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Author Topic: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?  (Read 112632 times)

TedBaxter

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #175 on: September 16, 2014, 11:46:31 AM »
The firm I would want designing the new arena would be Populous (formerly HOK sports).  HOK designed the Bradley Center, so they know that area of the city and I still think putting a new arena north of the Bradley Center is the best option for many reasons. Populous designed the Amway Center in Orland0\o which was built for about the same amount as the projected new arena.  The Amway Center was 870,000 square feet.

http://populous.com/expertise/

The site north of the Bradley Center would give some leeway as far as how to position the building, especially if you eliminate Juneau between 4th and 6th.  Angle it from northeast to southwest so the front atrium could face towards the Milwaukee skyline to the southeast.  Restaurants, pro shop on the 4th Street side.

- Do the Bucks move their headquarters and if they do, is it in the arena itself or would they build it across 6th Street in the hillside to the north of the Juneau roundabout.  Parking for staff and players in the Bucks building at the street level with the offices and training facilities above the parking level and a secure/private skywalk to the arena.

- A new parking ramp just to the north of the current MATC parking ramp.

- If people aren't opposed to skywalks and want a tie in to the convention center, you could continue the existing skywalk across from the Hyatt and run it south and then go across the street and continue it between the Milwaukee Theatre and MECCA above the one story connector. Then skirt the Bradley Center's southwest edge and go between the Bradley Center and the MATC parking ramp until it gets to the new arena.  Accessible, heated and it could tie most everything together between Wisconsin Avenue and the new arena.  Kind of a pie in the sky idea, but it's something.

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Sir Lawrence

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #176 on: September 16, 2014, 11:49:17 AM »
Journal/Sentinel Building. 
It would open onto Pere Marquette Park and the river. 
The owners are real estate savvy. 
Ludum habemus.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2014, 11:49:53 AM »
Condos.
Office buildings.
Expansion of MATC and/or MSOE.
Target.

Well, in theory, it would be cool to be more aggressive/unique.

Retail/offices/condos are good if there is a significant demand, but maybe they could do something really unique with that amount of space (BC&Park East). It's not everyday that a property that size becomes available inside of a major city.

I'd hope that there is a good long-term, big vision idea out there.

Worlds biggest indoor waterpark? (just a random idea)

Litehouse

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #178 on: September 16, 2014, 11:56:47 AM »
North of the BC provides the best space if you're just building an arena, but I don't think it would do much to spur surrounding development.  The BC is already too far from central downtown, so putting it farther away would only make it more isolated.  IMO, the only reason to build a new arena is to drive new development.

I still say tear down the convention center/MECCA/Theatre and put it there, and build a new convention center between the new arena and the BC.

warriorchick

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2014, 12:10:18 PM »
Well, in theory, it would be cool to be more aggressive/unique.

Retail/offices/condos are good if there is a significant demand, but maybe they could do something really unique with that amount of space (BC&Park East). It's not everyday that a property that size becomes available inside of a major city.

I'd hope that there is a good long-term, big vision idea out there.

Worlds biggest indoor waterpark? (just a random idea)

I see your point.  Maybe something like they have done in Rosemont? They have a skating rink/outdoor concert stage surrounded by restaurants and entertainment venue, including a Hofbrau House and a funky 50's-homage bowling alley.  Also home of Big 1G HQ.

http://www.rosemont.com/mbfinancialpark/
Have some patience, FFS.

jficke13

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #180 on: September 16, 2014, 12:14:23 PM »
Well, in theory, it would be cool to be more aggressive/unique.

Retail/offices/condos are good if there is a significant demand, but maybe they could do something really unique with that amount of space (BC&Park East). It's not everyday that a property that size becomes available inside of a major city.

I'd hope that there is a good long-term, big vision idea out there.

Worlds biggest indoor waterpark? (just a random idea)

The Park East has been vacant since what? Norquist? That is a big plot of land that has been avaialble inside of a major city for a long long time and nobody has done squat with it.*

*Except one time I think some parking scofflaws sold parking on it illegally during a concert and disappeared into the night once the show started. Everyone got ticketed. Most revenue the land has ever generated.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2014, 12:19:21 PM »
The Park East has been vacant since what? Norquist? That is a big plot of land that has been avaialble inside of a major city for a long long time and nobody has done squat with it.*

*Except one time I think some parking scofflaws sold parking on it illegally during a concert and disappeared into the night once the show started. Everyone got ticketed. Most revenue the land has ever generated.

You're not wrong, but maybe that just illustrates that arenas aren't the economic boom they are purported to be. Which brings us back to square one: How valuable are the Bucks anyways?

