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Author Topic: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?  (Read 31105 times)

mu03eng

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2014, 04:12:17 PM »
There is no proven evidence for this myth capitalism-purists trot out freaking every time. None.

I'm confused as to how you think this is a myth.  Car manufacturing has automated, why couldn't McDonalds?  Look at the grocery store, there are now self-service check outs, doesn't that count as automation?

Look into RFID some time.  Want to really automate a grocery store, make labor expensive enough to equal the cost of RFID scanners and RFID tags on product

http://www.rfidarena.com/2013/4/2/item-level-tagging-in-the-grocery-industry-are-we-there-yet.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFNGiTGyQzk
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Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2014, 04:23:10 PM »
I'm confused as to how you think this is a myth.  Car manufacturing has automated, why couldn't McDonalds?  Look at the grocery store, there are now self-service check outs, doesn't that count as automation?

Look into RFID some time.  Want to really automate a grocery store, make labor expensive enough to equal the cost of RFID scanners and RFID tags on product

http://www.rfidarena.com/2013/4/2/item-level-tagging-in-the-grocery-industry-are-we-there-yet.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFNGiTGyQzk

I was more referring to the idea that raising minimum-wage increases unemployment, which has been disproven over and over again. This is mainly due to the fact that people at the lower end of the economic spectrum put more of the extra money they receive back into the economy - especially locally.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/higher-minimum-wage-small-business-doesnt-mind
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 04:29:45 PM by Aughnanure »
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Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2014, 04:24:13 PM »
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2014, 04:28:41 PM »
There is always a breaking point for automation vs human labor.

China still does a lot of road construction by hand, because labor is cheap, and almost unlimited. Heavy equipment is expensive.

You can't afford that in the US, man-power is just too expensive. You're way better off getting heavy equipment that can do the work of 50 men.

What does this mean for the future of labor? I don't really know... but I can tell you this cycle has been going on in the US since the industrial revolution.

muwarrior69

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2014, 04:46:32 PM »
I was more referring to the idea that raising minimum-wage increases unemployment, which has been disproven over and over again. This is mainly due to the fact that people at the lower end of the economic spectrum put more of the extra money they receive back into the economy - especially locally.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/higher-minimum-wage-small-business-doesnt-mind


But MU03eng's contention is that if the government mandates higher minimum wages it will lead companies to automate which will not be good for anyone especially the low wage earners. I don't like it any more than you do. Though I like the convenience of online shopping, banking etc. I do miss that personal interaction between human beings.

rocket surgeon

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2014, 05:05:01 PM »
No, because they're already doing it. This is happening absent a minimum wage raise.

by that statement, then it is(automation) is going to continue.  just as the refrigerator caused the loss of ice makers and ice delivery people, automation should give rise to other jobs.  maintenance, information tech., manufacturing to some extent of said automation products, etc.  this will also necessitate the need for more education, teachers...in these areas.  may the best man/woman/person win.  you can try to fight it, disagree with it all you want, but automation is reality.

p.s. walmarts health insurance is better than obamacare and that is worth money.  many people are trying to get a job with them just for the healthcare alone
don't...don't don't don't don't

Coleman

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2014, 05:15:35 PM »

p.s. walmarts health insurance is better than obamacare and that is worth money.  many people are trying to get a job with them just for the healthcare alone

Not sure how you can make such a claim when Obamacare is merely a collection of state exchanges or marketplaces with many different tiers of plans by many different providers. Some exchanges have more options than others, and some providers are better than others.

So saying one company's health insurance plan is better than this is basically a nonsensical statement.

jesmu84

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2014, 05:18:28 PM »
I would like to point out that these minimum wage jobs and other entry level positions were NEVER meant to be full-time, life-long jobs that people were supposed to be supporting a family on. When other sources of employment dried up, unskilled workers were forced down into these positions that should be handled by teens and others.

WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2014, 05:20:16 PM »
Minimum wage was instituted to get people into the workforce , gain experience and a track record to advance particularly teens just entering the  job market. It was never intended to be a living wage just something businesses could absorb while training neophytes while they gained knowledge and marketable skills.

jesmu84

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2014, 05:20:38 PM »
What is the appropriate amount of money to live on and what is the skill set/capability that an employee must exhibit to receive that wage?

Not being flippant, but you have to define that....additionally, you want to see Walmart or McDonald's jobs go away, raise the wage to make it more attractive for those companies to automate.  Fast food restaurants no longer (in most but not all) take orders onsite through the drive through....that's actually a call center you are talking to.

I have never been to a place that does this. Where are you talking about? Which chains? Which cities?

brandx

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2014, 05:36:13 PM »
Minimum wage was instituted to get people into the workforce , gain experience and a track record to advance particularly teens just entering the  job market. It was never intended to be a living wage just something businesses could absorb while training neophytes while they gained knowledge and marketable skills.

Correct. But then millions of manufacturing jobs were sent overseas. Suddenly, millions of people who were supporting their families just fine had no other option but to work low paid jobs. And the residual effect was that they no longer had the money to help send their kids through college so they could have better lives.

