The thing you will miss most about Brent?

[MUCam]

Speaking of emotion clouding rationality, you actually felt MU was or would be soon competing for a National Championship?

Just so we are clear, my exact words were "the real belief that we might actually compete for a National Championship."

Did I say it was a certainty? No. Did I say it was going to happen for sure? No. Did I say we would play in or win a National Championship with Buzz? Nope.

Did I think, for the first time in a long time, that if the cards played out right we might be able to get there? More so than ever. Like I qualified originally, Buzz gave me the belief that we might just be able to compete for a National Championship.

Of course, a lot of things have to shake out the right way to play in a National Championship. But, Buzz had us in a position where, maybe, just maybe, things might work out in our favor. We were a mere two games away in the Elite Eight. A 1 in 8 chance, assuming all teams being equal, which I understand they are not. But, quite frankly, I thought we were there....and we might just "compete" for a National Championship.

It was a belief. A mere opinion. And it appears most disagree with you that it was clouded by emotion rather than rooted in rationality and past results.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

To be honest I think if otule doesn't go down in 2011-2012 MU is cutting down nets. At the very least a final 4 appearance

[TheBurrEffect]

To be honest I think if otule doesn't go down in 2011-2012 MU is cutting down nets. At the very least a final 4 appearance

Would have been a big possibility. At least to the final 4, he would have made an impact in the sweet 16.

[lurch91]

To be honest I think if otule doesn't go down in 2011-2012 MU is cutting down nets. At the very least a final 4 appearance

And if Dominic James doesn't break his foot, Buzz goes to a Final Four the first year on the job....

[Galway Eagle]

And if Dominic James doesn't break his foot, Buzz goes to a Final Four the first year on the job....

Nah Otule's injury that year was the difference maker.  But seriously I think both those teams could have gotten there.  The 08-09 team I think was better prepared and came so close except Zar couldn't control his feet.  11-12 team wasn't as ready for that spotlight I think which is why they choked (minus mayo) against Florida. 

[tower912]

To be honest I think if otule doesn't go down in 2011-2012 MU is cutting down nets. At the very least a final 4 appearance

I really admired CO, but I don't think he would have been a difference maker against Florida.   Another thing I will miss is the really long home winning streak.     

[TheBurrEffect]

I really admired CO, but I don't think he would have been a difference maker against Florida.   Another thing I will miss is the really long home winning streak.     

Really though that home win streak wasn't nearly as huge as what everyone made it out to be. They had the 8 home wins in the big east which was incredibly impressive, but it was also inflated because MU played most of their non conference big games at neutral sites during tournaments. Not to mention that it probably should have been broken by Uconn. That Junior 30 footer followed by points off the board most have killed some momentum.

[Golden Avalanche]

Reaching an Elite 8 isn't "a mile" from a Final 4.  It is one game.  Half the teams that make the E8 get to the Final Four.  (duh)

And MUCam said "contending" for a national title.  I would argue that being in a Final Four is contending for a national title.

Buzz never made a Final Four appearance. Coming off last season's campaign it didn't look like a Final Four was in the near future. I think it's a mile long stretch to believe your team could possibly make a Final Four (which, illogically perhaps, fans of 127 programs likely think before a season starts as long as all "bounces" right) and/or also believe your team is legitimately contending for a National Championship.

[GGGG]

Buzz never made a Final Four appearance. Coming off last season's campaign it didn't look like a Final Four was in the near future. I think it's a mile long stretch to believe your team could possibly make a Final Four (which, illogically perhaps, fans of 127 programs likely think before a season starts as long as all "bounces" right) and/or also believe your team is legitimately contending for a National Championship.

But as MUCam said above, "might actually compete for a national championship."  He didn't say "will" compete.  He also never said anything about competing for one in 2013-14...or 2014-15. 

Not to put words in his mouth, but after 2012-13 the trajectory was definitely upward.  Two S16s and an E8, with a real good recruiting class coming in.  There was legitimate reason for such optimism.

[Golden Avalanche]

Just so we are clear, my exact words were "the real belief that we might actually compete for a National Championship."

Did I say it was a certainty? No. Did I say it was going to happen for sure? No. Did I say we would play in or win a National Championship with Buzz? Nope.

Did I think, for the first time in a long time, that if the cards played out right we might be able to get there? More so than ever. Like I qualified originally, Buzz gave me the belief that we might just be able to compete for a National Championship.

Of course, a lot of things have to shake out the right way to play in a National Championship. But, Buzz had us in a position where, maybe, just maybe, things might work out in our favor. We were a mere two games away in the Elite Eight. A 1 in 8 chance, assuming all teams being equal, which I understand they are not. But, quite frankly, I thought we were there....and we might just "compete" for a National Championship.

It was a belief. A mere opinion. And it appears most disagree with you that it was clouded by emotion rather than rooted in rationality and past results.

As I write, a lot of "ifs" and "buts" and "maybes". It's obviously fair for your belief to be that way. Every fan believes their team will win. That's why we're fans. But there's also a sizable number of fans who subsidize the emotion with reason and rationality and recognize that thinking "if all goes right" is a long way from it all actually going right. That's why I asked if it was a legitimate belief. For you, it clearly was.

For me, not so much. My "ifs" and "buts" and "maybes" are hoping all would go right for a Final Four appearance, which I believe to be the peak for the Marquette program now and in the foreseeable future. Not once in my lifetime have I felt MU was a legitimate National Title contender nor "might actually compete" for a National Title.

[Spotcheck Billy]

at least during the off season, this site should be called Splitting Hairs instead of MUScoop

[ChicosBailBonds]

Buzz never made a Final Four appearance. Coming off last season's campaign it didn't look like a Final Four was in the near future. I think it's a mile long stretch to believe your team could possibly make a Final Four (which, illogically perhaps, fans of 127 programs likely think before a season starts as long as all "bounces" right) and/or also believe your team is legitimately contending for a National Championship.

Saw Sultan's quote in yours.....I think if people look at the number of unique programs that have gone to the Elite 8 vs the Final Four, it would show that it is a pretty big hurdle to go from one to the next.  Very few get to the Final Four, it's generally a collection of the same cast of characters for the most part.  Certainly there is the occasional  Butler, George Mason, Wichita State, but for the most part it is the top of the food chain.   For the Elite 8, many a program like Xavier, Gonzaga, Providence, Davidson, Dayton, Temple, etc.  Of course this is driven by double the teams, but from a distribution perspective my guess (I don't know the answer) is that you will find it's a huge jump from one to the next....maybe not a mile or whatever term was used, but a very big step.

[GGGG]

Saw Sultan's quote in yours.....I think if people look at the number of unique programs that have gone to the Elite 8 vs the Final Four, it would show that it is a pretty big hurdle to go from one to the next.  Very few get to the Final Four, it's generally a collection of the same cast of characters for the most part.  Certainly there is the occasional  Butler, George Mason, Wichita State, but for the most part it is the top of the food chain.   For the Elite 8, many a program like Xavier, Gonzaga, Providence, Davidson, Dayton, Temple, etc.  Of course this is driven by double the teams, but from a distribution perspective my guess (I don't know the answer) is that you will find it's a huge jump from one to the next....maybe not a mile or whatever term was used, but a very big step.

Unless I am counting wrong, the math doesn't agree with you.

Number of unique schools to get to an Elite 8:  130
Number of unique schools to get to a Final 4: 88
Number of unique schools to get to Championship: 57
Number of unique schools to win Championship:  35

So over half the schools who have gotten to an Elite 8 have eventually made it to the Final Four...ditto all the way to the championship.  Now what you could argue is that only 27% of schools who have made it to an Elite 8 have eventually won the championship - so does that make you "contending?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Tournament_bids_by_school_and_conference

[willie warrior]

He coached them to an Elite 8 after back to back S16s, won a conference title, and had put together a solid group of recruiting classes.

Why not?

Here's why: 17-15 after that Elite 8, with a bunch of talent. THAT IS THE BIG WHY NOT!!!!!!!

[Marquette84]

Unless I am counting wrong, the math doesn't agree with you.

Number of unique schools to get to an Elite 8:  130
Number of unique schools to get to a Final 4: 88
Number of unique schools to get to Championship: 57
Number of unique schools to win Championship:  35

So over half the schools who have gotten to an Elite 8 have eventually made it to the Final Four...ditto all the way to the championship.  Now what you could argue is that only 27% of schools who have made it to an Elite 8 have eventually won the championship - so does that make you "contending?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Tournament_bids_by_school_and_conference

So I went back over the past 20 years of champions and considered the talent on those championship teams. And I can't logically connect those real national champions with the notion that Buzz created a "real belief" that we might compete for a national championship--at least not one that can claimed to be based on "rationality and past results"

As good as his recruiting was, Buzz wasn't bringing in enough elite-level talent to rationally conclude that he was building a championship calibre team. And he wasn't a good enough coach or developer of talent to rationally conclude that he'd overcome such a talent deficit to attain the national championship level.

2014: UConn
2013: Louisville
2012: Kentucky
2011: UConn
2010: Duke
2009: UNC
2008: Kansas
2007: Florida
2006: Florida
2005: UNC
2004: UConn
2003: Syracuse
2002: Maryland
2001: Duke
2000: MSU
1999: UConn
1998: Kentucky
1997: Arizona
1996: Kentucky
1995: UCLA

[Lennys Tap]

Saw Sultan's quote in yours.....I think if people look at the number of unique programs that have gone to the Elite 8 vs the Final Four, it would show that it is a pretty big hurdle to go from one to the next.  Very few get to the Final Four, it's generally a collection of the same cast of characters for the most part.  Certainly there is the occasional  Butler, George Mason, Wichita State, but for the most part it is the top of the food chain.   For the Elite 8, many a program like Xavier, Gonzaga, Providence, Davidson, Dayton, Temple, etc.  Of course this is driven by double the teams, but from a distribution perspective my guess (I don't know the answer) is that you will find it's a huge jump from one to the next....maybe not a mile or whatever term was used, but a very big step.