It's taken 20 years for something to happen with the Pabst, and the Park East lot has sat vacant for a long time. Maybe a new arena isn't really the answer we are looking for.



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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2014, 12:41:00 PM »
The firm I would want designing the new arena would be Populous (formerly HOK sports).  HOK designed the Bradley Center, so they know that area of the city and I still think putting a new arena north of the Bradley Center is the best option for many reasons. Populous designed the Amway Center in Orland0\o which was built for about the same amount as the projected new arena.  The Amway Center was 870,000 square feet.

http://populous.com/expertise/

The site north of the Bradley Center would give some leeway as far as how to position the building, especially if you eliminate Juneau between 4th and 6th.  Angle it from northeast to southwest so the front atrium could face towards the Milwaukee skyline to the southeast.  Restaurants, pro shop on the 4th Street side.

- Do the Bucks move their headquarters and if they do, is it in the arena itself or would they build it across 6th Street in the hillside to the north of the Juneau roundabout.  Parking for staff and players in the Bucks building at the street level with the offices and training facilities above the parking level and a secure/private skywalk to the arena.

- A new parking ramp just to the north of the current MATC parking ramp.

- If people aren't opposed to skywalks and want a tie in to the convention center, you could continue the existing skywalk across from the Hyatt and run it south and then go across the street and continue it between the Milwaukee Theatre and MECCA above the one story connector. Then skirt the Bradley Center's southwest edge and go between the Bradley Center and the MATC parking ramp until it gets to the new arena.  Accessible, heated and it could tie most everything together between Wisconsin Avenue and the new arena.  Kind of a pie in the sky idea, but it's something.



Populous is the gold standard.

BrewCity83

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2014, 04:47:57 PM »
*Except one time I think some parking scofflaws sold parking on it illegally during a concert and disappeared into the night once the show started. Everyone got ticketed. Most revenue the land has ever generated.

How much did you guys make that night?
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Sir Lawrence

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #184 on: September 16, 2014, 05:06:49 PM »
Journal/Sentinel Building. 
It would open onto Pere Marquette Park and the river. 
The owners are real estate savvy. 

http://www.jsonline.com/news/bucks-owners-hope-to-pick-site-for-new-arena-by-years-end-b99352988z1-275347641.html

From the article:

"Other possibilities include land currently occupied by the headquarters of Journal Communications, 333 W. State St. Journal Communications, which publishes the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, occupies a square block between N. Old World Third St., and N. 4th St., and W. State St., and W. Kilbourn Ave.

While the Journal Communications building may not be big enough for an arena, sources say it would be ideal if the UW-Milwaukee Panther Arena, formerly known as the U.S. Cellular Arena, is demolished, creating even more open land. Franklyn Gimbel of the Wisconsin Center District board, which owns and operates the UWM Arena, is opposed to demolishing the 64-year-old structure."

These owners are all about real estate.  My guess is they want to develop that side of the Milwaukee River. 
Ludum habemus.

MUHoopsFan2

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #185 on: September 17, 2014, 12:39:55 AM »
http://www.jsonline.com/news/bucks-owners-hope-to-pick-site-for-new-arena-by-years-end-b99352988z1-275347641.html

From the article:

"Other possibilities include land currently occupied by the headquarters of Journal Communications, 333 W. State St. Journal Communications, which publishes the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, occupies a square block between N. Old World Third St., and N. 4th St., and W. State St., and W. Kilbourn Ave.

While the Journal Communications building may not be big enough for an arena, sources say it would be ideal if the UW-Milwaukee Panther Arena, formerly known as the U.S. Cellular Arena, is demolished, creating even more open land. Franklyn Gimbel of the Wisconsin Center District board, which owns and operates the UWM Arena, is opposed to demolishing the 64-year-old structure."

These owners are all about real estate.  My guess is they want to develop that side of the Milwaukee River. 
No. Out....of....the....question.

Please. DO NOT tear down the old Milwaukee Mecca Arena. That is a city landmark in great shape and should be perserved.

So some great Marquette Warriors vs Notre Dame and DePaul games there and Milwaukee Bucks basketball back in their infancy and hey day in that ole' barn.

Big time basketball 'pit' in the day. Many great memories there. The first Professional women's game held there and the first International and Chinese National team games there.

Home of the Harlem Globetrotters, the Ringling Bros. Barnum Bailey Circus, the home of main events involving 'da Crusher and many other events like graduations and whatnot.

