Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?

[Aughnanure]

I know it's crazy, but there are studies that show the opposite.  Maybe we should just accept that fact that you will find studies that support your position and I'll find those that support mine.  I included the CBO because they are supposed to be non-partisan.

In the meantime, if studies show no impact to jobs when they are raised, why not take the minimum wage up to $50 an hour...how about $300 an hour...since there is not impact.   

No, I won't. Because history proves otherwise. And stop with the strawman argument, of course bumping it up over 500% would have consequences.

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, I won't. Because history proves otherwise. And stop with the strawman argument, of course bumping it up over 500% would have consequences.

History doesn't prove otherwise any more than other studies show opposite results.  Is your "history" accounting for all inputs correctly?  The right industries studied?  Were hours cut, but not jobs, thus reducing overall pay, etc, etc.

So what's the right number?  Taking it up 70% ok?  110% ok, 114% catastrophic?

Why are you ignoring the CBO's report....you guys loved their report when they were talking about Obamacare...snicker snicker.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I believe in capitalism, however sometimes I do have to wonder how much is enough?

You have some people who are trying HARD, and can barely eat/survive. You have some other people mere miles or maybe even blocks away who have so much money they couldn't spend it all in 10 lifetimes.

I know it's not the first time in history it's happened, but it's just weird if you strip away all of our notions and look at the actual results of how we live.

If aliens came, how would we explain it? Would they "get it"?

It's not perfect, but there isn't a better system ever invented in human history. 

I get more concerned with the lack of basic economic understanding in this country.  When people are bellyaching about revenues earned, I just shake my head, but you see it every day.  Revenues are not profits, but I'll be damned if it doesn't seem like the majority of low information voters have a clue on the difference.  Secondly, even when profits are high in absolute dollars, that doesn't mean on a percentage basis they aren't around 10%.  It's always amazing to me to watch some people get honked off because some giant corporation made billions in profits in a given year, but with a profit margin around 10%, while some mid sized lefty friendly company merely made $750M but had profit margins of 70%...that's ok.  The double standards are pretty funny to watch, except that these people are typically so clueless that they don't even understand profit margins or absolute dollars anyway....so it becomes a witnessing of pure ignorance instead....which is also fun.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

If aliens came, how would we explain it? Would they "get it"?

"Aliens"....are you talking about all the illegals entering our country right now or extraterrestrials?

[Aughnanure]

Your ideologically-charged rantings are just as ludicrous as what you think I'm espousing.  I'm simply demonstrating the lunacy of your argument where in one breath you imply Walmart is critical to society and in the next you lambast their business model.  If you want to tell someone how to run their business, buy a majority stake in the company.  If you don't agree with the model or their policies, fine - that's your right.  Truth be told, neither do I (nor do I shop there). But people have been moving to this country for centuries so they didn't have to be told what to do on the whims of a nutjob (or nutjobs).  All I'm saying is don't be a nutjob.

You need to realize that your gripe isn't with capitalism, or Walmart, or subsidies, or republicans... your gripe is with human nature and consumer behavior.  If that's what you want to change, start at the bottom, not the top.  You can't melt an iceberg by throwing salt on the surface.

See this is where reading is fundamental. I always aid the workers were fundamental, not the specific company they worked for.

And yes, capitalism is part of problem. We do not live on islands where our actions do not affect others. It's nice to think we are kings of our domain, but it is a delusion.  Stop putting your head in the sand that Walmart's (and generally big box retailers) model is nothing less than the abuse of people and their families.

[jesmu84]

So much drama.
Suggesting that the average public union worker receives "insane" perks is, um, insane.
There are absolutely instances in which benefits promised are a travesty, but this usually involves only the people at the very top of the food chain (i.e. school superintendents, judges, former directors), and is in no way reflective of the average worker.
Here in Illinois, the median teacher pension is $55k a year.
Remember, these are people with no Social Security and no access to an employer backed 401k. This is all they get. Are you really suggesting that a person living on $55,000 a year in 2014 is somehow funding a lavish lifestyle on the public's dime? That that's an "insane" perk?
And it's not as if this is free money. They're contributing a solid chunk of their annual incomes toward these benefits (here in Illinois it's 9 percent a year).

The problem in most states - Illinois being the shining example - isn't that the benefits promised were excessive or unaffordable in most instances. They're not.
The problem is that for decades, while public workers have been making their required contributions to the system, the politicians haven't. They've consistently diverted funding earmarked for the pension system to pay for other pet projects, creating the massive funding shortfalls we have today. The problem is less about too much going out as it is too little going in.
And then they get yahoos on the Internet shouting about how it's all the teachers' and unions' fault. Those greedy SOBs should spend retirement dining on cat food and be happy about it.

It's a little bit of both. Politicians/government officials taking from the pension coffers for other things without replacing them. As well, you had teachers who only put in say 5 years worth, then taking 15-20 years of a pension - clearly taking more than they put in, putting the entire pension account behind the 8-ball from the beginning. And that can be my segue into why it's bullcrap that I won't get social security when I retire, because others didn't have to put as much in as I do, but they sure don't mind taking out all that they are "owed".

[Benny B]

See this is where reading is fundamental. I always said the workers were fundamental, not the specific company they worked for.

And yes, capitalism is part of problem. We do not live on islands where our actions do not affect others. It's nice to think we are kings of our domain, but it is a delusion.  Stop putting your head in the sand that Walmart's (and generally big box retailers) model is nothing less than the abuse of people and their families.

FIFY.  Or maybe I screwed it up.  I didn't take Reading Fundamentals 101 in college.  I concentrated on courses like economics, organizational behavior, marketing, finance, statistics... you know, the stuff that actually allows you to see the flaws of ideology through a window pane of reality.

If you genuinely want to stop the abuse of people and their families, let me ask you a serious question: Have you watched any NFL games over the past two weeks?  If so, then stop whining like a Calipari or Ryan - henceforward referred to as "Johnboing" (pronounced JOHN-bo-ing) - about big box retailers and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT*.

*Johnboing on an internet message board does not qualify as "doing something about it."

[Benny B]

Are you really suggesting that a person living on $55,000 a year in 2014 is somehow funding a lavish lifestyle on the public's dime?

If they're shopping at Walmart (or any big box retailer), evidently they are.

[Coleman]

It's not perfect, but there isn't a better system ever invented in human history.  

I'd disagree. Pure capitalism is better than pure socialism, but a mix of the two usually works out the best.

Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It's not perfect, but there isn't a better system ever invented in human history. 

I get more concerned with the lack of basic economic understanding in this country.  When people are bellyaching about revenues earned, I just shake my head, but you see it every day.  Revenues are not profits, but I'll be damned if it doesn't seem like the majority of low information voters have a clue on the difference.  Secondly, even when profits are high in absolute dollars, that doesn't mean on a percentage basis they aren't around 10%.  It's always amazing to me to watch some people get honked off because some giant corporation made billions in profits in a given year, but with a profit margin around 10%, while some mid sized lefty friendly company merely made $750M but had profit margins of 70%...that's ok.  The double standards are pretty funny to watch, except that these people are typically so clueless that they don't even understand profit margins or absolute dollars anyway....so it becomes a witnessing of pure ignorance instead....which is also fun.

Right, but this is exactly my point.

Step outside of the ideologies for a minute.

We have people struggling to survive and feed themselves, and we have others who literally have more than they know what to do with. These people live only blocks apart.

Again, I'm not some sort of commy, but if we step outside of ourselves for a minute, its an interesting examination of where we are at on planet earth.

I would have a hard time explaining it to a Martian, or to Jesus quite frankly (BTW, Jesus might be a Martian, think about that for a minute).

[Pakuni]

If they're shopping at Walmart (or any big box retailer), evidently they are.

When I think of Walmart products, the first word that comes to mind is "lavish."

[jesmu84]

Right, but this is exactly my point.

Step outside of the ideologies for a minute.

We have people struggling to survive and feed themselves, and we have others who literally have more than they know what to do with. These people live only blocks apart.

Again, I'm not some sort of commy, but if we step outside of ourselves for a minute, its an interesting examination of where we are at on planet earth.

I would have a hard time explaining it to a Martian, or to Jesus quite frankly (BTW, Jesus might be a Martian, think about that for a minute).

This makes me sad.

[rocky_warrior]

An interesting topic, and generally civil discourse,  but you know thedrill