Who left the team in better shape, Crean or Williams?

[classof70]

I'm an infrequent poster, but Hunt's recent interview with Wojo made me ask the question:  Who left MU in better shape, Crean or Wojo?   I'm not a Crean or Williams hater.  They are like all of us, flawed characters.  However, I'd be interested in this groups take on who left the team in better shape, hopefully a reasoned and rational response.  Seems Crean left a better cupboard, though Williams was an assistant and involved in recruiting so that surely made a difference.  As I recall only one recruit left to follow Crean, but others on this board are surely more schooled in this than I.    Discuss.

[Skatastrophy]

We won't know definitively for 5 years.

[GGGG]

They kind of left opposite teams.

Crean left an experienced team with the Amigos and Lazar but very little depth.  So Buzz had experience in year one, but had a lot to do to build up talent in years two and beyond.  Buzz's most difficult year talent-wise was year two - and he did a great job with a team with attributes that he doesn't particularly seek out.

Williams on the other hand left a team that doesn't have a lot in the upper class, but has a lot of young talent that Wojo can mold.  His toughest year will be this year.  

So the answer is, both coaches left their successor something, but also left with a lot of work to do.

[T-Bone]

Crean.  He had a healthy, though eerie, tan glow.
Brent left the team as chubby as ever. 

[Nukem2]

They kind of left opposite teams.

Crean left an experienced team with the Amigos and Lazar but very little depth.  So Buzz had experience in year one, but had a lot to do to build up talent in years two and beyond.  Buzz's most difficult year talent-wise was year two - and he did a great job with a team with attributes that he doesn't particularly seek out.

Williams on the other hand left a team that doesn't have a lot in the upper class, but has a lot of young talent that Wojo can mold.  His toughest year will be this year.  

So the answer is, both coaches left their successor something, but also left with a lot of work to do.

That would be my take as well.

[dgies9156]

The Hillbilly did.

Yes, Crean left the Amigos, but as a previous poster said, Crean left us with seniors and a lot of near-term recruiting work to do and not a lot of time to do it in.

The Hillbilly's issue was short-term coaching problems. I think the Hillbilly left Coach Wojo the gift of time -- time to see what he has and build a program around Coach Wojo's vision.

I think next year's team, as I said before, may be a very pleasant surprise. We'll probably be short-handed, but the talent is there and if Coach Wojo is the coach we think he is, we'll do well!

[willie warrior]

Have to go with the tan one. The 3 Amigos left a good core for El Buzzo. Buzz left some talent also, but reports are that Taylor and JJJ were ready to bolt, but the Wojo hire saved them.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Depends if you look at this in totality

One guy inherited the Old Gym, Conference USA, a losing record and left us with the Big East, the Al McGuire Center, a recent Final Four to build on, and a loaded team.  As for recruiting, if he hadn't left the team would have had Taylor, Scott Christopherson, Maurice Creek (on record as saying he was coming), etc, etc.  Who knows about Mbakwe, all we know is he didn't play for Buzz but did for Crean.   People forget who was committed and who was likely coming behind them.  He left for a blueblood (which most basketball people don't take that as a slap), spoke very highly of Marquette, the conference, etc.


The other guy leveraged all that the other guy left for him and did a really nice job with it until his last year.  This guy crapped on the conference on his way out in multiple interviews, got the AD canned, had some wonderful runs in the NCAA tournament and also some black eyes for the university as well, and went to that blueblood program Virginia Tech (which begged a lot of questions about MU because of where he went).

[GoldenWarrior11]

Whenever a coach leaves a program, you are guaranteed to get some transfers from current players and/or decommits from current recruits.  Both coaches had players leave right when they left.  Crean had Tyshawn Taylor, Trevor Mbakwe, Scott Christopherson, Nick Williams and (allegedly) Mo Creek seek other opportunities, leaving Buzz to do some extra work to fill out the roster.  When Buzz left, we saw Ahmed Hill, Satchel Paige, Mayol Shayok and Todd Mayo all leave.

With that having been said, would you rather have a core of James/McNeal/Matthews/Hayward or Taylor/Burton/Johnson/Du. Wilson to build on?  One is experienced and has known talent.  The other has a lot of youth, but incredibly potential.