And the place of Robert Indiana's colorful Mecca floor and where the Great Al McGuire danced atop the scorers table after a big time win against ND!

Good times.. 

Leave this building alone.

MUHoopsFan2

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #186 on: September 17, 2014, 12:53:45 AM »
You're not wrong, but maybe that just illustrates that arenas aren't the economic boom they are purported to be. Which brings us back to square one: How valuable are the Bucks anyways?

It's taken 20 years for something to happen with the Pabst, and the Park East lot has sat vacant for a long time. Maybe a new arena isn't really the answer we are looking for.



What are you talking about? What city is not an arena not a boon in? You are crazy.

There are citites like Nashville and St Louis and other towns that have arena's already built with no team in it.

If there is a city of such then they just lack vision and common sense on what to put around it.

That is why the Bucks have something going for them because you have guys from New York who have vision and can come up with something that can work.

They were supposed to use the land across from the Hilton Hotel and expand the Convention Center [which they never should have built in the first place] and expand the Hyatt Regency 25 years ago when I worked there and did nothing...

What should have happened is they should have kept the old Covention Ctr until right now and the New Bucks Arena should have gone right in that spot they are wasting.

And as much as I love the Milwaukee Arena they could have decided to keep it up next to the new one or tear it down for Parking and all the other shops or so they would put there.

Actually if it was me, both Miller Park and the New Bucks arena would be side by side downtown and both the Bradley Center and ole Mecca would be gone.

No one has vision here.

MUHoopsFan2

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #187 on: September 17, 2014, 01:00:46 AM »
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 01:06:45 AM by MUHoopsFan2 »

MU111

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #188 on: September 17, 2014, 08:18:08 AM »
What are you talking about? What city is not an arena not a boon in? You are crazy.

I'm not really even sure where to start here.  Arenas typically are not economic boons on their own unless they have solid, comprehensive development plans that goes along with.  A new arena could certainly revitalize whatever area of downtown it is placed.  However, I would ask why the area surrounding the Bradley Center is such a dead zone if arenas are supposed to automatically encourage development.

Quote
If there is a city of such then they just lack vision and common sense on what to put around it.

That is why the Bucks have something going for them because you have guys from New York who have vision and can come up with something that can work.

They were supposed to use the land across from the Hilton Hotel and expand the Convention Center [which they never should have built in the first place] and expand the Hyatt Regency 25 years ago when I worked there and did nothing...

The problem isn't typically a lack of vision, its a lack of a proper market.  Developers could have all kinds of grand plans, but if the market isn't going to support their developments, what can be done?  It is still very hard to get financing for new buildings in this economic climate.

Quote
What should have happened is they should have kept the old Covention Ctr until right now and the New Bucks Arena should have gone right in that spot they are wasting.

I agree that the current spot for the Milwaukee Center is not ideal, but the old MECCA convention center would be over 40 years old today if it had not been torn down.  Milwaukee can't even keep up with other cities with a 200,000+ square foot Wisconsin Center.  The old convention center was only 130,000.

Quote
No one has vision here.

Again, I don't think it's a lack of vision that is the problem.  I'll be interested to see what site is selected, but I think it's going to be the land immediately north of the BC.  That requires the least demolition and has the most surrounding open land for development.

Litehouse

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #189 on: September 17, 2014, 09:12:47 AM »
What should have happened is they should have kept the old Covention Ctr until right now and the New Bucks Arena should have gone right in that spot they are wasting.
They should just tear down the convention center/MECCA/Theatre and do it right.  New arena on Wisconsin and a convention center connecting the new arena to the BC.  Convention centers are just big rectangular boxes and easy to build.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #190 on: September 17, 2014, 09:35:57 AM »
I'm not really even sure where to start here.  Arenas typically are not economic boons on their own unless they have solid, comprehensive development plans that goes along with.  A new arena could certainly revitalize whatever area of downtown it is placed.  However, I would ask why the area surrounding the Bradley Center is such a dead zone if arenas are supposed to automatically encourage development.

The problem isn't typically a lack of vision, its a lack of a proper market.  Developers could have all kinds of grand plans, but if the market isn't going to support their developments, what can be done?  It is still very hard to get financing for new buildings in this economic climate.

I agree that the current spot for the Milwaukee Center is not ideal, but the old MECCA convention center would be over 40 years old today if it had not been torn down.  Milwaukee can't even keep up with other cities with a 200,000+ square foot Wisconsin Center.  The old convention center was only 130,000.

Again, I don't think it's a lack of vision that is the problem.  I'll be interested to see what site is selected, but I think it's going to be the land immediately north of the BC.  That requires the least demolition and has the most surrounding open land for development.

