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Author Topic: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?  (Read 31108 times)

real chili 83

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2014, 10:44:19 AM »
Of course it is. I try to keep posts short so there is going to be some generalization.

I have no argument with what you say in your post.

Wow.

Can you and Sheriff do some marriage counseling for Chicos and Lenny?

 ;D

brandx

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2014, 11:30:22 AM »
Wow.

Can you and Sheriff do some marriage counseling for Chicos and Lenny?

 ;D

Or for Chicos and almost everybody?

rocket surgeon

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2014, 07:53:04 PM »
Oh my, more generalizations from the man from Orange Cty.  Time to return to the IGNORE button.

 ?-(
don't...don't don't don't don't

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2014, 07:24:45 AM »
We could do much more if we wanted, but the costs are too high in this country and whacky regulations (which drive those costs) mean the jobs go elsewhere.  Now before some idiot starts saying clean water and air and blah blah scare tactics at me, of course the American people want that.  The question becomes at what point does it go too far?  At what point does 5 parts per billion need to go to 3 parts per billion and has no recordable environmental impact but means a bunch of jobs are loss as a result.  Those are the questions that I believe should be asked and analyzed.

Of course, we could keep building choo choo trains that very few people will ride and cost an enormous amount of money to build and maintain....if one can get into that sector you have a chance on easy street for a while.

Costs are even higher in Germany and they are doing just fine.  Oh, and they have stricter environmental regulations then in the USA.

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2014, 09:01:21 AM »
In 1900 50% of all jobs were in farms.  In 2000 it was less than 2%.  Farms in 2000 produce 20 times the food than farms in 1900, with 4% of the workers.

Similar the US Auto industry is set to produce nearly 17 million cars in 2014, the most since 2005.  HOWEVER, the auto industry is going to produce the same number of cars this year but with 40% less workers than 2005!  More than 90% less workers than 30 years ago when they also produced 17 million cars.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics defines "large companies" as those with more than 1000 workers.  Currently all workers at large companies is a smaller work force than 1980, yet these companies produce 6 times more "stuff" than 1980.

More antidotes .... Reuters now has computer programs that write news stories, they produce more content  than ever with an ever shrinking pool of reporters.

Tesla is set to break ground on a massive $5 billion giga factory in Nevada.  When Elon musk was asked how many workers it would employ, he said hopefully zero.  Raw materials would go into receiving and the final product would come out of shipping and everything in between would be automated.

Finally I wrote this post using the voice recognition on my iPad.  Hardly had to type anything and I didn't need a secretary to do it.


Get ready for massive change!  

And none of those workers got paid more for being more productive for the industries.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Benny B

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2014, 09:13:14 AM »
Costs are even higher in Germany and they are doing just fine.  Oh, and they have stricter environmental regulations then in the USA.

Who's "they"?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/01/us-germany-economy-gdp-idUSKBN0GW1GR20140901
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2014, 09:27:13 AM »
And none of those workers got paid more for being more productive for the industries.

I beg to differ. As farmers became more productive they made a boatload more. And the wages/benefits to auto workers grew (along with wages/benefits to management) enough to bankrupt America's largest car company.

The real question: if technology is the reason for productivity, should the workers be rewarded? Is the man who watches the machine do what 3 men used to do worth more than each of those 3? Is one night watchman who sits in an office and monitors a large plant by watching TV cameras worth more than each of the 3 who used to have to physically walk the plant? The people who invent/develop/manufacture/etc. the technology are the ones responsible for the increased productivity. Shouldn't they be the ones rewarded for it?

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2014, 09:44:54 AM »
I beg to differ. As farmers became more productive they made a boatload more. And the wages/benefits to auto workers grew (along with wages/benefits to management) enough to bankrupt America's largest car company.

The real question: if technology is the reason for productivity, should the workers be rewarded? Is the man who watches the machine do what 3 men used to do worth more than each of those 3? Is one night watchman who sits in an office and monitors a large plant by watching TV cameras worth more than each of the 3 who used to have to physically walk the plant? The people who invent/develop/manufacture/etc. the technology are the ones responsible for the increased productivity. Shouldn't they be the ones rewarded for it?

Lol. You think it was the actual farmers that got the increase in profits? Go look at the actual distribution of the U.S.'s income that goes to the middle class over time.

And yes they should be rewarded. But why shouldn't the people actually producing it (farmers, manufacturing workers) be as well? American manufacturers are the most productive in the world yet their income relative to inflation has gone down. Just because you can pay s*** wages doesn't mean you should. We act like doing this will have no adverse affects. You want a severe underclass? Then keep pushing for all the progress of our economy goes to an increasingly smaller and limited group (which, by the way, generally means to exec management and not to the "inventors").
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Benny B

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2014, 10:30:08 AM »
Lol. You think it was the actual farmers that got the increase in profits? Go look at the actual distribution of the U.S.'s income that goes to the middle class over time.