For me, give me the established and battle-tested group any day of the week.  However, come December, I have a pretty good understanding that I will be eating my words and favoring this young, hungry group entering this season.

[River rat]

Williams by far...

Look at the sophomore class and all the players Buzz was recruiting when he left and the players that Wojo is in on.  Why is it that MU has not signed a NON Top 100 kid in the last 2 years?, and likely will not this fall.  Real simple becuase of the brand and success that Buzz built. 

Crean may have built the Al, but he was still not recruitng all that well and had no post season sucess in his last 5 years , in fact most years were abysmal flame outs.  Buzz's post season sucess and pro pipeline now have Marquette being considered by many top recruits in the country.  Have we even offered a Non-top 100 kid?

Remember guys college basketball sucess in 99% recruiting.

[79Warrior]

Depends if you look at this in totality

One guy inherited the Old Gym, Conference USA, a losing record and left us with the Big East, the Al McGuire Center, a recent Final Four to build on, and a loaded team.  As for recruiting, if he hadn't left the team would have had Taylor, Scott Christopherson, Maurice Creek (on record as saying he was coming), etc, etc.  Who knows about Mbakwe, all we know is he didn't play for Buzz but did for Crean.   People forget who was committed and who was likely coming behind them.  He left for a blueblood (which most basketball people don't take that as a slap), spoke very highly of Marquette, the conference, etc.


The other guy leveraged all that the other guy left for him and did a really nice job with it until his last year.  This guy crapped on the conference on his way out in multiple interviews, got the AD canned, had some wonderful runs in the NCAA tournament and also some black eyes for the university as well, and went to that blueblood program Virginia Tech (which begged a lot of questions about MU because of where he went).

I agree with your Crean comments. As far as Williams, his leaving for VT is not a reflection on MU. The University had their fill of Williams and many people in the business saw it for what it was. It was time for Buzz to go and the University graciously let him go. He, on the other hand, bashed the joint to protect his image and defend his lame decision to go to VT. It does not take a rocket scientist to read those tea leaves.

[Galway Eagle]

Depends if you look at this in totality

One guy inherited the Old Gym, Conference USA, a losing record and left us with the Big East, the Al McGuire Center, a recent Final Four to build on, and a loaded team.  As for recruiting, if he hadn't left the team would have had Taylor, Scott Christopherson, Maurice Creek (on record as saying he was coming), etc, etc.  Who knows about Mbakwe, all we know is he didn't play for Buzz but did for Crean.   People forget who was committed and who was likely coming behind them.  He left for a blueblood (which most basketball people don't take that as a slap), spoke very highly of Marquette, the conference, etc.


The other guy leveraged all that the other guy left for him and did a really nice job with it until his last year.  This guy crapped on the conference on his way out in multiple interviews, got the AD canned, had some wonderful runs in the NCAA tournament and also some black eyes for the university as well, and went to that blueblood program Virginia Tech (which begged a lot of questions about MU because of where he went).

I think that's a little biased toward Crean.  Crean gave us those gifts 3-5yrs prior.  Specifically the final four to build off of? If he as the coach who got us there couldn't build off of it why was it a gift to us when he left? If anything I'd say Buzz's gift of actual recent tourney runs (despite big being final fours) is a better gift than a 5year old final four

[TheBurrEffect]

I think that's a little biased toward Crean.  Crean gave us those gifts 3-5yrs prior.  Specifically the final four to build off of? If he as the coach who got us there couldn't build off of it why was it a gift to us when he left? If anything I'd say Buzz's gift of actual recent tourney runs (despite big being final fours) is a better gift than a 5year old final four

Simply put though, crean inherited a program with an awful gym, a mediocre conference, little to none national recognition and came out with the bradley center, the big east, and national recognition. Buzz built off that, but did not climb as far up the ladder as Crean did.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with your Crean comments. As far as Williams, his leaving for VT is not a reflection on MU. The University had their fill of Williams and many people in the business saw it for what it was. It was time for Buzz to go and the University graciously let him go. He, on the other hand, bashed the joint to protect his image and defend his lame decision to go to VT. It does not take a rocket scientist to read those tea leaves.

For you and I, yes, but public perception doesn't always follow suit.  All you have to do is read some of Buzz's "journalist" friends and how they spin his departure and plenty of people will buy into a different story.  Rocket scientist or not, there are plenty of people that see he left to go to a dud and is getting paid a crap load of money to do so.  Some people will will buy into the conference thing, or MU has some issue, etc.  Just the way it is, but should not be ignored as a reality that exists for some.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

For you and I, yes, but public perception doesn't always follow suit.  All you have to do is read some of Buzz's "journalist" friends and how they spin his departure and plenty of people will buy into a different story.  Rocket scientist or not, there are plenty of people that see he left to go to a dud and is getting paid a crap load of money to do so.  Some people will will buy into the conference thing, or MU has some issue, etc.  Just the way it is, but should not be ignored as a reality that exists for some.

Which journalist spun it as MU was weak or had issues?  I seem to remember Goodman after Buzz's departure saying that MU was the best job open.  There was some chatter about the President & AD openings - which was valid for a school looking to fill a coaching vacancy with a high profile hire.

All in all though I thought MU came away looking ok -- as demonstrated by the narrative "Buzz, Why Would You Leave For VT?" instead of something like "Why Marquette Can't Keep A Coach"

[tower912]

For the next season, Crean.   For two seasons post-departure, Buzz.  

[River rat]

For you and I, yes, but public perception doesn't always follow suit.  All you have to do is read some of Buzz's "journalist" friends and how they spin his departure and plenty of people will buy into a different story.  Rocket scientist or not, there are plenty of people that see he left to go to a dud and is getting paid a crap load of money to do so.  Some people will will buy into the conference thing, or MU has some issue, etc.  Just the way it is, but should not be ignored as a reality that exists for some.

and most others will agree your reality is far different than what actually exists!

[Galway Eagle]

Simply put though, crean inherited a program with an awful gym, a mediocre conference, little to none national recognition and came out with the bradley center, the big east, and national recognition. Buzz built off that, but did not climb as far up the ladder as Crean did.

Awful gym? Yes.  Mediocre conference? No, Louisville, Memphis Cincinnati, DePaul was occasionally good back then, and us.  I'll give you less national recognition but all the same we were coming off a decade of 4ncaa appearances, 1 sweet 16, 3Nit appearances one of which we made the finals.  We were known, not as well but still known.  Bradley center? I thought we already were playing there.  The big east I'll give you.  National recognition? I mean yes we became known as a consistent power but think about it 5ncaa appearances, 3nits, 1 final four 5yrs before leaving vs 5ncaa appearances, 2sweet16s, 1elite8 one year before leaving.  I don't know man I personally think that people now know is because of what buzz built plus the final four not so much the other things Crean did. 

[Lennys Tap]

If you look at programs/coaches in 5 year increments (the consensus around here), Buzz inherited a PROGRAM that had made the tournament 3 times out of 5 and had won one (1) NCAA tournament game over that span - ironically the lone victory was the one where he scouted our opponent and was in charge of game prep. Wojo inherits a PROGRAM that's made the tourney 4 times in the past 5 years, won seven (7) NCAA tournament games and has played on the second weekend three times (something that happened once in the previous 30 years). So, as a program, Wojo inherits one with a much more successful recent past.

As to who inherited the better TEAM, Buzz did for year one, Wojo does for year two and beyond.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think that's a little biased toward Crean.  Crean gave us those gifts 3-5yrs prior.  Specifically the final four to build off of? If he as the coach who got us there couldn't build off of it why was it a gift to us when he left? If anything I'd say Buzz's gift of actual recent tourney runs (despite big being final fours) is a better gift than a 5year old final four