Nailed it.

If the Bucks and an arena are such huge economic drivers, Wouldn't there would have been private enterprises lined up to purchase the Pabst, Sydney Hih, the park east lot, or even National Ace? (all located close to the BC).

Turns out the BC has been around for 25 years, and just now some of those properties being developed. 25 years!

Certainly the Bucks help some restaurants on 3rd st, and help some hotels... but look at the reality of the neighborhood surrounding the BC. It's not exactly full of private businesses generating millions in tax revenue.

A new arena CAN be apart of successful urban planning for Milwaukee, but I don't think it's as simple as "Build it, and they will come".

We've tried that. Didn't really work.

Litehouse

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #191 on: September 17, 2014, 09:47:12 AM »
The problem with the BC is that it was a poor location for development to begin with.  The main demand for development would have been between the arena and downtown, but the MECCA/Theatre and the Journal-Sentinel building blocked all of that off and created a barrier.  MATC blocks everything to the west, and nobody wants to go any further north.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #192 on: September 17, 2014, 09:55:47 AM »
The problem with the BC is that it was a poor location for development to begin with.  The main demand for development would have been between the arena and downtown, but the MECCA/Theatre and the Journal-Sentinel building blocked all of that off and created a barrier.  MATC blocks everything to the west, and nobody wants to go any further north.

You're not wrong, but if NBA arenas (and teams) were such huge economic drivers, there should have been a lot of private money pouring in to develop the neighborhood all around the BC (including to the north). There's nothing wrong with that property if a private entity saw value in it. It took 20+ years for somebody to do something with the Pabst, and Sydney Hih was just taken down a handful of years ago.

The NBA, politicians, NBA fans, etc. are all going to tell us that a new arena would be a huge economic driver for Milwaukee. Well, we have the BC, and I don't know that it's been that.

It's nice. It's helps. It's important. But, it might not be as magical as we are going to be told.

A different neighborhood will help, and certainly better long term planning would help. But, as I said before, I don't think we can just pretend it's a "build it, and they will come" scenario. I'd love to see politicians/planners be honest about that. (won't happen).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 09:57:36 AM by Canned Goods n Ammo »

NersEllenson

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #193 on: September 17, 2014, 11:16:23 AM »
The lack of vision present in Milwaukee is evidenced by choosing to put Miller Park in parking lot of old County Stadium and not downtown.

Virtually every new basketball arena, baseball stadium and football stadium (other than Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, TX) has been built in downtown areas in the last 20 years.

Should have put Miller Park in the vacant lot right across from the bars on Water Street.  Can't imagine how nice of experience it could have been sitting in upper deck at stadium placed there being able to look out over downtown MKE and also get views of Lake Michigan. 

Blah blah blah about the whole tailgating thing - there could have been a dedicated tailgating lot downtwon, where fans could have been charged a premium to park in/use - But, taligating wouldn't be such a necessity as it was at County Stadium (since there is and was absolutely ZERO eating options around County Stadium/Miller Park.

The restaurants downtown would have been a hell of a lot more impacted by placing Miller Park there, than in a vacant lot in the middle of nowhere.  People tailgating spend their money at a grocery store for their tailgate food, and not at the bars and restaurants they otherwise would if they were in a downtown stadium location.  That is just 1 reason why and how an arena/stadium placed in the right place can impact economic growth.

"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #194 on: September 17, 2014, 11:31:51 AM »
The lack of vision present in Milwaukee is evidenced by choosing to put Miller Park in parking lot of old County Stadium and not downtown.

Virtually every new basketball arena, baseball stadium and football stadium (other than Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, TX) has been built in downtown areas in the last 20 years.

Should have put Miller Park in the vacant lot right across from the bars on Water Street.  Can't imagine how nice of experience it could have been sitting in upper deck at stadium placed there being able to look out over downtown MKE and also get views of Lake Michigan. 

Blah blah blah about the whole tailgating thing - there could have been a dedicated tailgating lot downtwon, where fans could have been charged a premium to park in/use - But, taligating wouldn't be such a necessity as it was at County Stadium (since there is and was absolutely ZERO eating options around County Stadium/Miller Park.

The restaurants downtown would have been a hell of a lot more impacted by placing Miller Park there, than in a vacant lot in the middle of nowhere.  People tailgating spend their money at a grocery store for their tailgate food, and not at the bars and restaurants they otherwise would if they were in a downtown stadium location.  That is just 1 reason why and how an arena/stadium placed in the right place can impact economic growth.



