Jon Rothstein on Marquette

[NersEllenson]

Lower expectations and the excitement/honeymoon phase that come with a new coach will give that perception. If Wojo sits players who are wildly inconsistent, lapse on defense, etc., the board will mostly line up with him and against the benched players. 180 degree turnaround from last year.

People turned on Buzz last year because the only consistent thing about his coaching was to play guys who were consistently unproductive and one dimensional.  Meanwhile, he has much more talented players riding the bench, while the losses were stacking up.  If your consistently unproductive guys aren't getting the job done, you are a hell of a lot better off playing the more talented guy that might*  (in your eyes) be wildly inconsistent.

Guess what?  You know where inconsistency originates from?  Inconsistency.  And Buzz was totally and complete inconsistent in his whole approach last year, other than for Derrick and Jake - the two guys who were the most limited.  It was beyond crazy. 

[wadesworld]

Someone stated this here a number of months ago based on some very good intel from MU BB HQ, and was promptly attacked for it.  Not what is said here, but who says the what.

He's going to be pretty good this year, people need to harbor their expectations, he's a longer term play.  Agree with Rothstein.

People here were saying that they expect Luke Fischer to be one of the best bigs in the Big East this season?  That's news to me, I'd love to see examples of those posts.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

People turned on Buzz last year because the only consistent thing about his coaching was to play guys who were consistently unproductive and one dimensional.  Meanwhile, he has much more talented players riding the bench, while the losses were stacking up.  If your consistently unproductive guys aren't getting the job done, you are a hell of a lot better off playing the more talented guy that might*  (in your eyes) be wildly inconsistent.

Guess what?  You know where inconsistency originates from?  Inconsistency.  And Buzz was totally and complete inconsistent in his whole approach last year, other than for Derrick and Jake - the two guys who were the most limited.  It was beyond crazy. 

You're not wrong, but Buzz always had crazy rotations and philosophies. When they worked, we all cheered and predicted multiple final 4's... when it didn't work, we turned on him instantly.

Fans are a finicky group.

[SVL4]

WOW.  Sure, 17-15 was disappointing but people seem to forget that we were in almost every game last season.  As a point guard that isn't the star of the team, isn't your job to put the team in position to win?  How many L's would have been W's with a marginal shooting percentage improvement from derrick?  Maybe he made that marginal improvement?  How many L's would have been W's if we had someone at any position who could create his own shot?  I don't think last years team was as broken as everyone seems to describe it as.

[tower912]

WOW.  Sure, 17-15 was disappointing but people seem to forget that we were in almost every game last season.  As a point guard that isn't the star of the team, isn't your job to put the team in position to win?  How many L's would have been W's with a marginal shooting percentage improvement from derrick?  Maybe he made that marginal improvement?  How many L's would have been W's if we had someone at any position who could create his own shot?  I don't think last years team was as broken as everyone seems to describe it as.

You bring up a very good point.   Last year's team lost games that in previous years Buzz's teams found ways to win.   Lots of close losses.   Frequently lacking the one big stop, or one big basket, or one big momentum play.   Many theories have been put forward.   

[NersEllenson]

You're not wrong, but Buzz always had crazy rotations and philosophies. When they worked, we all cheered and predicted multiple final 4's... when it didn't work, we turned on him instantly.

Fans are a finicky group.

Except the only area Buzz wouldn't get "crazy" last season was to deviate from playing Derrick and Jake more minutes than any two players on the team.  This was the beef.  He jacked around with all the other guys on the team, most of whom were more talented than Derrick and Jake - yet he just couldn't bring himself to radically change his starting backcourt, when it was plain as day the team wasn't going to win with those guys being 30+ minute per game players.  And let's not even talk about benching Burton for 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of a must win game, in a game that Burton was dominating up to that point.

[GGGG]

And let's not even talk about benching Burton for 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of a must win game, in a game that Burton was dominating up to that point.

You posted that last week and it is wrong.  I responded but you must not have seen it.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44873.msg653944#msg653944

BTW, I noticed that I said that Jamil missed two "lay-ups" but they were obviously free throws.

[Lennys Tap]

This was the beef.  He jacked around with all the other guys on the team

No he didn't. Otule and Gardner had always pretty much split time. Last year they did it again, though Gardner got more time than in the past. Jamil got big minutes from day one through the end of the season. Todd started out the season hurt, then got suspended. Once back to good health and good graces, he got big, consistent minutes too.

[Lennys Tap]

You posted that last week and it is wrong.  I responded but you must not have seen it.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44873.msg653944#msg653944

Wow. The truth is much different from the Ners narrative. Thanks for sharing.

