Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?

[🏀]

Incidentally, I've been told that from an engineering standpoint, it's easier to build something close to the lake than it is on the west side of the river.

Google "pile rot" and "Milwaukee"

Sand.

Seriously though, it can be built anywhere. Just costs more, which in the grand scheme isn't an issue.

[Coleman]

I like the idea.  Great location, and puts the mall out of everyone's misery.  Shame, though - it was a pretty nice mall when they opened it up 30+ years ago.

It actually wasn't even a bad mall 8-10 years ago when I was a student. It was probably still 90% occupied, with some decent stores, a little food court, etc. Not bad for a walk from campus. Agree that the arcade is beautiful. I would like to see the mall saved in some form, even if it means changing the character of the mall (adding residential space for example)

What about the massive gravel pit next to the Bradley Center? What are they going to do with that?

[4everwarriors]

Man, was that that Art House on 3rd? I remember we had a floor field trip there from McCormick. Couple guys did actually hit the concession stand and bought popcorn. I hope they didn't ask for butter...

That was it. Sure don't build theaters like that no more, hey?

[muwarrior69]

Would be great to tear down that mall. In fact, I like the idea of tearing down anything in MKE that is an eyesore.

Eyesores? When I attended MU in the 60s the entire campus was an eyesore. In fact I43 did not even exist; they started digging that in the spring of 66. Across Schrader on the east side of 13th was a row of Victorian Homes; by the fall of 66 they were all gone. If my memory serves me right I believe there was a Walgreens ( or another drugstore) where the AL is now; and across Wells from the AL was a laundromat. On the corner of 13th and West Wisconsin was a small grill.  On the north side of Wells going west just about every house or business was being torn down save the Avalanche. My Sophomore year all the houses between 14th and 15th street which now no longer exist were being torn down as well to make room for the Joan of Arc Chapel and the Weir Chemistry Building. In the fall of 66 they broke ground for McCormick tearing down the old Knights of Columbus Building. The entire campus looked like a war zone with all the demolition and new construction. They had a model of what the University was to look like by the end of the 70s in the Brooks Memorial Union. To those of us attending then in just looked like a dream. Back then the downtown area was still a center of commercial activity. As a member of the MU Chorus we sang Christmas carols in the Boston Store Restaurant on Friday and Saturday evenings during the holidays. The place was packed with shoppers. I always enjoyed walking to the lakefront in early fall and late spring; classes did not end until the first week of June back then.

[chapman]

Incidentally, I've been told that from an engineering standpoint, it's easier to build something close to the lake than it is on the west side of the river.

Google "pile rot" and "Milwaukee"

First result is this story/video, less than a week old.  Interesting:  http://fox6now.com/2014/07/23/the-sinking-city-dozens-of-buildings-in-milwaukee-sinking-theres-a-problem-and-its-deep-underground/

[Spotcheck Billy]

First result is this story/video, less than a week old.  Interesting:  http://fox6now.com/2014/07/23/the-sinking-city-dozens-of-buildings-in-milwaukee-sinking-theres-a-problem-and-its-deep-underground/

so not really a problem for new construction

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

FWIW, I have a friend who works in the soil sciences, and he said that building at the park east location is WAAAAAAY more work than anybody wants to admit (soil structure, contamination, etc.).

It's going to be a significant cost. Maybe not cost prohibitive for a 500million dollar stadium, but most likely the city is going to have to pay for the site prep, and it ain't going to be cheap or fast.

I guess we'll see what happens.

[Ari Gold]

In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

ideally yes, but the Moderne is new, the Pabst is new, the Couture is moving forward, there is a new Mandel (I think) complex being built by the Pick and Save on Van Buren and there is consideration for a new 30 story complex on Kil and Van Buren (http://www.jsonline.com/business/downtown-high-rise-apartment-development-eyed-b99317679z1-268505962.html). Even the article questions market saturation. (aside, Kashian sounded like a horses ass on 620 when he was on). if any of these places hit a snag, waiting for the mall to bottom out might happen before the market develops a need for new residential.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

ideally yes, but the Moderne is new, the Pabst is new, the Couture is moving forward, there is a new Mandel (I think) complex being built by the Pick and Save on Van Buren and there is consideration for a new 30 story complex on Kil and Van Buren (http://www.jsonline.com/business/downtown-high-rise-apartment-development-eyed-b99317679z1-268505962.html). Even the article questions market saturation. (aside, Kashian sounded like a horses ass on 620 when he was on). if any of these places hit a snag, waiting for the mall to bottom out might happen before the market develops a need for new residential.

I feel like Milwaukee reached the condo saturation point 5 years ago, but there continues to be new developments put up... so maybe I don't know anything. 

I don't know if market saturation would necessarily impact a Grand Ave. residential development simply because of it's uniqueness. It just offers something that no other building in the area can offer.*

*This assumes that they are able to get decent retail and office space rented out in the building as well.

[GooooMarquette]

Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.

I'd love it if someone has a plan like that - and financing to do it - for Grand Ave.  If something like that is in the works, great!