I lived this 30 years ago. Worked in a factory for a good wage till the jobs left. Luckily, Aspin had pushed through re-education bills for those that lost jobs and I went back to finish my degree. But a good portion of those that lost jobs didn't have the option of going to college and less and less good paying jobs became available for them.

So, many took minimum wage jobs just to survive.

rocket surgeon

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2014, 05:38:41 PM »
Not sure how you can make such a claim when Obamacare is merely a collection of state exchanges or marketplaces with many different tiers of plans by many different providers. Some exchanges have more options than others, and some providers are better than others.

So saying one company's health insurance plan is better than this is basically a nonsensical statement.

this is how i can make my claim, but thanks for asking

http://washingtonexaminer.com/surprise-walmart-health-plan-is-cheaper-offers-more-coverage-than-obamacare/article/2541670
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brandx

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2014, 05:48:20 PM »
this is how i can make my claim, but thanks for asking

http://washingtonexaminer.com/surprise-walmart-health-plan-is-cheaper-offers-more-coverage-than-obamacare/article/2541670

You need to find out how Walmart works.

It's plan is like other company plans in that they pay enough of the premium so an employee pays less than if they bought insurance on their own. So, it is a completely different animal. Again, you need to learn the difference between company supplied insurance and an individual buying insurance.

But the wal-Mart plan is not quite as good as the article makes it out to be.

Walmart, the nation’s largest private employer, plans to begin denying health insurance to newly hired employees who work fewer than 30 hours a week, according to a copy of the company’s policy obtained by The Huffington Post.

Under the policy, slated to take effect in January, Walmart also reserves the right to eliminate health care coverage for certain workers if their average workweek dips below 30 hours -- something that happens with regularity and at the direction of company managers.

Walmart declined to disclose how many of its roughly 1.4 million U.S. workers are vulnerable to losing medical insurance under its new policy. In an emailed statement, company spokesman David Tovar said Walmart had “made a business decision” not to respond to questions from The Huffington Post and accused the publication of unfair coverage.

Labor and health care experts portrayed Walmart’s decision to exclude workers from its medical plans as an attempt to limit costs while taking advantage of the national health care reform known as Obamacare. Among the key features of Obamacare is an expansion of Medicaid, the taxpayer-financed health insurance program for poor people. Many of the Walmart workers who might be dropped from the company’s health care plans earn so little that they would qualify for the expanded Medicaid program, these experts said.

“Walmart is effectively shifting the costs of paying for its employees onto the federal government with this new plan, which is one of the problems with the way the law is structured,” said Ken Jacobs, chairman of the Labor Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley.

For Walmart, this latest policy represents a step back in time. Almost seven years ago, as Walmart confronted public criticism that its employees couldn't afford its benefits, the company announced with much fanfare that it would expand health coverage for part-time workers.

forgetful

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #88 on: September 22, 2014, 06:42:03 PM »
this is how i can make my claim, but thanks for asking

http://washingtonexaminer.com/surprise-walmart-health-plan-is-cheaper-offers-more-coverage-than-obamacare/article/2541670

Walmart's own website refute's this article.  They state that their plan costs $18 a day.  That is almost $550 a month.

Also, their individual plan has a deductible of $4400 a year.  Given the average Walmart employee makes less than $25000 a year, the average employee qualifies for subsidies.

An equivalent plan with subsidies would be FREE on Obamacare.

Walmart has publicly admitted that their employees are better off with government assistance (aka medical coverage).

jesmu84

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2014, 07:04:01 PM »
Interesting article from Nate Silver's website: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-american-middle-class-hasnt-gotten-a-raise-in-15-years/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

I'm probably walking a fine line of getting the ban hammer with some of this.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:07:15 PM by jesmu84 »

mu03eng

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #90 on: September 22, 2014, 07:44:21 PM »
I have never been to a place that does this. Where are you talking about? Which chains? Which cities?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/technology/11fast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Old article but only one I could find from a good source in a hurry.  I know Wendy's and Panda Express do it as well.
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77ncaachamps

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #91 on: September 22, 2014, 07:47:29 PM »
We need the working class to keep working.

Or this may happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BQPV-iCkU
SS Marquette

mu03eng

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #92 on: September 22, 2014, 07:50:12 PM »
I would like to point out that these minimum wage jobs and other entry level positions were NEVER meant to be full-time, life-long jobs that people were supposed to be supporting a family on. When other sources of employment dried up, unskilled workers were forced down into these positions that should be handled by teens and others.

This is completely correct, the issue is not that the low wage jobs aren't paying enough.....it's that there are too many people unqualified to do other jobs and needing these jobs to support themselves.  The answer in all of this is the failed education system.  We have not prepared the current generation of workers for the new labor market.  High school hasn't really changed in 30 years in terms of preparing individuals who will not be going onto a 4 year college degree.

Raising minimum wage doesn't do anything to rectify that issue and merely masks it somewhat temporarily and long term makes it worse by bringing automation into the workforce widening the gap between the low wage worker and the jobs open to them.
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #93 on: September 22, 2014, 08:38:04 PM »
I was more referring to the idea that raising minimum-wage increases unemployment, which has been disproven over and over again. This is mainly due to the fact that people at the lower end of the economic spectrum put more of the extra money they receive back into the economy - especially locally.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/higher-minimum-wage-small-business-doesnt-mind


Actually it hasn't been disproven, let alone over and over and over again.  Look at the CBO's latest report for just on such example.   Must be like "settled science"   ::)


500K job losses estimated by CBO  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/02/18/cbo-minimum-wage-jobs/5582779/

« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 08:44:44 PM by ChicosBailBonds »

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #94 on: September 22, 2014, 08:42:03 PM »
Costs are even higher in Germany and they are doing just fine.  Oh, and they have stricter environmental regulations then in the USA.


Their low corporate tax rate sure isn't hurting them....maybe here in the USA we'll get a clue


Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #95 on: September 22, 2014, 09:22:17 PM »
Fast food restaurants no longer (in most but not all) take orders onsite through the drive through....that's actually a call center you are talking to.

McD even experimented with indian call centers at drive throughs.

But now that is giving way to keypads at the drive through and phone apps for your order.

People cost too much and hiking the minimum wage will a create their demise.  About 90% of the studies say this, the other 10% get all the attention.

By the way who's most favorite hiking the minimum wage?  Labor unions as they have lots of contracts tied to the minimum wage (ie., this job gets 250% the minimum wage).  While labor unions push for the minimum wage hike the hardest they actually care the least about people that actually get paid the minimum wage because none of them are union workers.   There just fodder to get union workers better pay.

77ncaachamps

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2014, 12:20:06 AM »
By the way who's most favorite hiking the minimum wage?  Labor unions as they have lots of contracts tied to the minimum wage (ie., this job gets 250% the minimum wage).  While labor unions push for the minimum wage hike the hardest they actually care the least about people that actually get paid the minimum wage because none of them are union workers.   There just fodder to get union workers better pay.

But that's what unions are for: to increase the earnings and benefits for their members.

Much like industry groups work: increase the profits and access to resources for their corporate members.

Everyone is in on the pie.

Either the $ is going to a person who's actually going to spend it in your community or it's going to someone who is more likely going to shield it overseas.
SS Marquette

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #97 on: September 23, 2014, 07:15:46 AM »
There is always a breaking point for automation vs human labor.

China still does a lot of road construction by hand, because labor is cheap, and almost unlimited. Heavy equipment is expensive.

You can't afford that in the US, man-power is just too expensive. You're way better off getting heavy equipment that can do the work of 50 men.

What does this mean for the future of labor? I don't really know... but I can tell you this cycle has been going on in the US since the industrial revolution.

I saw this.  10 years ago my former company sent a product to China.  The move made no sense financially (ROI never paid-back) other than they wanted to close the facility in the middle of no-where Puerto Rico.  The line was fully automated in PR.  They had a Technician who basically monitored and took care of 2 or 3 similar running lines simultaneously.  The product got sent to the new facility in China where the automation disappeared and was replaced by like 30 assemblers. 

They tried to conduct a few Kaizen events and the same thing happened in every event - "the team came up with some fixes that would reduce cost/assembly time, but the plant manager would always reply that they could just hire another 10 people at an even lesser cost to basically do the same thing."

mu03eng

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2014, 07:47:37 AM »
Again, the issue is not that these jobs are paid a wage that doesn't support a family, it's that the people seeking these jobs need them for support because they aren't qualified for better jobs to support them.

There is a labor shortage in certain jobs, jobs that are very sustainable from a family standpoint, however the labor force hasn't been positioned to support those jobs.  That is ultimately the fault of primary and secondary education and by extension government policies regarding those educational paths.
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #99 on: September 23, 2014, 09:13:59 AM »
Again, the issue is not that these jobs are paid a wage that doesn't support a family, it's that the people seeking these jobs need them for support because they aren't qualified for better jobs to support them.

There is a labor shortage in certain jobs, jobs that are very sustainable from a family standpoint, however the labor force hasn't been positioned to support those jobs.  That is ultimately the fault of primary and secondary education and by extension government policies regarding those educational paths.

I think your right.

But, here's what I don't know:

Are there enough decent jobs for HS graduates right now? It's easy to say they shouldn't be working at Wal-Mart, but are there enough attainable jobs out there that pay a livable wage? I know there are technical jobs (electrician, plumber, HVAC etc.), but those require additional training.

I'm talking about a the day you walk out of HS, are there jobs where you can start at 20K+ and work your way up from there?

In the 1950's, I think were industrial-type jobs way you'd start on the bottom, but there was opportunity for upward movement for those that stuck with it. A guy could carve out a decent living eventually. Right? Or am I dreaming that?

The solution might be more based upon our education and training system. We're training/educating kids like it's 1950. Maybe it's time we train them like it's 2050.