And yes they should be rewarded. But why shouldn't the people actually producing it (farmers, manufacturing workers) be as well? American manufacturers are the most productive in the world yet their income relative to inflation has gone down. Just because you can pay s*** wages doesn't mean you should. We act like doing this will have no adverse affects. You want a severe underclass? Then keep pushing for all the progress of our economy goes to an increasingly smaller and limited group (which, by the way, generally means to exec management and not to the "inventors").

There are real-world examples too numerous to mention where people who worked in manufacturing decided that it was in their best interests to get out of that sector and go into something that was a little more stable over the long-term.  Just because you earn s*** wages doesn't mean you have to.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2014, 10:39:28 AM »
Lol. You think it was the actual farmers that got the increase in profits? Go look at the actual distribution of the U.S.'s income that goes to the middle class over time.

And yes they should be rewarded. But why shouldn't the people actually producing it (farmers, manufacturing workers) be as well? American manufacturers are the most productive in the world yet their income relative to inflation has gone down. Just because you can pay s*** wages doesn't mean you should. We act like doing this will have no adverse affects. You want a severe underclass? Then keep pushing for all the progress of our economy goes to an increasingly smaller and limited group (which, by the way, generally means to exec management and not to the "inventors").

Regarding U.S. farmers, I won't argue about who benefits from their increased productivity since I don't really know. I do know, though, that farmland in the U.S.is through the roof - anyone who owns it is in very good shape. You never addressed what happened at General Motors, so I assume you're in agreement with me that the greed of both labor and management brought them down.

I agree with you that these are tricky times. The global economy has made unskilled manufacturing jobs in this country pretty much go away. Minimum wage jobs were traditionally for part time young people or entry level positions that people left behind once they developed a skill set. Many are now in them for protracted periods.

I don't want to get into a long harangue on capitalism vs some other ism or free markets vs government planned economies. I do think, though, that private/public partnerships can work, and if we're ever going to fill the skill gap we'll need a commitment in that direction and an acceptance that it will take some time. Can people check their ideologies at the door enough to accomplish something like this? I'm not overly optimistic.

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2014, 12:04:05 PM »
There are real-world examples too numerous to mention where people who worked in manufacturing decided that it was in their best interests to get out of that sector and go into something that was a little more stable over the long-term.  Just because you earn s*** wages doesn't mean you have to.

Why do people keep thinking there's some endless supply of better jobs? Yeah, just go try harder! These jobs are not optional, they are vital to the daily function of society. When Walmart employees cost U.S. taxpayers about $6.2 billion a year in public assistance, something is off on the monetary value being placed on those jobs.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2014, 12:08:23 PM »
Regarding U.S. farmers, I won't argue about who benefits from their increased productivity since I don't really know. I do know, though, that farmland in the U.S.is through the roof - anyone who owns it is in very good shape. You never addressed what happened at General Motors, so I assume you're in agreement with me that the greed of both labor and management brought them down.

I agree with you that these are tricky times. The global economy has made unskilled manufacturing jobs in this country pretty much go away. Minimum wage jobs were traditionally for part time young people or entry level positions that people left behind once they developed a skill set. Many are now in them for protracted periods.

I don't want to get into a long harangue on capitalism vs some other ism or free markets vs government planned economies. I do think, though, that private/public partnerships can work, and if we're ever going to fill the skill gap we'll need a commitment in that direction and an acceptance that it will take some time. Can people check their ideologies at the door enough to accomplish something like this? I'm not overly optimistic.

I don't generally disagree with you. At least you don't only blame the workers like too many do, and there's many factors that brought down U.S. automakers (lack of ingenuity as foreign cars flooded the market is one).

Agree completely on the last point. If you believe there is one -ism that fixes everything, you will fail spectacularly. One solution cannot fix all our problems.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

tower912

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2014, 12:18:00 PM »
Decades of lousy management brought down GM.   Not one factory worker was responsible for the Aztek.  Or having the Cavalier go 20 years without changing the platform.  Or the Ion.   Or the Celebrity's, Malibu's Malibu Maxx's, Alero's.  Not one of the 26 million GM cars that have been recalled are due to something one of the workers on the assembly line did.    Magagement decisions, one and all.   The UAW isn't blameless.   They did become bloated, they did demand too much.   They weren't pro-active looking for ways to improve the product.   But those are sprinkles on the 7 layer cake of what went wrong at GM.   Read Bob Lutz' about it sometime.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2014, 12:28:27 PM »
Or having the Cavalier go 20 years without changing the platform.

The University of Dayton thanks them for that.

Benny B

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2014, 12:41:02 PM »
Why do people keep thinking there's some endless supply of better jobs? Yeah, just go try harder! These jobs are not optional, they are vital to the daily function of society. When Walmart employees cost U.S. taxpayers about $6.2 billion a year in public assistance, something is off on the monetary value being placed on those jobs.

So are you saying Walmart's existence is vital to the daily function of society?  Or are you saying we need to stop paying public assistance to people who are already employed?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2014, 01:38:34 PM »
So are you saying Walmart's existence is vital to the daily function of society?  Or are you saying we need to stop paying public assistance to people who are already employed?