So what does that mean for a new NBA arena in Milwaukee?


reinko

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #195 on: September 17, 2014, 11:43:58 AM »
The lack of vision present in Milwaukee is evidenced by choosing to put Miller Park in parking lot of old County Stadium and not downtown.

Virtually every new basketball arena, baseball stadium and football stadium (other than Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, TX) has been built in downtown areas in the last 20 years.

Should have put Miller Park in the vacant lot right across from the bars on Water Street.  Can't imagine how nice of experience it could have been sitting in upper deck at stadium placed there being able to look out over downtown MKE and also get views of Lake Michigan. 

Blah blah blah about the whole tailgating thing - there could have been a dedicated tailgating lot downtwon, where fans could have been charged a premium to park in/use - But, taligating wouldn't be such a necessity as it was at County Stadium (since there is and was absolutely ZERO eating options around County Stadium/Miller Park.

The restaurants downtown would have been a hell of a lot more impacted by placing Miller Park there, than in a vacant lot in the middle of nowhere.  People tailgating spend their money at a grocery store for their tailgate food, and not at the bars and restaurants they otherwise would if they were in a downtown stadium location.  That is just 1 reason why and how an arena/stadium placed in the right place can impact economic growth.

Says the guy who doesn't live here.  The Brewers are 8th in attendance right now, ahead of the following teams that have new downtown stadiums.  Philly, Colorado, Baltimore, Cincy, DC, Pittsburgh, Minny, Cleveland, Seattle.

Plus, downtown was never a viable option.  It was either where it was, or the team would have bolted.



NersEllenson

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #196 on: September 17, 2014, 11:50:43 AM »
So what does that mean for a new NBA arena in Milwaukee?

It shows how ass backwards MKE "vision" has been in the past - just as it continues to be at present, considering as a city it is potentially going to let a pro sports franchise walk over not being willing to kick in $200M, while private money kicks in $400M or ~66% of money necessary to build an arena.

Had MKE put the Brewers stadium downtown, it then could have served as a natural place for a new basketball arena to be placed next to (at some point down the road)  Perhaps if the city had vision 15 years ago and realized at some point the Bradley Center would likely need to be replaced, they could have envisioned a scenario where at one point both stadiums are next to each other and parking lots would benefit both - Basketball season from Nov-May, Baseball picking up from April-October....lots of synergy by both, and now you have 122 nights of entertainment in downtown MKE instead of just 41.  LIkely would have spurred more young professionals to want to live downtown, more incidental attendance would have occurred at downtown Brewers stadium from all of the population density around downtown as it is.

I'm still waiting for you to share your vision as to what scenario you would want to see offered up by the city for it to make sense for it to invest the $200M you just can't seem to wrap your head around at present as to how that would be a worthwhile investment.

BTW - What kind of work do you do?  
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

warriorchick

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #197 on: September 17, 2014, 11:51:26 AM »


Blah blah blah about the whole tailgating thing - there could have been a dedicated tailgating lot downtwon, where fans could have been charged a premium to park in/use - But, taligating wouldn't be such a necessity as it was at County Stadium (since there is and was absolutely ZERO eating options around County Stadium/Miller Park.




People don't tailgate out of necessity.  If it was strictly because of the lack of food options, they would eat before they left home, or get a burger in the ball park.
Have some patience, FFS.

NersEllenson

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #198 on: September 17, 2014, 11:53:49 AM »
Says the guy who doesn't live here.  The Brewers are 8th in attendance right now, ahead of the following teams that have new downtown stadiums.  Philly, Colorado, Baltimore, Cincy, DC, Pittsburgh, Minny, Cleveland, Seattle.

Plus, downtown was never a viable option.  It was either where it was, or the team would have bolted.


Downtown was a viable option at the time - the whole debate was taking place while I was in Milwaukee from 1992-1997.

As for MKE's attendance numbers this year....the team was winning at a high clip until the last month.  The team would have drawn just as many at a downtown stadium.  All the bars and restaurants around the area would benefit.  Instead in the Tailgate driven location - only grocery stores collect that $$$ spent to tailgate/pregame.

And it would be a hell of a lot more enjoyable of experience sitting in the stadium with downtown views and lake views than the view offered by Miller Park..
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

MU82

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Re: A New Stadium For The 2017 Season?
« Reply #199 on: September 17, 2014, 12:00:40 PM »
Says the guy who doesn't live here. 

Come on ... a non-resident commenting on the inner workings of a town is no worse than an observer who didn't play H.S. hoops commenting on college basketball.

That's why no sane person would do the latter!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson