Campus Expansion

[ChicosBailBonds]

Some of the threads in the Superbar were talking about the rankings. I want MU to get into the top 50, top 25, whatever. But I don't want them to be gaming the system like Northeastern did. Getting improved rankings through "squirmy" methods isn't my preferred approach

Agree, though I thought I also read that pushing to achieve that status would change our mission and leave out kids we normally let in.  I have a few on ignore over there so it could have been what I read from someone quoting them.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The average student debt upon graduation in 1980 was $3,100.  Today it's over $28,000.  I understand why students want "stuff" for cheaper.

Yup, I paid my grad school loans off well into my 30's.  My new bride helped tremendously.  It's a choice we make.  I had numbers in that range and that was 20 years ago.

I was referencing that it extends beyond this to everyday goods and services.   Volumes and volumes of data.  We have cheapened the value of too many products by giving them away for free through promotions.  We have trained people to think stuff is free, or if not....don't sweat it one bit to steal it, "borrow it", or whatever descriptor you wish to use.  

[CTWarrior]

I chose between Marquette and UW in 1978.  My Dad thought I was crazy because he had limited $$ to contribute. ( I am the oldest of 6).   I chose Marquette and loved every minute of my overall experience.  

I paid most of my own way and I borrowed the max.  Paid that bill into my mid 30s. Worth every dime I invested.  Overall, the Jesuit experience is incredible.  There is just no way I could pull that off now.  

I encourage every smart kid I know to apply to Marquette and tell them not to look at the retail price, wait until you see what they offer.  
1) With a delta of about $30K (retail) per year, many don't even apply.
2) MU drags their feet with financial aid offers, so that these kids need to commit before MU lets them know where they stand.  I know that in many cases MU is waiting for more highly ranked admits to commit, but still.

Attended 1979-1983.  I paid my total bill myself (5th of 7 kids of a stay at home mom and an electrician father.  Six of us went to college-4 to Jesuit schools, 2 to state schools, all but our youngest sister paid 100% for ourselves and the 7th became a cop).  A $2,500 annual student loan, summer job in a factory with weekends caddying covered everything.  After graduation had 10 years of $100/month student loan payments, very easy to pay back.  I don't see how kids today would be able to manage full cost on their own.  

[LAZER]

To the "perception is reality" crew gaming the system is what it's all about.

I've got to think there's a nice way to raise your academic stature without gaming the system.

[Coleman]

Have to agree with Topper here.

The meteoric rise of college expenses is unsustainable. Stories of paying your way through in the 70s and 80s hold almost no relevance to the costs today.

Of course a college degree is still worth it. But the number of people who will willingly chose a private institution over a state school is growing smaller by the day. I entered college only 10 years ago, and while MU was expensive then, costs of private college have gone hyperbolic in the last 10 years



If this continues, many smart people will go to an in-state school. It is inevitable.

On a somewhat tangential subject, this is having a major effect on the wider economy. Millennials are not living with mom and dad because they are lazy or coddled, its because they are graduating with tens of thousands of dollars in debt. They are putting off purchases of homes, cars, and other things most adults just took for granted 30 years ago. If you think this isn't going to have major impacts across the economy, think again.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Have to agree with Topper here.

The meteoric rise of college expenses is unsustainable. Stories of paying your way through in the 70s and 80s hold almost no relevance to the costs today.

Of course a college degree is still worth it. But the number of people who will willingly chose a private institution over a state school is growing smaller by the day. I entered college only 10 years ago, and while MU was expensive then, costs of private college have gone hyperbolic in the last 10 years



If this continues, many smart people will go to an in-state school. It is inevitable.

On a somewhat tangential subject, this is having a major effect on the wider economy. Millennial are living with mom and dad because they are lazy or coddled, its because they are graduating with tens of thousands of dollars in debt. They are putting off purchases of homes, cars, and other things most adults just took for granted 30 years ago. If you think this isn't going to have major impacts across the economy, think again.

This exactly.

I understand the MU has to "keep up with the Jones's", but they also need to keep an eye on the long term health and sustainability of where they are headed.

Capital improvements are great, but if there aren't any students enrolling to use them, it's a waste.

Growth needs to be measured against long term risk and goals. There is a breaking point where people will just turn down MU based upon price. You can have all the shiny new buildings you want, if MU is too expensive, kids will go elsewhere.

[Skatastrophy]

but if there aren't any students enrolling to use them

This hasn't been a problem yet, for the university. Applications are at an all-time high.

It seems like there's a lot of noise being created around a "problem" that may not exist quite yet for Marquette.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This hasn't been a problem yet, for the university. Applications are at an all-time high.

It seems like there's a lot of noise being created around a "problem" that may not exist quite yet for Marquette.

Fair.

I'm thinking long term.

You have to think 10-20 years ahead when you are dealing with millions in capital improvements.

They can't just keep jacking up tuition until applications eventually go down. At that point, it's too late for meaningful course correction, especially when we add in the layer of the Jesuit mission.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

If this continues, many smart people will go to an in-state school. It is inevitable.

I think this is really an unwritten story... it's inevitable that the "deal" of going to "the" top state school in each state is going to skyrocket versus private schools as the cost for each goes up, even if the rate of increase for public schools is higher than private schools.

Maybe places like UW will adjust their tuition even higher to account for the increase in demand, or have 65,000 undergrads instead of 40,000.

BTW, every time I visit Madison I'm amazed at how much bigger the campus seems every year. What is it, half the size of Rhode Island?

[jsglow]

Attended 1979-1983.  I paid my total bill myself (5th of 7 kids of a stay at home mom and an electrician father.  Six of us went to college-4 to Jesuit schools, 2 to state schools, all but our youngest sister paid 100% for ourselves and the 7th became a cop).  A $2,500 annual student loan, summer job in a factory with weekends caddying covered everything.  After graduation had 10 years of $100/month student loan payments, very easy to pay back.  I don't see how kids today would be able to manage full cost on their own.  

Concur CT.  Simply not possible today.  Back in the day many followed your roadmap.

[jsglow]

I think this is really an unwritten story... it's inevitable that the "deal" of going to "the" top state school in each state is going to skyrocket versus private schools as the cost for each goes up, even if the rate of increase for public schools is higher than private schools.

Maybe places like UW will adjust their tuition even higher to account for the increase in demand, or have 65,000 undergrads instead of 40,000.

BTW, every time I visit Madison I'm amazed at how much bigger the campus seems every year. What is it, half the size of Rhode Island?

What's lost in this a bit is that while private universities have jacked tuition, public universities have jacked enrollment without adding to their class offerings.  The net result is that classes fill and graduation in 4 years is becoming increasingly rare necessitating a longer and more expensive stay on campus.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

What's lost in this a bit is that while private universities have jacked tuition, public universities have jacked enrollment without adding to their class offerings.  The net result is that classes fill and graduation in 4 years is becoming increasingly rare necessitating a longer and more expensive stay on campus.

I don't have any reason to doubt you, but do you have any numbers that suggest this?

I definitely think we are accepting too many kids to public schools when the graduates rates are absolutely horrid at a number of them.

[jsglow]

I don't have any reason to doubt you, but do you have any numbers that suggest this?

I definitely think we are accepting too many kids to public schools when the graduates rates are absolutely horrid at a number of them.

I don't have hard numbers available although I have heard this phenomenon discussed by numerous university administrators at several institutions.  I will suggest that very limited state dollars have meant that public university budgets have been severely constrained.  No way Illinois is hiring more professors or adding classrooms given the mess in Springfield.  I think that fits the pattern around the country.

I will also add that public universities are known for deferred admit programs.  Nursing is a perfect example.  My daughter simply was not prepared to pay 2 years tuition to Madison for the 'chance' to get into their Nursing school where a 3.7 GPA might not get it done.

[mu_hilltopper]

Chicos .. you do have an interesting point about striving to be in the top 50, where families will find the ROI to be acceptable.

The only issue I have with that is .. the quality of the degree is often not linked to the quality of the job you can land.  As an example, and not to denigrate the profession, but MU's college of education could be #1 in the universe, and only a handful of the teachers that get cranked out each year will likely see a healthy ROI after they've plopped down $200k for an education. 

And, naturally, meanwhile MU is trying to get to the top 50?  Those in the top 50 are trying to get in the top 25. 

And indeed, to Jay Bee's point, my basis is not about MU, but all private schools with tuition, where the tuition is $30, 40, 50k/year.   In a very short decade, we're talking $70, 80, 90k.  True, the publics are floating upwards as well, due to decreases in public funding .. but they have a long way to go to catch up the private costs, and there is a heavy handbrake on publics' tuitions, as legislatures are going out of their way to squeeze. 

Privates don't have that, beyond the walking feet of families who go elsewhere. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Chicos .. you do have an interesting point about striving to be in the top 50, where families will find the ROI to be acceptable.

The only issue I have with that is .. the quality of the degree is often not linked to the quality of the job you can land.  As an example, and not to denigrate the profession, but MU's college of education could be #1 in the universe, and only a handful of the teachers that get cranked out each year will likely see a healthy ROI after they've plopped down $200k for an education. 

And, naturally, meanwhile MU is trying to get to the top 50?  Those in the top 50 are trying to get in the top 25. 

And indeed, to Jay Bee's point, my basis is not about MU, but all private schools with tuition, where the tuition is $30, 40, 50k/year.   In a very short decade, we're talking $70, 80, 90k.  True, the publics are floating upwards as well, due to decreases in public funding .. but they have a long way to go to catch up the private costs, and there is a heavy handbrake on publics' tuitions, as legislatures are going out of their way to squeeze. 

Privates don't have that, beyond the walking feet of families who go elsewhere. 

If it gets to that point, it's too late, and MU will be in serious trouble.

MU has to have some vision and foresight to be able to grow, but keep it economically attainable.

I'm not trying to be a doomsdayer, but I have serious concerns about this topic. MU HAS to be careful here.

[warriorchick]

I don't have any reason to doubt you, but do you have any numbers that suggest this?

I definitely think we are accepting too many kids to public schools when the graduates rates are absolutely horrid at a number of them.

I recently attended a meeting where high-ranking administrators said they actually use the "we will get you out in 4 years" as a marketing tool for Marquette.  There is a huge perception problem that a private institution is significantly more expensive than a high-quality public one.  However, when one factors in the greater availability of merit-based aid and the ability to get all of your major and minor classes in 4 years, the cost difference shrinks significantly.

Private schools also aren't hamstrung by the amount of support they are given by the state.  University of Illinois has all but abandoned its primary mission of educating residents of their own state.  The Chicago Tribune reported this year that 10% of its freshman class this fall is from China.  U of I fully admits they make a deliberate effort to woo foreign students because they pay full out-of-state tuition and don't qualify for financial aid.

[Groin_pull]

I recently attended a meeting where high-ranking administrators said they actually use the "we will get you out in 4 years" as a marketing tool for Marquette.  There is a huge perception problem that a private institution is significantly more expensive than a high-quality public one.  However, when one factors in the greater availability of merit-based aid and the ability to get all of your major and minor classes in 4 years, the cost difference shrinks significantly.

Private schools also aren't hamstrung by the amount of support they are given by the state.  University of Illinois has all but abandoned its primary mission of educating residents of their own state.  The Chicago Tribune reported this year that 10% of its freshman class this fall is from China.  U of I fully admits they make a deliberate effort to woo foreign students because they pay full out-of-state tuition and don't qualify for financial aid.

Excellent point. Same thing happening at Cal-Berkeley.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

I don't have any reason to doubt you, but do you have any numbers that suggest this?

I definitely think we are accepting too many kids to public schools when the graduates rates are absolutely horrid at a number of them.

    Just anecdotal evidence here- When my daughter looked at San Diego State, one of her fallbacks, the average student graduated in 5 years. My son knew friends who simply were not able to enroll in final class to graduate 4th year. Classes like that were offered only one semester a year and , if you did not get in or couldn't crash the class, you had to wait a whole year for another attempt.

[warriorchick]

   Just anecdotal evidence here- When my daughter looked at San Diego State, one of her fallbacks, the average student graduated in 5 years. My son knew friends who simply were not able to enroll in final class to graduate 4th year. Classes like that were offered only one semester a year and , if you did not get in or couldn't crash the class, you had to wait a whole year for another attempt.

The percentage of students at a given university who graduate in 4 years is almost impossible to find out unless the school releases the information on its own.  Colleges and Universities are only required to report the 6-year graduation rate.  I would assume that benchmark was established to account for students who changed their major, had to drop out for a semester or two for financial reasons, etc., but it is also a great way to hide the kids that were simply unable to enroll in the classes they needed in order to graduate on time.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I recently attended a meeting where high-ranking administrators said they actually use the "we will get you out in 4 years" as a marketing tool for Marquette.  There is a huge perception problem that a private institution is significantly more expensive than a high-quality public one.  However, when one factors in the greater availability of merit-based aid and the ability to get all of your major and minor classes in 4 years, the cost difference shrinks significantly.

Private schools also aren't hamstrung by the amount of support they are given by the state.  University of Illinois has all but abandoned its primary mission of educating residents of their own state.  The Chicago Tribune reported this year that 10% of its freshman class this fall is from China.  U of I fully admits they make a deliberate effort to woo foreign students because they pay full out-of-state tuition and don't qualify for financial aid.

On the first point, I can see what they are trying to do, but I don't know that it's that much of a benefit when the cost per year is still 3x as much. You NEED to get out in 4 years at Marquette. I probably wanted to switch from the College of Arts & Crafts to Business by mid-point in my junior year, but that would have meant another 1-2 years and many thousands more dollars in debt.

On the second point, in my graduate program (at MU), professors have been told by COB admin that they *need* at least 20 students in the program at any given time, for tuition purposes. This usually means nearly 50% are Chinese students. Flooding the market with this degree doesn't help graduates, but, "fortunately," almost none of them can get jobs due to Visa issues, so the market isn't as saturated as it could be.

[warriorchick]

On the first point, I can see what they are trying to do, but I don't know that it's that much of a benefit when the cost per year is still 3x as much. You NEED to get out in 4 years at Marquette. I probably wanted to switch from the College of Arts & Crafts to Business by mid-point in my junior year, but that would have meant another 1-2 years and many thousands more dollars in debt.

On the second point, in my graduate program (at MU), professors have been told by COB admin that they *need* at least 20 students in the program at any given time, for tuition purposes. This usually means nearly 50% are Chinese students. Flooding the market with this degree doesn't help graduates, but, "fortunately," almost none of them can get jobs due to Visa issues, so the market isn't as saturated as it could be.

Do the math.

Marquette tuition and fees are about $36,000 per year.  If you get a $12,000 Ignatius scholarship (relatively common) and graduate in 4 years, that's a net cost for your degree of $98,000.

If you are a science, engineering, or business major at U of I, in-state tuition and fees are about $20,500.  Multiply that by 5 years and that is a net cost of $102,500.  Add the opportunity cost of not having a full-time professional job that fifth year and you are approaching $150,000.

Room and board costs are similar between the two institutions, FWIW.

As far as your second point, I was talking about freshman enrollment, not graduate school.  Kids are coming from China and are taking up undergrad business and engineering spots.  In the past decade, U of I undergrad enrollment has gone from 90% in-state residents to a little over 70%.

[The Love House]

I think we're seriously overlooking how MU's expansion plans have impacted all grads, past and present.  Fortunately, I've shed some light on the issue in the attached graph.

[Skatastrophy]

That's a pie chart, idiot.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

The math: University of Wisconsin is roughly $10,000 per year in tuition. I'll trust your Marquette numbers and say they're $36,000. So, I underestimated the ratio of a year at Marquette versus a year at Madison. It's 3.6, not 3.0.

4 years at Marquette - 144,000

5 years at Wisconsin - 50,000

Where, exactly, is the cost savings?

I'm not interested in your situation in Illinois, but it sounds like another example of a state with out of control finances. Good luck to you with that.

[Coleman]

Who are these mythical thin drunk MU chicks you speak of?