[River rat]

I had put Ners on ignore last year becuase of all this crap with Derrick and Dawson.  It looks like it about time to do it again.
I will say this Derrick is not he greatest player that has ever donned a MU uniform and he is also most likely not the point guard that is going to lead a very successful team.  Not sure that anyone would disagree with you on this . 
The thing I cannot grasp though is the equal fervor that you argue for John Dawson.  I am sorry but I have watched John Dawson every minute he played last year and saw very little to nothing that would make me think he was the answer.  He had one horrible turnover after another, did not have the handle for a PG, and did nothing to create offense for his team.  He also had very poor shot selection.   
Not sure why you tie the 2 together,  My guess is Dawson will get the least amount of minutes of any guard this year, and Buzz is no longer the coach.  So maybe two coaches and a majority of fans are seeing something different than you.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Except the only area Buzz wouldn't get "crazy" last season was to deviate from playing Derrick and Jake more minutes than any two players on the team.  This was the beef.  He jacked around with all the other guys on the team, most of whom were more talented than Derrick and Jake - yet he just couldn't bring himself to radically change his starting backcourt, when it was plain as day the team wasn't going to win with those guys being 30+ minute per game players.  And let's not even talk about benching Burton for 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of a must win game, in a game that Burton was dominating up to that point.

I'm not disagreeing with you or getting into specifics. I'm just pointing out that in the grand scheme of things, Buzz was the same stubborn, quirky, sometimes brilliant, sometimes idiotic coach last year that he was in previous seasons.

It didn't work last season. No disagreement here.

But, fundamentally, he was the same guy that you were in love with in previous years.

Maybe you weren't in love with Buzz, but just in love with winning?

[Lennys Tap]

I'm not disagreeing with you or getting into specifics. I'm just pointing out that in the grand scheme of things, Buzz was the same stubborn, quirky, sometimes brilliant, sometimes idiotic coach last year that he was in previous seasons.

It didn't work last season. No disagreement here.

But, fundamentally, he was the same guy that you were in love with in previous years.

Maybe you weren't in love with Buzz, but just in love with winning?

Of course your right, but...

Ners rationalized himself into a corner. He's was deeply, head over heels in love. Or so he thought. Then the object of his affection gained 10 lbs. and developed a small blemish. He wanted out, but wasn't ok with being perceived as a guy shallow enough to abandon his love over something like that. So...he insisted it wasn't the 10 lbs. or the blemish. His love had drastically changed. Really gone crazy. And betrayed him. He didn't throw his love under the bus, it was the other way around. Totally not logical, not believable, but that's his story and he's stickin' to it.

[NersEllenson]

I'm not disagreeing with you or getting into specifics. I'm just pointing out that in the grand scheme of things, Buzz was the same stubborn, quirky, sometimes brilliant, sometimes idiotic coach last year that he was in previous seasons.

It didn't work last season. No disagreement here.

But, fundamentally, he was the same guy that you were in love with in previous years.

Maybe you weren't in love with Buzz, but just in love with winning?

Buzz wasn't the same guy as in previous years...and his departure at the end of the season proved that.  There are numerous sources that know he changed from a humble guy to an ego maniac who made people flush his toilet bowls of sh$t. 

I loved the Buzz of the first 4-5 years, but when he became a brat even after winning the power struggle with Larry, and getting to work under athletic friendly admin of Wild and Cords, and still couldn't be happy - along with his bizarre coaching decisions of early last season that only intensified into conference play - yea, the love affair ended.  He turned out to be a phony - and I don't have too much pride to say that my perceptions of him his first 4-5 years, ultimately turned out wrong as to what his ultimate character was:  A thin skinned hypocrite that preached toughness yet ultimately exhibited little.  At the first sign of discontent and adversity and turned and bailed (which I never thought I'd be thankful for, but am now GLAD he's gone.)  We are better off with Wojo who will prove to be a far more level-headed guy, and a guy who seems to be able to recruit pretty well....and should be able to coach fairly well having played the game in college and having 13 years of an apprenticeship under one of the great coaches in the game.

[GGGG]

Buzz wasn't the same guy as in previous years...and his departure at the end of the season proved that.  There are numerous sources that know he changed from a humble guy to an ego maniac who made people flush his toilet bowls of sh$t. 

Buzz was never as humble as he was made out to be.  Believe me.

[NersEllenson]

Buzz was never as humble as he was made out to be.  Believe me.

I agree with you...he played possum quite a bit from day one....yet the level of his humility went from perhaps modestly humble in year 1, to insufferably egotistical by year 6.

[Lennys Tap]

  There are numerous sources that know he changed from a humble guy to an ego maniac who made people flush his toilet bowls of sh$t. 

