Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?

[ChicosBailBonds]

But that's what unions are for: to increase the earnings and benefits for their members.

Much like industry groups work: increase the profits and access to resources for their corporate members.

Everyone is in on the pie.

Either the $ is going to a person who's actually going to spend it in your community or it's going to someone who is more likely going to shield it overseas.

Unfortunately, some unions are driving their membership into extinction.  I say that as a husband to a wife who is a member of a labor union and their ranks have been decimated over the years as jobs have gone bye bye.  She was in the grocer's union.  Now, with self checkouts, etc, they simply don't need the workers (she's been a stay at home mom for many years, so doesn't impact us directly anymore....but my point being that labor costs soared, profit margins for grocery business are already miniscule, so they have to adapt to stay in business).

[Tugg Speedman]

I think your right.

But, here's what I don't know:

Are there enough decent jobs for HS graduates right now? It's easy to say they shouldn't be working at Wal-Mart, but are there enough attainable jobs out there that pay a livable wage? I know there are technical jobs (electrician, plumber, HVAC etc.), but those require additional training.

I'm talking about a the day you walk out of HS, are there jobs where you can start at 20K+ and work your way up from there?

In the 1950's, I think were industrial-type jobs way you'd start on the bottom, but there was opportunity for upward movement for those that stuck with it. A guy could carve out a decent living eventually. Right? Or am I dreaming that?

The solution might be more based upon our education and training system. We're training/educating kids like it's 1950. Maybe it's time we train them like it's 2050.

No, you're "F'ed" if you don't get at least a undergraduate degree.  If you stop at HS diploma their are limited opportunities that pay lousy.  Let me be blunt, unless you get more education that a HS degree, the modern economy really has no use for you.

The exception is a HS degree only works if you can also get drafted by the NBA.

[Coleman]

No, you're "F'ed" if you don't get at least a undergraduate degree.  If you stop at HS diploma their are limited opportunities that pay lousy.  Let me be blunt, unless you get more education that a HS degree, the modern economy really has no use for you.

The exception is a HS degree only works if you can also get drafted by the NBA.

I agree that you need more than a HS diploma, I will disagree when you say you need at least an undergraduate degree.

I have friends in the trades, plumbers, electricians, who are making money hand over fist. They only got technical training from a vocational school after high school.

[Tugg Speedman]

But that's what unions are for: to increase the earnings and benefits for their members.

Much like industry groups work: increase the profits and access to resources for their corporate members.

Everyone is in on the pie.

Either the $ is going to a person who's actually going to spend it in your community or it's going to someone who is more likely going to shield it overseas.

And the Unions have done a disastrously bad job at this.  Decades of corruption and bad decisions has taken their toll ...

1943, 40% of the Private US workforce was unionized.  Today is is 8%.

Today 45% of all union workers are Government employees.  In the 1940s it was essentially zero.

Unions really have no place in the private workforce anymore,  Those that are left are relics of the past.  The reason is they pretty much killed every industry that was unionized.

Now that are killing the public sector but demanding too much and delivering too little.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree that you need more than a HS diploma, I will disagree when you say you need at least an undergraduate degree.

I have friends in the trades, plumbers, electricians, who are making money hand over fist. They only got technical training from a vocational school after high school.

The construction industry was decimated in 2008.  1/3 to 40% of trade workers lost their job.  

Those left are making money making money have to know their are at least two other guys ready to undercut their prices when giving the chance (which is where sites like Angie's list come in).  And unless you are an established tradesman, no one needs more plumbers or electricians.  HS kids need not apply.

The exception is oil workers in the Bakken field in North Dakota.  Starting salaries are $75,000 with no experience, $200,000 within two years.  But it very hard work and you have to live in rural North Dakota.

[Coleman]

And the Unions have done a disastrously bad job at this.  Decades of corruption and bad decisions has taken their toll ...

1943, 40% of the Private US workforce was unionized.  Today is is 8%.

Today 45% of all union workers are Government employees.  In the 1940s it was essentially zero.

Unions really have no place in the private workforce anymore,  Those that are left are relics of the past.  The reason is they pretty much killed every industry that was unionized.

Now that are killing the public sector but demanding too much and delivering too little.

I won't say unions had NO impact on American de-industrialization, but there were MANY MANY MANY reasons for this. Reasons you are ignoring.

Reasons such as globalization, cheaper workforces in China, India, southeast Asia. Advances in technology such as automation and robotics, increasing numbers of those with college degrees which led to the advent of a service economy, etc.

Blaming unions as the sole reason for a post-industrial American lacks nuance at best, and is dishonest at worst.

[Coleman]

The construction industry was decimated in 2008.  1/3 to 40% of trade workers lost their job.  

Those left are making money making money have to know their are at least two other guys ready to undercut their prices when giving the chance (which is where sites like Angie's list come in).  And unless you are an established tradesman, no one needs more plumbers or electricians.  HS kids need not apply.

The exception is oil workers in the Bakken field in North Dakota.  Starting salaries are $75,000 with no experience, $200,000 within two years.  But it very hard work and you have to live in rural North Dakota.

My buddy who is a plumber in NE Wisconsin and 28 years old would completely disagree with your assessment. He owns his own business and is so busy he is currently looking to hire an apprentice who is right out of high school. And pay them well.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And the Unions have done a disastrously bad job at this.  Decades of corruption and bad decisions has taken their toll ...

1943, 40% of the Private US workforce was unionized.  Today is is 8%.

Today 45% of all union workers are Government employees.  In the 1940s it was essentially zero.

Unions really have no place in the private workforce anymore,  Those that are left are relics of the past.  The reason is they pretty much killed every industry that was unionized.

Now that are killing the public sector but demanding too much and delivering too little.

Quite frankly, it should be outlawed.  I'm fine with private unions, but public unions are a poison to this country.  When you have governors in states negotiating the benefits, wages, etc of state employees while at the same time begging those very state employees to fund your campaign and vote for you, there is a quid pro quo going on.  It means the governor is promising benefits, pensions, etc that cannot be paid or afforded and won't manifest themselves until years after he\she is out of office, but the bill still has to be paid.

Its is killing the financial pinnings of this country and if I had to guess, at some point there will be blood in the streets as a result.  All those promised benefits, impossible to pay.  Financially impossible.  A lot of people promised those dollars are going to be very upset....I get it, but the sad thing is they never should have been promised some of these insane perks to begin with.  They were, of course, because they got their guy in office who returned the solid to them.

Public unions should not be negotiating with the executive who needs them to get into office in the first place.

[Tugg Speedman]

I won't say unions had NO impact on American de-industrialization, but there were MANY MANY MANY reasons for this. Reasons you are ignoring.

Reasons such as globalization, cheaper workforces in China, India, southeast Asia. Advances in technology such as automation and robotics, increasing numbers of those with college degrees which led to the advent of a service economy, etc.

Blaming unions as the sole reason for a post-industrial American lacks nuance at best, and is dishonest at worst.

Private sector union membership has been declining for 70 years.  I picked 1943 as that was it was the all-time high in private sector union membership.

globalization, cheaper workforces in China, India, southeast Asia. Advances in technology such as automation and robotics, increasing numbers of those with college degrees which led to the advent of a service economy

All correct ... and through this unions have shown an absolutely inability to adapt to the changes of the last 70 years which is why they no longer serve any useful role in the private sector.

Union were useful from the 1880s to the 1940s.  They stopped by useful once WW2 ended.

[Coleman]

Quite frankly, it should be outlawed.  I'm fine with private unions, but public unions are a poison to this country.  When you have governors in states negotiating the benefits, wages, etc of state employees while at the same time begging those very state employees to fund your campaign and vote for you, there is a quid pro quo going on.  It means the governor is promising benefits, pensions, etc that cannot be paid or afforded and won't manifest themselves until years after he\she is out of office, but the bill still has to be paid.

Its is killing the financial pinnings of this country and if I had to guess, at some point there will be blood in the streets as a result.  All those promised benefits, impossible to pay.  Financially impossible.  A lot of people promised those dollars are going to be very upset....I get it, but the sad thing is they never should have been promised some of these insane perks to begin with.  They were, of course, because they got their guy in office who returned the solid to them.

Public unions should not be negotiating with the executive who needs them to get into office in the first place.

I agree with you, but unions aren't the only ones doing the "quid pro quo" you speak of.

Major corporations donate millions so they can get lots of goodies from Congress. It happens everywhere.

I am uncomfortable allowing executives to continue doing this while outlawing working and middle class workers from doing the same.

[Coleman]

Private sector union membership has been declining for 70 years.  I picked 1943 as that was it was the all-time high in private sector union membership.

globalization, cheaper workforces in China, India, southeast Asia. Advances in technology such as automation and robotics, increasing numbers of those with college degrees which led to the advent of a service economy

All correct ... and through this unions have shown an absolutely inability to adapt to the changes of the last 70 years which is why they no longer serve any useful role in the private sector.

Union were useful from the 1880s to the 1940s.  They stopped by useful once WW2 ended.

I'd point you to Germany, where there is a massive industrial and manufacturing economy, with a strong union presence (called works councils there). It can be done, and done well so it benefits works and companies together.

[Benny B]

I'm saying maybe Walmart shouldn't be allowed to pay their employees an amount so little that they cannot actually live on it. We are subsidizing their profits in essence.

Also, yes if every retail employee in the country stopped working, that would ground the country to a halt. Same with most large labor groups/industries.

I find it curious that so few people understand the simple concept of supply and demand.  If Walmart is such a travesty to society (which apparently it isn't because those jobs are critical to society despite the fact that they're detrimental to society), the answer is simple --- don't shop there.  Nobody is being forced to spend their money there just like nobody is forcing people to work there.

If you're so upset that Walmart's employees earn so little money, then start your own business and poach their employees so you can pay them "living wage" jobs.

[Tugg Speedman]

My buddy who is a plumber in NE Wisconsin and 28 years old would completely disagree with your assessment. He owns his own business and is so busy he is currently looking to hire an apprentice who is right out of high school. And pay them well.

I'm happy you know a plumber in Green bay that is doing well.  Fact is the construction trades have been a killing field in terms of employment.  No one was harder hit that this sector during the financial crisis.

In the 1970 housing starts neared 3 million a year.  This year they it is less than a million, same as 1925!!  That lots of plumbers, electricians and bricklayers now on welfare.

http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/2-8-million-construction-jobs-are-missing/

[muwarrior69]

Quite frankly, it should be outlawed.  I'm fine with private unions, but public unions are a poison to this country.  When you have governors in states negotiating the benefits, wages, etc of state employees while at the same time begging those very state employees to fund your campaign and vote for you, there is a quid pro quo going on.  It means the governor is promising benefits, pensions, etc that cannot be paid or afforded and won't manifest themselves until years after he\she is out of office, but the bill still has to be paid.

Its is killing the financial pinnings of this country and if I had to guess, at some point there will be blood in the streets as a result.  All those promised benefits, impossible to pay.  Financially impossible.  A lot of people promised those dollars are going to be very upset....I get it, but the sad thing is they never should have been promised some of these insane perks to begin with.  They were, of course, because they got their guy in office who returned the solid to them.

Public unions should not be negotiating with the executive who needs them to get into office in the first place.

Detroit anyone?

[🏀]

Laborers 140 and Operators 139 are both very concerned about the lack of skilled workers under the age of 45, as am I.

Either position can offer you a position of working April-November and taking home $80,000.

[brandx]

I find it curious that so few people understand the simple concept of supply and demand.  If Walmart is such a travesty to society (which apparently it isn't because those jobs are critical to society despite the fact that they're detrimental to society), the answer is simple --- don't shop there.  Nobody is being forced to spend their money there just like nobody is forcing people to work there.

If you're so upset that Walmart's employees earn so little money, then start your own business and poach their employees so you can pay them "living wage" jobs.

You miss the point. The fact that they pay their employees so little that YOU have to subsidize their healthcare and provide them with food stamps while their employers make BILLION$$ is the point.

You really want to shop somewhere where you are also paying the employees with your tax dollars? Go ahead.

[Tugg Speedman]

Laborers 140 and Operators 139 are both very concerned about the lack of skilled workers under the age of 45, as am I.

Either position can offer you a position of working April-November and taking home $80,000.

Note what 2008 financial crisis did to this industry and how it is not recovering.  Given this why would someone under 45 want to enter this industry?

[mu03eng]

I'm happy you know a plumber in Green bay that is doing well.  Fact is the construction trades have been a killing field in terms of employment.  No one was harder hit that this sector during the financial crisis.

In the 1970 housing starts neared 3 million a year.  This year they it is less than a million, same as 1925!!  That lots of plumbers, electricians and bricklayers now on welfare.

http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/2-8-million-construction-jobs-are-missing/

Disagree, housing starts aren't the only metric.  Aging infrastructure and existing building remodeling account for far more employment opportunity than housing starts

[mu03eng]

Note what 2008 financial crisis did to this industry and how it is not recovering.  Given this why would someone under 45 want to enter this industry?

Hey good news, I can play with statistics too to make pictures look horrendous.

The graph is of % of construction jobs, how do they define those jobs, what happened to the total employment market, are there jobs going unfilled in construction....etc.

The economy has changed significantly over the last 15 years and the educational system has changed to match.....that is the gap, not the jobs that are actually available.

[Benny B]

You miss the point. The fact that they pay their employees so little that YOU have to subsidize their healthcare and provide them with food stamps while their employers make BILLION$$ is the point.

You really want to shop somewhere where you are also paying the employees with your tax dollars? Go ahead.

Got it... stop the subsidies to the employees, employers become poor, and life is good for the rest of us.

[mu03eng]

Note what 2008 financial crisis did to this industry and how it is not recovering.  Given this why would someone under 45 want to enter this industry?

Also note the high water marks coincide with the housing bubbles that later busted historically....not sure you want to beg your barometer to those points in history.  According to your graph construction % is closer to the mean than 2007 was.

[Badgerhater]

If you are a carpenter who swings a hammer on a new house.....you got killed in the recession.  If you are a plumber or electrician who works on existing homes, you have more work than you know what to do with.

[🏀]

Note what 2008 financial crisis did to this industry and how it is not recovering.  Given this why would someone under 45 want to enter this industry?

Availability of work and more than decent wage with zero education required both with an excellence shot at advancement with time due to the age gap.

[Aughnanure]

Actually it hasn't been disproven, let alone over and over and over again.  Look at the CBO's latest report for just on such example.   Must be like "settled science"  


500K job losses estimated by CBO  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/02/18/cbo-minimum-wage-jobs/5582779/

Hmmm. Estimated, eh? Funny how this is always refuted by looking at what actually happens when it is raised

I know you like it, cause it fits your purist logic...but try using actual history.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509.pdf?new_window=1
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-05/washington-shows-highest-minimum-wage-state-beats-u-s-with-jobs.html

[Coleman]

I'm happy you know a plumber in Green bay that is doing well.  Fact is the construction trades have been a killing field in terms of employment.  No one was harder hit that this sector during the financial crisis.

In the 1970 housing starts neared 3 million a year.  This year they it is less than a million, same as 1925!!  That lots of plumbers, electricians and bricklayers now on welfare.

http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/2-8-million-construction-jobs-are-missing/

Housing starts are maybe 5% of his business.

Most of it is simple repairs and maybe some remodeling.

Construction and plumbing are not analogous. Same goes with electricians. I never was talking about construction. I said "the trades."

Tradesmen working on existing homes are making a killing. For the same reason car mechanics make a killing when people don't buy new cars.