I took a look at the last 5 years. Here's a breakdown of the Final Four teams versus the ones who reached the Elite 8 and lost:

              Final 4s                           Elite 8s
 
           Kentucky(3)                     Florida(3)
           UConn  (2)                       N Carolina(2)
           Louisville(2)                     Arizona(2)
           BUTLER (2)                      BAYLOR(2)
           Duke                               Duke
           Kansas                            Kansas
           Florida                             Kentucky
           Syracuse                         Syracuse
           Michigan St                      Michigan St
           Ohio St                            Ohio St
           Michigan                          Michigan
           Wisconsin                        Marquette
           W VIRGINIA                     KANSAS ST
           WICHITA ST                     TENNESSEE
           VCU                                 DAYTON

Only 5 years, but I don't see any difference in the quality of the programs. In fact, the similarities and the duplications are remarkable.

Capitalized the teams outside of "basketball elites". Could have MU and UW in caps also.

[MUCam]

So I went back over the past 20 years of champions and considered the talent on those championship teams. And I can't logically connect those real national champions with the notion that Buzz created a "real belief" that we might compete for a national championship--at least not one that can claimed to be based on "rationality and past results"

As good as his recruiting was, Buzz wasn't bringing in enough elite-level talent to rationally conclude that he was building a championship calibre team. And he wasn't a good enough coach or developer of talent to rationally conclude that he'd overcome such a talent deficit to attain the national championship level.

2014: UConn
2013: Louisville
2012: Kentucky
2011: UConn
2010: Duke
2009: UNC
2008: Kansas
2007: Florida
2006: Florida
2005: UNC
2004: UConn
2003: Syracuse
2002: Maryland
2001: Duke
2000: MSU
1999: UConn
1998: Kentucky
1997: Arizona
1996: Kentucky
1995: UCLA

Okay, okay. My belief that we could maybe compete for a National Championship under Buzz was an emotional and irrational opinion. You and Golden Avalanche have proven me wrong with "my way out" there belief.

Great. Congrats.

You don't even need to provide me the wonderful objective, empirical evidence that led to these statements: "... I ... considered the talent on those championship teams. And I can't logically connect..." I am sure it wasn't just opinion, but hard evidence.

Man, I was crazy to think we were getting close to maybe competing for a National Championship under Buzz, whatever "maybe competing" means. I wish I could go back in time and be as rationally pessimistic as you two must have been.

[Newsdreams]

Back on topic. It has to be the dancing!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

In addition to the meme tournament, can we have a dumbest scoop arguments tournament?

I nominate this as a two seed

[Golden Avalanche]

Okay, okay. My belief that we could maybe compete for a National Championship under Buzz was an emotional and irrational opinion. You and Golden Avalanche have proven me wrong with "my way out" there belief.

Great. Congrats.

You don't even need to provide me the wonderful objective, empirical evidence that led to these statements: "... I ... considered the talent on those championship teams. And I can't logically connect..." I am sure it wasn't just opinion, but hard evidence.

Man, I was crazy to think we were getting close to maybe competing for a National Championship under Buzz, whatever "maybe competing" means. I wish I could go back in time and be as rationally pessimistic as you two must have been.

Oy vey. The victimhood position will end this.

You stated a belief. I asked about it. You answered it. I wrote that's cool and provided my belief. The end. Crazy to think a discussion board would be so turned off by discussion.

[MuMark]

As I write, a lot of "ifs" and "buts" and "maybes". It's obviously fair for your belief to be that way. Every fan believes their team will win. That's why we're fans. But there's also a sizable number of fans who subsidize the emotion with reason and rationality and recognize that thinking "if all goes right" is a long way from it all actually going right. That's why I asked if it was a legitimate belief. For you, it clearly was.

For me, not so much. My "ifs" and "buts" and "maybes" are hoping all would go right for a Final Four appearance, which I believe to be the peak for the Marquette program now and in the foreseeable future. Not once in my lifetime have I felt MU was a legitimate National Title contender nor "might actually compete" for a National Title.

You weren't alive in 2002?

Just because we got blown out by Kansas doesn't mean that team wasn't good enough to compete for a NC. They just picked the wrong time to have a terrible game.....If you are good enough to blow out the #1 team to get to the final 4 you are good enough to "compete" to win it all......

[jaygall31]

His quotes, real or not, there were some gems.

there sure were!

[2TimeWarrior]

I'm going to miss his uncontrollable sweat glands and the commentary that inevitably followed every time he was shown wiping his brow.