Campus Expansion

[CTWarrior]

We're facing this situation right now.  My wife and I made the decision to send our kids to private elementary school and high school.  Obviously, with four kids, this has been and continues to be a significant investment.  It's very difficult to calculate ROI on this because it gets into a lot of intangibles, but I wouldn't change it.  However, it will have an effect on the money available for college.

But now we're looking at colleges for the first time.  When I attended college, I never even considered any public schools.  With my son, he's got one public school right at the top of his list (Miami) along with several privates (Elon, Kenyon, Dayton, ND, Georgetown, Catholic U).  Fortunately, we've got a couple of good state schools in Ohio.  Miami happens to be tied with Marquette in the US News rankings.  At this point, if one of the several privates my son likes comes through with a great merit-based package, he might go there.  If not, he'll likely go to Miami.  And I'm comfortable with that because it's a great school.  Frankly, I'd be very surprised if any of the privates he's considering comes up with a package that would bring the cost down to where it's competitive with Miami.  Maybe one will surprise me.  I hope so, if only to give some good options.

You probably already know this, but once you get all your offers, you can go back negotiate with the schools for more grants.  Leverage one offer against another.  We ended up paying a great deal less than the original acceptance letter offer my son got at his first choice by pointing out better offers he got from some other comparable schools.  Do your homework.  Doesn't always work, but it never hurts to ask.

[Atticus]

I graduated in 2004 and was fortunate to not have students loans (partial academic scholly and parents covered the rest). I earned an MBA from Northwestern a few years ago and took out 90k in loans. The company I work for paid for some and loans got returned to me in the form of a personal check. Cashed them and invested them. Loans were just over 5% annually and have managed to net 14% per year on average on loaned money. I'm paying off student loans with capital gains off of...student loans. Not bad!

[StillAWarrior]

Is you avatar from your son's school?  Marquette has a program where they award a half-tuition scholarship to one student from each of the Jesuit high schools in the US:
http://marquette.edu/explore/scholarships-jesuit.php

All you have to do now is talk all the other kids at his school out of applying to Marquette and yours is golden.

At the risk of incurring the ban hammer and well-deserved public ridicule and shame, I have to admit that Marquette isn't on his list at this point.  I consider it a personal failure.

It's an environment thing for him.  When I was picking a school, one of the things that really appealed to me (a small town kid from the mountains) was an urban environment.  That has no appeal at all to him.  He likes the more rural campuses and college towns.  His top three are probably Elon, Kenyon and Miami.  Elon and Kenyon are probably more similar in terms of size and feel.  Miami is considerably larger than the two other schools, but Oxford is definitely a college town and has that same feel -- only bigger.  He's still got Georgetown, Catholic U and Loyola Chicago on his list, but I don't know why -- they aren't at all what he seems to like.  I consider ND kind of in between.  Georgetown and ND have some appeal to him and he says they'll be hard to turn down if they make him an incredible offer.  I don't see that happening.

I think ultimately, it will come down to Elon or Miami.  Fortunately, he likes both schools.  If Elon makes an offer that makes it competitive with Miami, I think he'll go there.  I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that.  I've heard glowing reviews from people I've talked to that have any experience with it, but I honestly don't know much about it.  We haven't even visited.  If Elon doesn't come through with the cash, it'll probably be Miami.

[IL Warrior]

Is this apples to apples though?

If a kid is getting a scholarship at MU, isn't that kid likely to receive some sort of scholarship at UofI?

Absolutely not. University of Illinois is extremely stingy with scholarship money, while Marquette is extremely generous.

Personal experience: I am from Illinois and I attended MU for engineering 2009-14 (8 semesters + 1 summer + co-op work periods). I was accepted to Illinois, Purdue, Marquette, and Northwestern. Marquette was the least expensive. If I remember the numbers correctly, the total cost of attendance (tuition + fees + room & board) at Marquette was $7k less than Illinois, $2k less than Purdue, and $27k less than Northwestern, annually.

[forgetful]

This is true. However, this will be a problem for Marquette in the next 5-15 years.

The current model for federal student loans is basically a blank check written to anyone who wants to get a college education. It is a very noble model. I love that our government believes in access to college education for all people. However, it is not a financially sustainable system. Student loan debt in the united states is in to the trillions of dollars. Students are defaulting on their loans at the highest rate ever. As the government gets futher and further into debt, eventually the questions of student loan debt will have to be solved.

I believe (as do experts in the field) that eventually the federal government will reform the student loan application process. No longer will everyone be guaranteed the loan money required to get an expensive private school education. The government will take into account the likelihood of applicant's ability to pay back their loans.  You want tens of thousands of dollars to be a women's studies major at Alverno? Sorry, no loan for you. Go to UW-Parkside. You want tens of thousands to be an english major at Marquette? Sorry, you don't qualify. Go to UW-Milwaukee or UW-Whitewater.

I agree with Chicos and others when they say that having a top tier education will convince the best and the brightest to fork over the money. But that is only for those who can afford it. Students from lower socio-economic statuses will literally be unable to come up with enough money to go to school at Marquette. The original mission of our university is urban education. How are we fulfilling that mission if only the richest of society can afford our education?

So how do we offer a top 80 education while fulfilling our mission of educating those who cannot afford an education on their own? I have ideas, but none of them are perfect. We could model ourselves after the state schools and cut liberal arts degrees. They are lower money makers and students in those majors have a lower ROI. We could model ourselves after the Ivies and offer a graduated tuition rate based on parent's income levels. We could model ourselves after some community colleges that partner with businesses to offer scholarships to lower socio-economic students in exchange for working at the businesses.

All I know is, changes is coming. I hope Marquette is ready to be proactive rather than reactive. I think over the next 50 years we will see hundreds of universities and colleges going out of business, most of them small privates. As a more prestigious private school, this could be an opportunity for us. We could absorb a lot of those displaced students who would have gone to other small privates. But only if we are prepared.

There is another possible wrench in this model. As For-Profit Universities continue to pop up, Public schools may be required to increase their tuition.  Technically, as a not-for-profit, you are not allowed to compete with industry (for-profit) by charging less than market rate for services, if you are supported by government funds.  The state schools are definitely supported by government funds and you could technically see for-profit institutions demand tuition increases at Public schools.

Of course one would see a lot of public backlash (and new laws probably), but it is possible.

[StillAWarrior]

You probably already know this, but once you get all your offers, you can go back negotiate with the schools for more grants.  Leverage one offer against another.  We ended up paying a great deal less than the original acceptance letter offer my son got at his first choice by pointing out better offers he got from some other comparable schools.  Do your homework.  Doesn't always work, but it never hurts to ask.

Thank you.  I had heard that.  That's one of the reasons I don't think it makes any sense to use one of the "binding" early application processes.  Hopefully there will be something about his resume that will result in a couple schools wanting him enough to be willing to negotiate. 

[jsglow]

I graduated in 2004 and was fortunate to not have students loans (partial academic scholly and parents covered the rest). I earned an MBA from Northwestern a few years ago and took out 90k in loans. The company I work for paid for some and loans got returned to me in the form of a personal check. Cashed them and invested them. Loans were just over 5% annually and have managed to net 14% per year on average on loaned money. I'm paying off student loans with capital gains off of...student loans. Not bad!

MBA's are out of control these days.  I earned mine roughly 30 years ago across town from you. Paid my own way but I think I had my loans all paid off in about 5 years.  I hear what it costs to go to a top tier program these days.  No wonder they call me each and every Sunday (seemingly) for a donation.  Thankfully chick intercepted last night's.  I was still in a bad mood after the Packer upchuck.

[swoopem]

At the risk of incurring the ban hammer and well-deserved public ridicule and shame, I have to admit that Marquette isn't on his list at this point.  I consider it a personal failure.

It's an environment thing for him.  When I was picking a school, one of the things that really appealed to me (a small town kid from the mountains) was an urban environment.  That has no appeal at all to him.  He likes the more rural campuses and college towns.  His top three are probably Elon, Kenyon and Miami.  Elon and Kenyon are probably more similar in terms of size and feel.  Miami is considerably larger than the two other schools, but Oxford is definitely a college town and has that same feel -- only bigger.  He's still got Georgetown, Catholic U and Loyola Chicago on his list, but I don't know why -- they aren't at all what he seems to like.  I consider ND kind of in between.  Georgetown and ND have some appeal to him and he says they'll be hard to turn down if they make him an incredible offer.  I don't see that happening.

I think ultimately, it will come down to Elon or Miami.  Fortunately, he likes both schools.  If Elon makes an offer that makes it competitive with Miami, I think he'll go there.  I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that.  I've heard glowing reviews from people I've talked to that have any experience with it, but I honestly don't know much about it.  We haven't even visited.  If Elon doesn't come through with the cash, it'll probably be Miami.

At least if he goes to Miami or Elon he can still root for Marquette. A lot of my buddies went to Miami and I don't even think they know the name of the coach there. It's a great school and a ton of fun, but not exactly a sports school.

[Atticus]

MBA's are out of control these days.  I earned mine roughly 30 years ago across town from you. Paid my own way but I think I had my loans all paid off in about 5 years.  I hear what it costs to go to a top tier program these days.  No wonder they call me each and every Sunday (seemingly) for a donation.  Thankfully chick intercepted last night's.  I was still in a bad mood after the Packer upchuck.

Well, it's all relative. An MU degree did not make me competitive in the Chicago market. An MBA from NU did. I can easily credit NU with about a 40k bump in salary and way more job security than ever before. Well worth the 90k...which sounds nuts because it's just a piece of paper.

[Galway Eagle]

Absolutely not. University of Illinois is extremely stingy with scholarship money, while Marquette is extremely generous.

Personal experience: I am from Illinois and I attended MU for engineering 2009-14 (8 semesters + 1 summer + co-op work periods). I was accepted to Illinois, Purdue, Marquette, and Northwestern. Marquette was the least expensive. If I remember the numbers correctly, the total cost of attendance (tuition + fees + room & board) at Marquette was $7k less than Illinois, $2k less than Purdue, and $27k less than Northwestern, annually.

Same five years! (Fist bump)

[warriorchick]

Absolutely not. University of Illinois is extremely stingy with scholarship money, while Marquette is extremely generous.

Personal experience: I am from Illinois and I attended MU for engineering 2009-14 (8 semesters + 1 summer + co-op work periods). I was accepted to Illinois, Purdue, Marquette, and Northwestern. Marquette was the least expensive. If I remember the numbers correctly, the total cost of attendance (tuition + fees + room & board) at Marquette was $7k less than Illinois, $2k less than Purdue, and $27k less than Northwestern, annually.

I wish more parents would simply run the numbers.  At my kids' school, so many parents assumed that they couldn't afford a private university.  Many of them would have been a great fit at Marquette.  And the guidance counselors weren't much help.  If I were in Marquette admissions I would get together with some of my competitors to put together a PR campaign regarding affordability and go to the Illinois high schools with it.

[LloydMooresLegs]

I wish more parents would simply run the numbers.  At my kids' school, so many parents assumed that they couldn't afford a private university.  Many of them would have been a great fit at Marquette.  And the guidance counselors weren't much help.  If I were in Marquette admissions I would get together with some of my competitors to put together a PR campaign regarding affordability and go to the Illinois high schools with it.

The following all still holds but I apologize for not having read the entire thread before posting, as some of it repeats points already made.

I think the problem has to do with the advertised sticker price vs. the real price (at least for applicants hitting some baseline gpa/test score numbers).  There is a $12,000 to $24,000 difference in those two numbers for many of the midwest Catholic schools (this is the pool I know best based on my daughter's experience in applying this year).  In other words, MU, SLU, Creighton, Dayton etc. may have a sticker rice of $45,000 to $50,000 all in, but the true price with decent grades and good (not great) test scores will be $20,000 to $30,000.  

AND THAT IS BEFORE YOU CONSIDER NEED.  Throw in need based grants, and the bottom line number can quickly get under $15,000/yr.

Is it possible that the schools want the "prestige" of charging higher tuition?  Is it worth it to the schools to have this discrepancy in order to hit the small percentage of students who pay full sticker?  Maybe it is.  Not sure how the economics of it play out.  But it sure is a befuddling market.

[ChuckyChip]

Just went through this process/analysis with my oldest.

She was not really interested in MU, but with both parents as alums, she did visit and apply.  She's a good student (3.8 GPA and 32 ACT) and was accepted with a $10,000 scholarship (we would not qualify for any other need-based aid).

But, looking objectively at the costs, it's hard not to lean towards a state school (she picked Madison):

Marquette - Room, Board, Tuition = $46,480 - $10,000 = $36,480
Madison    - Room, Board, Tuition = $19,010

Even if MU is a better school, is it almost twice as good as Madison?  The recent US News rankings has UW #47 and MU #76.

[Coleman]

Just went through this process/analysis with my oldest.

She was not really interested in MU, but with both parents as alums, she did visit and apply.  She's a good student (3.8 GPA and 32 ACT) and was accepted with a $10,000 scholarship (we would not qualify for any other need-based aid).

But, looking objectively at the costs, it's hard not to lean towards a state school (she picked Madison):

Marquette - Room, Board, Tuition = $46,480 - $10,000 = $36,480
Madison    - Room, Board, Tuition = $19,010

Even if MU is a better school, is it almost twice as good as Madison?  The recent US News rankings has UW #47 and MU #76.

This sums it up perfectly. The math has gotten much worse for MU in the past 10 years.

When I decided to go to Marquette (I was also accepted to UW) the math was more like this:

Marquette - Room, board, tuition, $28,000 (approximately) - $8,000 Ignatius scholly = $20,000
Madison - Room, board, tuition, $14,000 (approximately)

The difference has almost tripled from 6k a year to 17k a year. Multiply that over 4 years and the difference changes from 24k to 68k.

This is not sustainable.

I accept that private school tuition will always be more than state school tuition. But MU must find a way to keep tuition increases in line with state schools, after taking scholarships into account, to stay competitive.

[tower912]

AND THAT IS BEFORE YOU CONSIDER NEED.  

I filled out those forms.   It said that I could afford 1/5 of my total household income before taxes.    So we weren't going to be getting any need-based aid from Xavier, or any other private school.   At all of the tours we did, we were told by the financial aid people to sit down before you opened the envelope telling you what you could theoretically afford.  

[StillAWarrior]

I filled out those forms.   It said that I could afford 1/5 of my total household income before taxes.    So we weren't going to be getting any need-based aid from Xavier, or any other private school.   At all of the tours we did, we were told by the financial aid people to sit down before you opened the envelope telling you what you could theoretically afford.  

I'm sure we'll fill out those forms. Just like we did when my son started HS and they told us we didn't qualify.  Just like we did when my daughter joined him there (thinking it might make a difference since we were going to be paying for two) and they told us we didn't qualify.  I'm not expecting much, if anything when we repeat the process for college.

[GooooMarquette]

Most likely, no. The majority of scholarships that MU gives (and most private schools) are in realty a tuition discount. The model is extremely similar to buying a car. There's the sticker price, then after a series of discounts, the actual price.

Public schools do not use this model, or if they do, it is not to the same degree as private institutions. The grades and test scores that the average admitted student brings to the table to receive a scholarship at MU, would almost in all cases, received no scholarship support at UofI, or another comparable public school.

I don't know anything about UofI, but your statement about other public schools is overly broad, as there are some public schools that do give significant scholarships as a "discount" based on merit.

My daughter was accepted to MU with the $12k/yr Ignatius scholarship...and also to Mizzou with something called the Mark Twain Scholarship ($7k/year).  Mizzou's out of state tuition is about $11,000/yr less than MU's, and their average room & board is about $1,500 less.  Add 'em up and my daughter is paying about $7,500 less per year at Mizzou ($30,000 savings total).  

I know Marquette may be "better" than Mizzou in many programs, but that's irrelevant to my daughter, as she's majoring in Journalism.  Mizzou's program is usually ranked anywhere from #1 to about #5 depending on who you ask, so she's getting pretty good bang for her buck.

FWIW she had an even better merit-based offer from ASU's J-school (would've saved about $50,000 vs Marquette over 4 years), but she wasn't as impressed by the program.

Just a couple more data points....

[mileskishnish72]

Wow, when I was in MKE my GF (now wife) worked at Continental Bank, which I think was at Wisconsin and 8th. It seemed like a long way from MU. Now I guess, not so much.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

You probably already know this, but once you get all your offers, you can go back negotiate with the schools for more grants.  Leverage one offer against another.  We ended up paying a great deal less than the original acceptance letter offer my son got at his first choice by pointing out better offers he got from some other comparable schools.  Do your homework.  Doesn't always work, but it never hurts to ask.

My cousin's daughter is a frosh in a private college in the school of her choice and did exactly this.  A school that was lower on her list gave her an amazing offer so they sent copies of the offer to her first choice and they matched.

I'm trying to plant the seed of attending college in Canada where every school is public and inexpensive by USA terns........My wife is planting the seed of college in Poland with the dual citizenship the cost would be almost free.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is true. However, this will be a problem for Marquette in the next 5-15 years.

The current model for federal student loans is basically a blank check written to anyone who wants to get a college education. It is a very noble model. I love that our government believes in access to college education for all people. However, it is not a financially sustainable system. Student loan debt in the united states is in to the trillions of dollars. Students are defaulting on their loans at the highest rate ever. As the government gets futher and further into debt, eventually the questions of student loan debt will have to be solved.

I believe (as do experts in the field) that eventually the federal government will reform the student loan application process. No longer will everyone be guaranteed the loan money required to get an expensive private school education. The government will take into account the likelihood of applicant's ability to pay back their loans.  You want tens of thousands of dollars to be a women's studies major at Alverno? Sorry, no loan for you. Go to UW-Parkside. You want tens of thousands to be an english major at Marquette? Sorry, you don't qualify. Go to UW-Milwaukee or UW-Whitewater.

I agree with Chicos and others when they say that having a top tier education will convince the best and the brightest to fork over the money. But that is only for those who can afford it. Students from lower socio-economic statuses will literally be unable to come up with enough money to go to school at Marquette. The original mission of our university is urban education. How are we fulfilling that mission if only the richest of society can afford our education?

So how do we offer a top 80 education while fulfilling our mission of educating those who cannot afford an education on their own? I have ideas, but none of them are perfect. We could model ourselves after the state schools and cut liberal arts degrees. They are lower money makers and students in those majors have a lower ROI. We could model ourselves after the Ivies and offer a graduated tuition rate based on parent's income levels. We could model ourselves after some community colleges that partner with businesses to offer scholarships to lower socio-economic students in exchange for working at the businesses.

All I know is, changes is coming. I hope Marquette is ready to be proactive rather than reactive. I think over the next 50 years we will see hundreds of universities and colleges going out of business, most of them small privates. As a more prestigious private school, this could be an opportunity for us. We could absorb a lot of those displaced students who would have gone to other small privates. But only if we are prepared.

Change the mission, or change the segmentation of how many folks you wish to educate that fit that bill. 

[warriorchick]

.My wife is planting the seed of college in Poland with the dual citizenship the cost would be almost free.

Speaking as a person who has hired many college grads, having a degree from Poland is going to be a hindrance when it comes to getting a job.  Very few people are going to know whether a degree from any particular university in Poland is worth anything.  Especially with recent grads, I would never hire someone with a degree from a school I had never heard of. 

I have many Polish-born friends (I worked for many years in the janitorial industry), and I don't know a single one who sent or are planning to send their dual-citizen kids back to Poland for university.

Just my two cents.

[LloydMooresLegs]

I filled out those forms.   It said that I could afford 1/5 of my total household income before taxes.    So we weren't going to be getting any need-based aid from Xavier, or any other private school.   At all of the tours we did, we were told by the financial aid people to sit down before you opened the envelope telling you what you could theoretically afford. 

The one place I can guarantee that it is worth it to fill out the forms is Dayton.  Even if you are a billionaire, if you fill out the forms, books and fees are covered.  If you don't, you pay for them. 

[jsglow]

Well, it's all relative. An MU degree did not make me competitive in the Chicago market. An MBA from NU did. I can easily credit NU with about a 40k bump in salary and way more job security than ever before. Well worth the 90k...which sounds nuts because it's just a piece of paper.

Concur.  My 30 year banking career resulted.  I'd only recommend a Top 20 program.  Top 5 is even better.  You and I were both blessed.  And it's pretty freakin' cool when one's mentor is awarded the Nobel for Economics.

[GGGG]

If you are green, you are growing. Lovell has set a growth agenda from the get go, but also is locking onto these innovation partnerships around town in order to share costs. According to MU's Financial Statements, MU brought in contributions receivables of $81,498M in 2010 and $83,519M in Fr. Wild's last year. Enter Pilarz and the contributions receivables went down to $78,895M in 2012 and $62,897M in 2013 (and the stock market rocketed up).

How does one make up for the drop-off in contributions when one fails in leadership? Raise tuition, with gross tuition rising from $306,018M in Wild's last year to $337,783M in Pilarz's Year 2. Fact is, tuition control goes with growth by keeping tuition in line by insisting that a sizeable part of endowment and incubation revenue go toward financial aid.  

"Net Contributions Receivable" is an asset.  It is a snapshot of the outstanding pledged contributions at the end of the 2013 and 2012 years.  The decrease could be due to lack of new pledges.  Or it could be due to increased pledge payments of some sort.  It isn't a real good way to determine how successful Marquette's fundraising is in a given fiscal year.

A much better way is to look at the Statement of Activities, which show that contributions income was essentially flat between 2012 and 2013 (which includes both new cash contributions and new pledges, but not payments on existing pledges).  Therefore this leads me to believe that the decrease in Net Contributions Receivable is due to an increase in payments on existing pledges - likely due to an increase in the stock market.

[Dr. Blackheart]

"Net Contributions Receivable" is an asset.  It is a snapshot of the outstanding pledged contributions at the end of the 2013 and 2012 years.  The decrease could be due to lack of new pledges.  Or it could be due to increased pledge payments of some sort.  It isn't a real good way to determine how successful Marquette's fundraising is in a given fiscal year.

A much better way is to look at the Statement of Activities, which show that contributions income was essentially flat between 2012 and 2013 (which includes both new cash contributions and new pledges, but not payments on existing pledges).  Therefore this leads me to believe that the decrease in Net Contributions Receivable is due to an increase in payments on existing pledges - likely due to an increase in the stock market.

Thanks for adding to this and JayBee's comments.  However, this is the only publicly available data that is consistent over the years...as to why, it is in the footnotes:

Due to an amendment of a donor agreement during fiscal year 2013, a contribution receivable of $7,021 was reclassified to a grant through temporarily restricted nonoperating activity. Contributions with donor-imposed conditions are not recognized unless it is reasonably expected that the conditions can be met.

Which single donor?  Why the change in conditions to a pledge versus receivable? They weren't the only ones...interesting to see big donations came in to Fr. Wild in January for $10 million and Lovell all summer. The 1% at MU is a very small sample.