But I would not forego a plan to put an arena there (assuming it's approved and that's the site that's chosen) based solely on the possibility that someone might someday come along with a good idea that might work, and then they might someday find someone who can cover the cost.  Way too many "maybes" to pass up other opportunities.

[mu03eng]

I feel like Milwaukee reached the condo saturation point 5 years ago, but there continues to be new developments put up... so maybe I don't know anything. 

I don't know if market saturation would necessarily impact a Grand Ave. residential development simply because of it's uniqueness. It just offers something that no other building in the area can offer.*

*This assumes that they are able to get decent retail and office space rented out in the building as well.

I think the condo market is completely saturated but I do think there are still plenty of opportunities for mid to high level apartments.  A lot of millennials are starting to get some funds to get a nice place but none of them want to own a place.  Same with the baby boomers retiring.  They want to live downtown/eastside but they don't want to deal with a condo.

Again this is where it would be great if there was some sort of government group that was actually focused on the total picture...unfortunately they are not.

[Ari Gold]

I feel like Milwaukee reached the condo saturation point 5 years ago, but there continues to be new developments put up... so maybe I don't know anything. 

I don't know if market saturation would necessarily impact a Grand Ave. residential development simply because of it's uniqueness. It just offers something that no other building in the area can offer.*

*This assumes that they are able to get decent retail and office space rented out in the building as well.

I dont know if its a statistical fact or just a presumption that a large portion of the demand for condos and apartments in Milwaukee is from former suburbanites and now empty-nesters that are moving back into the city. they've got retirement money and don't want to deal with the upkeep of a large home and yard. If that is in fact the case, the market may hold out for awhile

--
Revisiting the idea of a Grand Ave arena (While I am still in favor of a Convention center + Arena combo on the location of the Current Wis center and former Cell) building it on that location but keeping the plankington arcade for retail and service plus sports corporate and a quasi-field house would be neat, and the city will have the opportunity to extend the skywalk from the (yet to be built) couture building all the way through Grad Ave and the convention center.
Also you put the Arena on that part of Wisconsin ave, you'd have your catalyst project for reviving Wisconsin ave all the way to the river.  And hell a grand ave arena might make a street car to the 3rd ward + Pabst + North Ave viable.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the condo market is completely saturated but I do think there are still plenty of opportunities for mid to high level apartments.  A lot of millennials are starting to get some funds to get a nice place but none of them want to own a place.  Same with the baby boomers retiring.  They want to live downtown/eastside but they don't want to deal with a condo.

Again this is where it would be great if there was some sort of government group that was actually focused on the total picture...unfortunately they are not.

Well, not to sound all Libertarian, but if there is a market for it, for-profit companies will figure it out, right? I have a feeling the government would unnatural carnal knowledge this stuff up.

Now, with this said, if there was a government funded think-tank that projected city planning out 20, 50, 100 years, then yes, I wish they would spend more time and money with that. I think long term vision is lacking in today's politicians. They just want to make it through the next election cycle. I'd like to see some more long term planning.

[MU111]

Now, with this said, if there was a government funded think-tank that projected city planning out 20, 50, 100 years, then yes, I wish they would spend more time and money with that. I think long term vision is lacking in today's politicians. They just want to make it through the next election cycle. I'd like to see some more long term planning.

As an urban planner, I agree with this.

[🏀]

As an urban planner, I agree with this.

Ken Yunker for the win.

[Ari Gold]

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2014/07/30/cargill-closing-milwaukee-slaughterhouse-cutting.html?ana=twt

Obvious downside is losing 600 jobs, but  the plan to move the arena to the valley might actually be on the table: http://urbanmilwaukee.com/2014/07/11/op-ed-build-nba-arena-next-to-potawatomi-casino/
Zepnick's plan isn't that bad. I do love me some TIFs however... and he calls it the NCAA playoffs

[mu03eng]

Well, not to sound all Libertarian, but if there is a market for it, for-profit companies will figure it out, right? I have a feeling the government would unnatural carnal knowledge this stuff up.

Now, with this said, if there was a government funded think-tank that projected city planning out 20, 50, 100 years, then yes, I wish they would spend more time and money with that. I think long term vision is lacking in today's politicians. They just want to make it through the next election cycle. I'd like to see some more long term planning.

I'm with you on your first paragraph, but ideal the zoning and city planning commissions are suppose to handle this sort of thing.  The for-profit companies can proposal all they want, but unless they have permits projects won't go anywhere.  So techincally I misstated as there is nominally a government agency that controls this stuff, but they are already unnatural carnal knowledged it all up already.

[GOO]

I dont know if its a statistical fact or just a presumption that a large portion of the demand for condos and apartments in Milwaukee is from former suburbanites and now empty-nesters that are moving back into the city. they've got retirement money and don't want to deal with the upkeep of a large home and yard. If that is in fact the case, the market may hold out for awhile

--
Revisiting the idea of a Grand Ave arena (While I am still in favor of a Convention center + Arena combo on the location of the Current Wis center and former Cell) building it on that location but keeping the plankington arcade for retail and service plus sports corporate and a quasi-field house would be neat, and the city will have the opportunity to extend the skywalk from the (yet to be built) couture building all the way through Grad Ave and the convention center.
Also you put the Arena on that part of Wisconsin ave, you'd have your catalyst project for reviving Wisconsin ave all the way to the river.  And hell a grand ave arena might make a street car to the 3rd ward + Pabst + North Ave viable.

I am not a fan of the Valley location.  To hard to get in and out of, and it isolates it as far as walking to and from the arena... it would be all drive and park... Geographically close to MU, but a long, long way away to walk to it.. who wants to walk a viaduct and steps up and down, especially if your older. 

The Valley location may happen, as I'd guess the casino would kick in some money to get it built there... maybe in exchange for having the politicians kill the possible Kenosha casino. It would benefit the casino, which is really not good for other Milwaukee businesses, of course.

I actually like the Grand Ave location.  Plankington Building stays. It would take up the empty parking lot east of the Hilton, which means it is directly across from the convention center (location would be the parking lot and part of the west part of the Grand Ave Mall - Boston Store and Boston Store apartments).  So a skywalk to the convention center is a no brainer then.  This location will give the best benefit and best opportunity for use of the arena by the convention center when games are not going on.

The bars and restaurants will come.  The Bucks owners will probably get a piece of land around it to develop. That is one way to help "finance" this thing.  Let them develop some land around it.

Plus, the big advantage of the Grand Ave location - it puts it very close to MU.  Straight line down Wisconsin Ave. A very easy walk down Wisconsin Ave for students and Alumni.  Really would lead to a lot of money being spent at locations on/near MU's campus pre and post game.  A couple of buses continuously running up and down Wisconsin Ave from the arena to 16th Street pre and post game.  Could generate some serious business for MU and MU bars/restaurants.  A few more would be opening, I'd think. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I am not a fan of the Valley location.  To hard to get in and out of, and it isolates it as far as walking to and from the arena... it would be all drive and park... Geographically close to MU, but a long, long way away to walk to it.. who wants to walk a viaduct and steps up and down, especially if your older. 

The Valley location may happen, as I'd guess the casino would kick in some money to get it built there... maybe in exchange for having the politicians kill the possible Kenosha casino. It would benefit the casino, which is really not good for other Milwaukee businesses, of course.

I actually like the Grand Ave location.  Plankington Building stays. It would take up the empty parking lot east of the Hilton, which means it is directly across from the convention center (location would be the parking lot and part of the west part of the Grand Ave Mall - Boston Store and Boston Store apartments).  So a skywalk to the convention center is a no brainer then.  This location will give the best benefit and best opportunity for use of the arena by the convention center when games are not going on.

The bars and restaurants will come.  The Bucks owners will probably get a piece of land around it to develop. That is one way to help "finance" this thing.  Let them develop some land around it.

Plus, the big advantage of the Grand Ave location - it puts it very close to MU.  Straight line down Wisconsin Ave. A very easy walk down Wisconsin Ave for students and Alumni.  Really would lead to a lot of money being spent at locations on/near MU's campus pre and post game.  A couple of buses continuously running up and down Wisconsin Ave from the arena to 16th Street pre and post game.  Could generate some serious business for MU and MU bars/restaurants.  A few more would be opening, I'd think. 

You're not wrong, but I think it's just rearranging the deck chairs, and that's part of the problem.

You spend $500million and get all of this new "growth", but then the BC neighborhood gets gutted and essentially makes the city a doughnut with nothing in the middle (west of the river, east of the courthouse would be empty. I mean, literally, there wouldn't be any people down there ever.).

Now, if they can come up with a larger city plan, then I guess it could work.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm with you on your first paragraph, but ideal the zoning and city planning commissions are suppose to handle this sort of thing.  The for-profit companies can proposal all they want, but unless they have permits projects won't go anywhere.  So techincally I misstated as there is nominally a government agency that controls this stuff, but they are already unnatural carnal knowledged it all up already.

Agree 100%.

I don't really want politicians giving away $, but they should be promoting/giving away opportunities for business' to come in and make money.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Haven't been to grand ave since the hooters closed.

[MU111]

I just stumbled upon this: http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2014/07/30/bucks-owners-lasry-edens-raising-84-5m-from.html

I realize all of that $85 million from new investors won't go toward the arena, but if it did, we'd be up to $300 million at this point.  I'll be curious to see how much private financing we'll end up with.

[Benny B]

I think the condo market is completely saturated but I do think there are still plenty of opportunities for mid to high level apartments.  A lot of millennials are starting to get some funds to get a nice place but none of them want to own a place.  Same with the baby boomers retiring.  They want to live downtown/eastside but they don't want to deal with a condo.

Again this is where it would be great if there was some sort of government group that was actually focused on the total picture...unfortunately they are not.

Don't worry... the private sector is working on it.  I'm quite optimistic that the first of several projects on this front will be announced in the next 30-60 days.

[keefe]

That was it. Sure don't build theaters like that no more, hey?

That place was straight out of Taxi Driver. If you think about the Darwinian Food Chain the Princess was done in by VCRs which were in turn killed off by the Internet. I blame Al Gore, quite frankly.