Really? He had "people" whose job it was "to flush his toilet bowls of sh$t"? You actually believe that? You are one gullible hater.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Buzz wasn't the same guy as in previous years...and his departure at the end of the season proved that.  There are numerous sources that know he changed from a humble guy to an ego maniac who made people flush his toilet bowls of sh$t. 

I loved the Buzz of the first 4-5 years, but when he became a brat even after winning the power struggle with Larry, and getting to work under athletic friendly admin of Wild and Cords, and still couldn't be happy - along with his bizarre coaching decisions of early last season that only intensified into conference play - yea, the love affair ended.  He turned out to be a phony - and I don't have too much pride to say that my perceptions of him his first 4-5 years, ultimately turned out wrong as to what his ultimate character was:  A thin skinned hypocrite that preached toughness yet ultimately exhibited little.  At the first sign of discontent and adversity and turned and bailed (which I never thought I'd be thankful for, but am now GLAD he's gone.)  We are better off with Wojo who will prove to be a far more level-headed guy, and a guy who seems to be able to recruit pretty well....and should be able to coach fairly well having played the game in college and having 13 years of an apprenticeship under one of the great coaches in the game.

I don't disagree, and that's kind of my point.

In the first 4 or 5 years, you didn't see the cracks in the veneer because the dude was winning.

Fundamentally, I don't think Buzz Williams was any different the day he left MU. He's a fully formed personality. Lots of theories on life, basketball, etc. When he was winning, it seems like you bought into all of it. When Buzz had a losing season, then suddenly you think he's a phony.

Buzz was always phony baloney. You/we bought it because he was winning.

[NersEllenson]

Really? He had "people" whose job it was "to flush his toilet bowls of sh$t"? You actually believe that? You are one gullible hater.

Yes - it is true.  You truly are one naive loyalist.  It's actually comical how you can't find room to criticize Buzz.  Yet you rail against Chicos and his constant defenses of Tom Crean - and now you are the same guy, but for Buzz.

Have you admired Buzz's statements since leaving MU, and his explanation?  BAsically took a crap on the Big East, and its TV deal...and then goes on to say he was afraid he couldn't live up to the expectations of the MU fan base!!  

At least Crean went to a blueblood program.  Buzz?  To an outhouse.  And..to a place where he'll be able to function okay because little is expected of that program.  Talk about a winner - hey I need a low bar set for me and my ego, because if too much is expected of me - I won't be able to hack it if I can't deliver on those expectations.

[CTWarrior]

You bring up a very good point.   Last year's team lost games that in previous years Buzz's teams found ways to win.   Lots of close losses.   Frequently lacking the one big stop, or one big basket, or one big momentum play.   Many theories have been put forward.  

It is not DWil's poor shooting percentage in a vacuum that was the problem.  It was our opponent's total and complete lack of respect for him that caused problems for everybody.  Because you never had to guard him, you could mirror Jake Thomas everywhere on the floor, rendering him useless, and still double-team the lane without worry of repercussions.  So now you have two guards who can't score and Gardner double-teamed before he even catches the ball without stretching the defense or causing defensive crazy rotations.  

The fact that 3 or 4 times a game against good comp one of Derricks 9 million wing to wing passes was turned into a basket does not erase all of the above, which I think is the crux of Ners' argument.  If our other players had more freedom of movement maybe those tight losses would have been wins and our big losses would have been the tight losses.

Substitute Todd Mayo for Jake Thomas and the problem remains the same, except Todd could drive on a tight defender, but still no space to operate.

[NersEllenson]

I don't disagree, and that's kind of my point.

In the first 4 or 5 years, you didn't see the cracks in the veneer because the dude was winning.

Fundamentally, I don't think Buzz Williams was any different the day he left MU. He's a fully formed personality. Lots of theories on life, basketball, etc. When he was winning, it seems like you bought into all of it. When Buzz had a losing season, then suddenly you think he's a phony.

Buzz was always phony baloney. You/we bought it because he was winning.

I agree with most of what you write - and think we all know Buzz wasn't the country bumpkin he tried to put himself off as being.  We all recognized he was a sharp and calculating dude, who also authored some great stories and tales.

And I agree, so long as Buzz was winning, his schtick was all good.  Yet when his schtick about preaching toughness and character gets tested for the first time, he ultimately reveals he had neither - that's where it turns.  Hypocrites are the worst.  

And because I believe Buzz is quite sharp, I also believe he knew what he was doing by continuing to play Derrick and Jake more minutes than any other guys on the team - that he was greatly hampering the team's ability to win - and since he left at the end of the year, he was ultimately checked out of MU and his petty ego certainly wouldn't be above giving Cords and Wild an F-You on the way out the door, for them not giving into all of his demands.

It makes ZERO sense as to why Buzz tried all kinds of other lineup tinkers, other than the 2 that 80% of the fan base were screaming for - other than out of sheer stubbornness, or out of a reality that he didn't care about winning.  It was painfully obvious to even the most naive of basketball fans that it was going to be next to impossible to win, when you play 2 guys in the backcourt that are that limited.

Even more maddening of course was the ONE game he deviated from it - Georgetown - we get perhaps our best win of the year on the road - and the guy riding the bench for 30 minutes a game behind the other guy, was a key ingredient as to why we won.  Think you might want to try it again, yet what happened?  8 minutes the next game against Nova.  Wow.

[PistolPete]

I agree with most of what you write - and think we all know Buzz wasn't the country bumpkin he tried to put himself off as being.  We all recognized he was a sharp and calculating dude, who also authored some great stories and tales.

And I agree, so long as Buzz was winning, his schtick was all good.  Yet when his schtick about preaching toughness and character gets tested for the first time, he ultimately reveals he had neither - that's where it turns.  Hypocrites are the worst.  

And because I believe Buzz is quite sharp, I also believe he knew what he was doing by continuing to play Derrick and Jake more minutes than any other guys on the team - that he was greatly hampering the team's ability to win - and since he left at the end of the year, he was ultimately checked out of MU and his petty ego certainly wouldn't be above giving Cords and Wild an F-You on the way out the door, for them not giving into all of his demands.

It makes ZERO sense as to why Buzz tried all kinds of other lineup tinkers, other than the 2 that 80% of the fan base were screaming for - other than out of sheer stubbornness, or out of a reality that he didn't care about winning.  It was painfully obvious to even the most naive of basketball fans that it was going to be next to impossible to win, when you play 2 guys in the backcourt that are that limited.

Even more maddening of course was the ONE game he deviated from it - Georgetown - we get perhaps our best win of the year on the road - and the guy riding the bench for 30 minutes a game behind the other guy, was a key ingredient as to why we won.  Think you might want to try it again, yet what happened?  8 minutes the next game against Nova.  Wow.

I've come to accept the theory that Buzz was sticking it to the administration by playing the high character kids in place of those that were far more talented.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I agree with most of what you write - and think we all know Buzz wasn't the country bumpkin he tried to put himself off as being.  We all recognized he was a sharp and calculating dude, who also authored some great stories and tales.

And I agree, so long as Buzz was winning, his schtick was all good.  Yet when his schtick about preaching toughness and character gets tested for the first time, he ultimately reveals he had neither - that's where it turns.  Hypocrites are the worst.  

And because I believe Buzz is quite sharp, I also believe he knew what he was doing by continuing to play Derrick and Jake more minutes than any other guys on the team - that he was greatly hampering the team's ability to win - and since he left at the end of the year, he was ultimately checked out of MU and his petty ego certainly wouldn't be above giving Cords and Wild an F-You on the way out the door, for them not giving into all of his demands.

It makes ZERO sense as to why Buzz tried all kinds of other lineup tinkers, other than the 2 that 80% of the fan base were screaming for - other than out of sheer stubbornness, or out of a reality that he didn't care about winning.  It was painfully obvious to even the most naive of basketball fans that it was going to be next to impossible to win, when you play 2 guys in the backcourt that are that limited.

Even more maddening of course was the ONE game he deviated from it - Georgetown - we get perhaps our best win of the year on the road - and the guy riding the bench for 30 minutes a game behind the other guy, was a key ingredient as to why we won.  Think you might want to try it again, yet what happened?  8 minutes the next game against Nova.  Wow.

But again, Buzz was ALWAYS weird with rotations. That's not new.

He started Erik Williams over Jae. He claimed Derrick was better than Junior, but started Junior. He brought DJO off of the bench when he first arrived. He would do offense/defense subs with DG and CO. I believe Junior played fresh off of his injury as a frosh against syracuse, but then didn't play in the couple of games following (admittedly, I'm going from memory). He signed Mbao late, and played him, but Mbao never even scored in practice. Buzz played trent lockett a ton of minutes, and people were screaming for somebody else. The list goes on.

Buzz was always weird. I have a hard time believing he got weirder/more stubborn in the end just to stick it to MU.

Buzz was always weird and stubborn, but we liked it when it worked.

[NersEllenson]

But again, Buzz was ALWAYS weird with rotations. That's not new.

He started Erik Williams over Jae. He claimed Derrick was better than Junior, but started Junior. He brought DJO off of the bench when he first arrived. He would do offense/defense subs with DG and CO. I believe Junior played fresh off of his injury as a frosh against syracuse, but then didn't play in the couple of games following (admittedly, I'm going from memory). He signed Mbao late, and played him, but Mbao never even scored in practice. Buzz played trent lockett a ton of minutes, and people were screaming for somebody else. The list goes on.

Buzz was always weird. I have a hard time believing he got weirder/more stubborn in the end just to stick it to MU.

Buzz was always weird and stubborn, but we liked it when it worked.

Yes, Buzz did a few quirky things along the way as you mention.  I don't disagree that he did do offense/defense substitutions at times with Otule and Gardner throughout their careers.  I could live with that - as it was VERY situation specific - and it involved just those two guys.

Lockett?  Yes, very frustrating early on, yet the guy had some pretty good skins on the wall coming into MU as a transfer senior.  Lockett had shown he could play at a decent clip at high major level.

Jake and Derrick?  Well, neither had much in the way of skins on the wall at this level.

As for claiming Derrick was better than Junior - well, that just goes to show what Buzz said and what was the reality weren't always congruent.  Schtick.  Motivational tactic. Etc.

Erik Williams over Jae to start?  Sure - try to eliminate an early game foul for Jae.  Yet, Jae played 30+ most nights.  Burton didn't see 30 all year.

Mayo?  Well..Todd was good enough to go 30+ against Ohio State early in the year, so he couldn't have been too injured.  And, as we learned he was ONE minute late to practice that cost him the Wisconsin game.  Could Todd have been played more than 23 minutes per game?  Absolutely.  Buzz chose not - other than the last 10 games of the year, and Mayo's performance went through the roof once he was given a fair chance to play through early mistakes and slow starts.  Many guys need some run time/burn to get into their flow - Mayo was one of those guys.  Some can just come in a game and immediately impact it - such as an ideal 6th man.

Refusing to change his backcourt last season was absolutely a case of being beyond stubborn. Either Buzz's ego was SO big that thought he could win with those guys playing 30 (even when he said we are playing 4 on 5), or he was sticking it to admin on his way out the door.  Neither scenario boded well, and isn't what a balanced or high character individual would do.

[Lennys Tap]

I've come to accept the theory that Buzz was sticking it to the administration by playing the high character kids in place of those that were far more talented.

Great Conclusion Pistol. It explains why he played Todd Mayo so much down the stretch and gave the bulk of the minutes at the 5 to Davante instead of Otule. I swear some of you guys "come to accept" things that are totally contradicted by the facts.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes, Buzz did a few quirky things along the way as you mention.  I don't disagree that he did do offense/defense substitutions at times with Otule and Gardner throughout their careers.  I could live with that - as it was VERY situation specific - and it involved just those two guys.

Lockett?  Yes, very frustrating early on, yet the guy had some pretty good skins on the wall coming into MU as a transfer senior.  Lockett had shown he could play at a decent clip at high major level.

Jake and Derrick?  Well, neither had much in the way of skins on the wall at this level.

As for claiming Derrick was better than Junior - well, that just goes to show what Buzz said and what was the reality weren't always congruent.  Schtick.  Motivational tactic. Etc.

Erik Williams over Jae to start?  Sure - try to eliminate an early game foul for Jae.  Yet, Jae played 30+ most nights.  Burton didn't see 30 all year.

Mayo?  Well..Todd was good enough to go 30+ against Ohio State early in the year, so he couldn't have been too injured.  And, as we learned he was ONE minute late to practice that cost him the Wisconsin game.  Could Todd have been played more than 23 minutes per game?  Absolutely.  Buzz chose not - other than the last 10 games of the year, and Mayo's performance went through the roof once he was given a fair chance to play through early mistakes and slow starts.  Many guys need some run time/burn to get into their flow - Mayo was one of those guys.  Some can just come in a game and immediately impact it - such as an ideal 6th man.

Refusing to change his backcourt last season was absolutely a case of being beyond stubborn. Either Buzz's ego was SO big that thought he could win with those guys playing 30 (even when he said we are playing 4 on 5), or he was sticking it to admin on his way out the door.  Neither scenario boded well, and isn't what a balanced or high character individual would do.

Ya, I'm not really into debating all of the specifics... I'm just saying, Buzz was weird. He was always weird. We know his track record.

While playing Derrick and Jake a lot of minutes was generally ineffective, it wasn't necessarily out of character for Buzz Williams. Buzz always had a "Us vs the World", "I'll show 'em how smart I am!" approach.

We didn't mind when they were winning. When they were losing, we hated him for it.