Who's to say it wasn't being built on?  Let's face it, we've been to three Final Fours in our history.  The fact we didn't have one in 25+ years was telling.  Would Buzz's recent tourney runs happen without the Final Four?  I sincerely doubt it, because more than likely Buzz wouldn't even be at MU nor would we have the types of players capable of hitting it.  Furthermore, that first year team of Buzz's was capable of reaching the Final Four, but injuries hurt and the crapshoot is the crapshoot.  Just because we didn't get there again, doesn't mean it wasn't a pretty decent possibility of occurring, especially before the season started.  That team was loaded, and that talent came from the fact we were a Final Four team.  People keep talking about how you should get all this talent immediately after a Final Four run, sometimes it takes a few extra years, especially when every other coach in the country is telling recruits your coach isn't coming back and will use the school as a stepping stone.  DJ, Wes, Jerel aren't coming to MU without that Final Four.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If you look at programs/coaches in 5 year increments (the consensus around here), Buzz inherited a PROGRAM that had made the tournament 3 times out of 5 and had won one (1) NCAA tournament game over that span - ironically the lone victory was the one where he scouted our opponent and was in charge of game prep. Wojo inherits a PROGRAM that's made the tourney 4 times in the past 5 years, won seven (7) NCAA tournament games and has played on the second weekend three times (something that happened once in the previous 30 years). So, as a program, Wojo inherits one with a much more successful recent past.

As to who inherited the better TEAM, Buzz did for year one, Wojo does for year two and beyond.

No, five years to determine a coach, not five year increments, but I'm not surprised you used that cut off.

So TC inheriting a program with two NCAAs in the previous five years (your marker), the Old Gym, CUSA, a losing record, no NBA kids on the roster would be someone really inheriting a disaster.  Right?

I love how you pigeonhole the previous success to how far they went in the tournament, as if one game makes a difference.

Yes, Buzz inherited teams that went as you described.  Of course they also were on three straight NCAA appearances, all three in the top 5 Big East... in the real Big East...not the watered down version.  For some reason you want to erase 25 or 24 wins in those years, erase what's done over 4 to 5 months, and decide that it's solely on the performance of one game in the NCAA tournament that magically defines how good a team is.  Using that criteria, Wojo might be a really bad hire since in 2 of the last 3 years Duke failed to win a NCAA tournament game....

[ChicosBailBonds]

and most others will agree your reality is far different than what actually exists!

Robbie River Rat, if I'm on the opposite side of you than I feel just fine. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Which journalist spun it as MU was weak or had issues?  I seem to remember Goodman after Buzz's departure saying that MU was the best job open.  There was some chatter about the President & AD openings - which was valid for a school looking to fill a coaching vacancy with a high profile hire.

All in all though I thought MU came away looking ok -- as demonstrated by the narrative "Buzz, Why Would You Leave For VT?" instead of something like "Why Marquette Can't Keep A Coach"

Here are some of the takeaways from the various mouthpieces...these tidbits are going to be bought by some people because perception can be reality.  Some may be 100% correct, some may not.  Regardless, many will believe them and they don't paint MU in the best light and these words didn't come out of these journalists mouths, they came to their ears from Buzz and to their keyboards.



"According to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiated deal, Williams took a pay cut to come to Virginia Tech and the ACC."

"Buzz Williams was gone. Marquette’s head coach was frustrated with the new league and changes in administration. He wanted a change of scenery.  The old Big East was all-powerful. It had guys like Jim Boeheim and Rick Pitino and virtually unlimited exposure that allowed Williams to win recruiting wars against fellow high-major programs. "

"Buzz Williams left Marquette for a variety of reasons, sources told ESPN. One of the biggest was new league/new TV package."

Etc, etc

[GooooMarquette]

TC left us an apple.
Bert left us an orange.

Both better than Dukiet's parting gift - a rotten egg.

[Dawson Rental]

Williams by far...

Look at the sophomore class and all the players Buzz was recruiting when he left and the players that Wojo is in on.  Why is it that MU has not signed a NON Top 100 kid in the last 2 years?, and likely will not this fall.  Real simple becuase of the brand and success that Buzz built.  

Crean may have built the Al, but he was still not recruitng all that well and had no post season sucess in his last 5 years , in fact most years were abysmal flame outs.  Buzz's post season sucess and pro pipeline now have Marquette being considered by many top recruits in the country.  Have we even offered a Non-top 100 kid?

Remember guys college basketball sucess in 99% recruiting.

Yes, Matt Heldt.  Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to have Matt, but he's got some rising to do to be a top 100 guy.  Another reason why rankings should be taken with a grain of salt.

Side Bet
Who gets credit for leaving Luke Fischer for Wojo, Buzz or Crean?