I'm saying maybe Walmart shouldn't be allowed to pay their employees an amount so little that they cannot actually live on it. We are subsidizing their profits in essence.

Also, yes if every retail employee in the country stopped working, that would ground the country to a halt. Same with most large labor groups/industries.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Lennys Tap

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2014, 02:02:53 PM »
I'm saying maybe Walmart shouldn't be allowed to pay their employees an amount so little that they cannot actually live on it. We are subsidizing their profits in essence.

Also, yes if every retail employee in the country stopped working, that would ground the country to a halt. Same with most large labor groups/industries.

Just out of curiosity, what would the minimum wage have to be for a family of 4 with one person employed working 40 hours for that family to not receive any government assistance? Honest question.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2014, 02:14:16 PM »
Doesn't matter about Walmart, they are being killed, like the rest of the retailers, by online shopping.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-21/retail-store-closures-soar-2014-highest-pace-lehman-collapse

Since the start of 2014, retailers have announced the closure of more than 2,400 units, amounting to 22.6 million square feet, more than double the closures at this point in 2013 (940 units and 6.9 million square feet). After several years of attempting to cut overhead costs, the acceleration in store closures appears to be a response on the part of retailers to cope with the challenge of ecommerce and structural declines in foot traffic, and the need to address declining levels of in-store productivity. The year-to-date totals for store closing activities now challenges 2009 as the most recent year for the highest number of store closings announcements.

------------

More of the same, we are in a mad scramble to do more with less people.  People are too expensive and raising the minimum wage just accelerates this process.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2014, 02:33:37 PM »
I'm saying maybe Walmart shouldn't be allowed to pay their employees an amount so little that they cannot actually live on it. We are subsidizing their profits in essence.

Also, yes if every retail employee in the country stopped working, that would ground the country to a halt. Same with most large labor groups/industries.

They don't.  They START them at minimum wage and then if the show they are good at what they do and responsible to show up and work and pass their drug test, they get a raise, and then another and another.

If you believe that day one everyone must START with enough money to raise a family of 4 (about $15/hour) then you are dooming all unskilled workers to a permanent underclass (which they might be part of anyway).  Not everyone is qualified before a day of work to make enough to raise a family of four.  That must be proven over time (like when you're 18 to 22).


mu03eng

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2014, 03:14:24 PM »
I'm saying maybe Walmart shouldn't be allowed to pay their employees an amount so little that they cannot actually live on it. We are subsidizing their profits in essence.

Also, yes if every retail employee in the country stopped working, that would ground the country to a halt. Same with most large labor groups/industries.

What is the appropriate amount of money to live on and what is the skill set/capability that an employee must exhibit to receive that wage?

Not being flippant, but you have to define that....additionally, you want to see Walmart or McDonald's jobs go away, raise the wage to make it more attractive for those companies to automate.  Fast food restaurants no longer (in most but not all) take orders onsite through the drive through....that's actually a call center you are talking to.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

brandx

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2014, 03:34:16 PM »
So are you saying Walmart's existence is vital to the daily function of society?  Or are you saying we need to stop paying public assistance to people who are already employed?

Maybe he's saying that employers who pay their employees so little that they need public assistance (money that you and I give to the gov't) to survive even though they work full-time should be among the richest people in the entire world.

You may not mind having your taxes make the Walton family richer. I do.

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2014, 03:48:31 PM »
What is the appropriate amount of money to live on and what is the skill set/capability that an employee must exhibit to receive that wage?

Not being flippant, but you have to define that....additionally, you want to see Walmart or McDonald's jobs go away, raise the wage to make it more attractive for those companies to automate.  Fast food restaurants no longer (in most but not all) take orders onsite through the drive through....that's actually a call center you are talking to.

There is no proven evidence for this myth capitalism-purists trot out freaking every time. None.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Aughnanure

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2014, 03:50:36 PM »
They don't.  They START them at minimum wage and then if the show they are good at what they do and responsible to show up and work and pass their drug test, they get a raise, and then another and another.

If you believe that day one everyone must START with enough money to raise a family of 4 (about $15/hour) then you are dooming all unskilled workers to a permanent underclass (which they might be part of anyway).  Not everyone is qualified before a day of work to make enough to raise a family of four.  That must be proven over time (like when you're 18 to 22).

It's amazing that you really believe this. Raises? Hah. Actual benefits? Hah.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

muwarrior69

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2014, 03:55:25 PM »
There is no proven evidence for this myth capitalism-purists trot out freaking every time. None.

Not quite true!

http://www.cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 03:57:06 PM by muwarrior69 »

mu03eng

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end for the working class?
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2014, 04:08:09 PM »
There is no proven evidence for this myth capitalism-purists trot out freaking every time. None.

Does this count as evidence?  http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/vendor-takes-shot-at-offering-self-serve-beer-in-miller-park-b99333130z1-271750411.html
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."