mike rice.

GGGG

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2014, 08:14:27 PM »
I agree.  It was done behind closed doors, he was justified based on the performance of the team.  No reason to believe he is the second coming of Bobby Knight.  If the team appears more focused in the next scrimmage, the way the message was delivered must have been a success.  If not and this becomes a pattern everybody can worry if then if they want.  Next case.


Seriously what is the deal here?  I never disputed that.  Ever.

What I had trouble with was the phrase "its good to know Wojo has some fire in him" because he screamed at the team.  To me screaming at the team is the coaching technique he decided to employ at the time.  I don't think it shows "fire."  I don't think that if decided not to scream that it wouldn't necessarily be bad, nor would it show a lack of "fire."

Again, for the umpteeth time, I have no problem with Wojo screaming at the team. 

HallSports

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2014, 08:21:09 PM »
I once had a football coach yell at me for not running full speed in a drill.  He said after that the day he stops yelling at me is the day he gave up on me.  Not saying someone has to yell to be a good coach, but it can also be effective in motivating the team.  Given their effort in the scrimmage they should have been yelled at. 

As long as as Wojo doesn't start having yelling tantrums (i.e. I'm a man, I'm 40) during press conferences I'm good. 

Pakuni

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #84 on: October 12, 2014, 08:53:15 PM »
So wait .... it took reports of him yelling after a scrimmage to confirm that Wojo has some "fire" in him?
Hmmm. I kinda figured it was a given with that guy.

Johnny B

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #85 on: October 12, 2014, 09:42:15 PM »
So wait .... it took reports of him yelling after a scrimmage to confirm that Wojo has some "fire" in him?
Hmmm. I kinda figured it was a given with that guy.
right

JakeBarnes

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #86 on: October 12, 2014, 11:38:40 PM »
Adding #yellgate to the list of Scoop concerns
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


Nevada233

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2014, 04:39:17 AM »
+1

This analysis is a waste of time.  I saw a bunch of kids out there screwing around and having fun and we're analyzing it is if were getting ready to go to the NCAA tournament.

Here's all the analysis you need to know ... everybody played and nobody's hurt ... next

Right a Scrimmage that included a dunk contest..... That like making an professional analysis of a pick up game at the park, lets not jump the shark for this season....

willie warrior

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2014, 06:37:36 AM »
right
Wait till the floor slapping starts. Prediction: Derrick will be the first to do it. Any other guesses? Somebody should start a pool.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2014, 06:58:36 AM »
I know this is a little late but my friend who is a trainer told me Wojo was screaming at the guys after the scrimmage. Even called it a disgrace...
Honestly though, its good to know Wojo has some fire in him

I hope this is not true!!

All I could think of is when Dave Wannstedt, the former Bears head coach, used to scream at his players and make his starters play extra series in early preseason games because they dogged it. It was a sign that he was a poor coach and the next five years of screwing up the Bears prove it. (then he confirmed what a crappy coach he was by doing the same The U)

No matter how bad or how good you look in a scrimmage, it's a scrimmage!  It's screwing around, it's not serious.  It doesn't matter it doesn't deserve to be yelled that no matter what you did.  Especially after the three point contest was canceled, the Rim broke, The fire alarm went off, and the women's team took forever.  All the excitement was taken out of the room.

Yelling too much is a sign that you've lost control and I hope that's not the case Wojo.

madtownwarrior

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2014, 07:18:36 AM »
I literally did a facepalm after reading this post.    Good lord, get a grip...

I hope this is not true!!

All I could think of is when Dave Wannstedt, the former Bears head coach, used to scream at his players and make his starters play extra series in early preseason games because they dogged it. It was a sign that he was a poor coach and the next five years of screwing up the Bears prove it. (then he confirmed what a crappy coach he was by doing the same The U)

No matter how bad or how good you look in a scrimmage, it's a scrimmage!  It's screwing around, it's not serious.  It doesn't matter it doesn't deserve to be yelled that no matter what you did.  Especially after the three point contest was canceled, the Rim broke, The fire alarm went off, and the women's team took forever.  All the excitement was taken out of the room.

Yelling too much is a sign that you've lost control and I hope that's not the case Wojo.


DienerTime34

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2014, 07:23:08 AM »
Well, considering a loss to K-State in a preseason scrimmage torpedoed our seed one year, you can't say scrimmages aren't important.

avid1010

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #92 on: October 13, 2014, 07:26:22 AM »
I hope this is not true!!

All I could think of is when Dave Wannstedt, the former Bears head coach, used to scream at his players and make his starters play extra series in early preseason games because they dogged it. It was a sign that he was a poor coach and the next five years of screwing up the Bears prove it. (then he confirmed what a crappy coach he was by doing the same The U)

No matter how bad or how good you look in a scrimmage, it's a scrimmage!  It's screwing around, it's not serious.  It doesn't matter it doesn't deserve to be yelled that no matter what you did.  Especially after the three point contest was canceled, the Rim broke, The fire alarm went off, and the women's team took forever.  All the excitement was taken out of the room.

Yelling too much is a sign that you've lost control and I hope that's not the case Wojo.


quick...someone find an example of a championship winning coach that yelled after a scrimmage.  wojo had every right to yell after that scrimmage, and my guess is it was very well thought out and calculated.  the scrimmage also wasn't set up like a typical have fun, get up and down the court, don't play defense type thing.  they were pressing and dogging each other on defense...took some time at the half.  i think he was using the scrimmage as a coaching moment, and when the players didn't respond, he let them have it.  anyone at that scrimmage will tell you it was downright painful.  maybe 1/3 of the crowd remained by the time it was over.  

avid1010

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #93 on: October 13, 2014, 07:30:20 AM »
Right a Scrimmage that included a dunk contest..... That like making an professional analysis of a pick up game at the park, lets not jump the shark for this season....
i would say that if they were told to play hard, the dunk contest has nothing to do with it.  step on the court and play hard.  there are also plenty of scouts/coaches that make professional analysis based upon scrimmages, and if wojo wanted them to play at a practice level...it's fair to do so.  i'm not sure what i saw on friday night...

ThatDude

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2014, 08:29:10 AM »
I hope this is not true!!

All I could think of is when Dave Wannstedt, the former Bears head coach, used to scream at his players and make his starters play extra series in early preseason games because they dogged it. It was a sign that he was a poor coach and the next five years of screwing up the Bears prove it. (then he confirmed what a crappy coach he was by doing the same The U)

No matter how bad or how good you look in a scrimmage, it's a scrimmage!  It's screwing around, it's not serious.  It doesn't matter it doesn't deserve to be yelled that no matter what you did.  Especially after the three point contest was canceled, the Rim broke, The fire alarm went off, and the women's team took forever.  All the excitement was taken out of the room.

Yelling too much is a sign that you've lost control and I hope that's not the case Wojo.


Yes its a scrimmage, but its still practice. Thats good he yelled

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2014, 08:30:26 AM »
i would say that if they were told to play hard, the dunk contest has nothing to do with it.  step on the court and play hard.  there are also plenty of scouts/coaches that make professional analysis based upon scrimmages, and if wojo wanted them to play at a practice level...it's fair to do so.  i'm not sure what i saw on friday night...

Those scrimmages are at the end of the season when everyone is on shape and understand their seriousness, as you are trying to impress a professional scout.

None of those scrimmages are done on a Friday night in front of hundreds of drunk fans, after a women's scrimmage, a dunk contest, and a cancelled three point competition with the coaches.

Look I agree they did not look that good but I also think it is indicative of nothing.  As I said on page one, anyone that is analyzing last Friday night as if it was a serious effort, and if the coaches are yelling at them as if they lost a real game, needs to get a grip.  Not those like me that are arguing that ANALyzing Friday was a waste of time Madtown.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2014, 08:32:23 AM »
Yes its a scrimmage, but its still practice. Thats good he yelled

No, practice was earlier in the day.  That was 20 minutes of screwing around and having fun.

kmwtrucks

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2014, 08:38:18 AM »
Anything that stems from a lack of Mental focus and a Lack of Effort you cannot let go.  Missing shots or things along those lines are quite different.  I think you cannot let that go or it says that its acceptable sometimes.  The best player's are for the most part also the best practice player's usually as well. 

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2014, 08:45:25 AM »
Anything that stems from a lack of Mental focus and a Lack of Effort you cannot let go.  Missing shots or things along those lines are quite different.  I think you cannot let that go or it says that its acceptable sometimes.  The best player's are for the most part also the best practice player's usually as well. 

So, guys having fund at 9PM on Friday night after sitting around almost two hours watching the festivities, and having a full practice and classes earlier in the day, are going to get yelled at for missing an open shot as if it is no different than playing Georgetown in February?

This might be worse than Bobbly Knight right before he was shown the door.

jficke13

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Re: Madness Thoughts
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2014, 08:48:10 AM »
Is anyone really surprised that Wojo would work his players' patoots off behind close doors? That he'd yell at them behind closed doors?

Go back and re-read the onwisconsin.com article about the guy. He has a well-documented history of setting a bar for his teammates and players above where they are and then expecting, encouraging, and seeing those teammates and players clear that bar.