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Author Topic: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?  (Read 17197 times)

Ari Gold

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2014, 11:45:52 AM »
I'm with Ammo here. The Plankington Arcade section of the mall is an amazing structure that is woefully under-appreciated -hardly an eyesore.



I'm still a supporter of a combined new arena and WCD convention facility -which needs an addition if it wants to attract major events. there's some space that can be used that is currently a parking lot between the -former- Midwest Express center and the -former- Cell
though relocating the JS building for an arena... theres an idea

GGGG

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2014, 11:54:22 AM »
The suggestion in the Biz Journal was that the Plankinton Building would be saved.  That it would be located basically between 2nd and 5th.

keefe

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2014, 12:34:11 PM »


Sure that wasn't the Princess?

Man, was that that Art House on 3rd? I remember we had a floor field trip there from McCormick. Couple guys did actually hit the concession stand and bought popcorn. I hope they didn't ask for butter...


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mu03eng

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 12:38:37 PM »
I still think the better route is in combination with the convention center like I think Ammo said.  Accomplishes multiple things in a positive manner.  Using Grand Ave eliminates potentially a negative but only gives a positive while creating a negative else where(what to do with the stadium "district")

Grand Ave needs to become something else and if only city leadership could get craniumanalectomies and start working with developers in a serious way I think it could become something else.  As a sole retail space its done, thats for sure.
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chapman

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2014, 01:31:38 PM »
The suggestion in the Biz Journal was that the Plankinton Building would be saved. 

Important for the arena to not be blocked by Maxxinistas of the downtown Milwaukee area.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2014, 01:42:03 PM »
Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.


Exactly this.  Locally, New Haven has lead the way (other large Conn. cities have since followed) by converting a former mall (like the Grand Ave.), former downtown factories and historic buildings to apartments on the upper floors with ground level shops & restaurants.  There's been a number of studies that what makes a city most "livable" is this type of housing/retail arrangement.  And every single project, the apartments were sold out before the conversion was even finished.  New Haven is in-process of something else now also and they admit to copying the idea from Milwaukee of ripping out a portion of a highway and reinstating city streets and blocks instead.  The new home of Alexion Pharmaceuticals is rising in the middle of where Rt-34 once ran.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2014, 01:53:00 PM »
Exactly this.  Locally, New Haven has lead the way (other large Conn. cities have since followed) by converting a former mall (like the Grand Ave.), former downtown factories and historic buildings to apartments on the upper floors with ground level shops & restaurants.  There's been a number of studies that what makes a city most "livable" is this type of housing/retail arrangement.  And every single project, the apartments were sold out before the conversion was even finished.  New Haven is in-process of something else now also and they admit to copying the idea from Milwaukee of ripping out a portion of a highway and reinstating city streets and blocks instead.  The new home of Alexion Pharmaceuticals is rising in the middle of where Rt-34 once ran.

Ya, and Grand Ave won't be easy because there is a lot of crap tied to it right now (acquired debt, existing leases, infrastructure, etc.). Might be another handful of years before they really bottom out and you can get somebody to buy it cheap enough to make the project like this work.

But, the beautiful thing about the mall really bottoming out is that it creates opportunity to do something else with the space.

You could offer favorable leases and office sharing for small business/consultants. Rent meeting space out for the same type of clientele. That would at least get things started and help fill some of the spaces (they are already doing some of this).

For retail, it's going to be tough, but somebody with a larger vision has to come in and figure out how to sell the retail spaces to a mix of national and mostly local retailers. Think Milwaukee Public Market on steroids (maybe food, local products, antiques, some chain retail, etc.) It's a tough sell because the clientele isn't there yet... but if you do it right, they will be.

Condos, well, Milwaukee has a ton of them, but living in the upper level of grand ave would be far more unique than just living in another cookie cutter "modern loft".

Also, MU business school should get involved if possible. Maybe even have some grad classes down there, or an incubation program & space for recent grads?

MUfan12

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2014, 02:02:38 PM »
In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

Chicago_inferiority_complexes

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2014, 02:07:53 PM »
Honestly, I think it's a terrible idea.

I know people love to hate Grand Ave, and it's pretty easy to do.

However, now that the mall has officially bottomed out, I think there are a lot of cool uses for that space (and some are already happening).

Business incubation, possible housing, entertainment, shopping, food, etc.

The traditional "urban mall" is dead, but I think there is still a big opportunity for that building if they can evolve it. Put condos up top, businesses down low, and mixed retail/bars/grocery in the middle. It's not unlike what they are doing at the Pabst Brewery (mixed housing/retail/business).

It's a long term vision, but I think it's a better investment than just knocking it down for another arena, which would basically gut the current arena neighborhood.

Grand Ave has potential, but it's going to be some time before they figure out how it's all going to work.


It sounds like you are suggesting ... Grand Ave ... as a solution to Grand Ave.  ;)

Chicago_inferiority_complexes

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2014, 02:15:10 PM »
In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

+1 Anything west of the river (plus about one block) has a stench to it.

GGGG

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2014, 02:21:35 PM »
Isn't the "westown" area undergoing a bit of a revival?

MUfan12

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2014, 02:32:36 PM »
Isn't the "westown" area undergoing a bit of a revival?

If it is, it's a small one. I don't live far from there, and I don't see much changing.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2014, 03:04:05 PM »
In an ideal world, I'd love a nice mix of retail/residential in that area. The problem right now is erasing the stigma of that area to get people to live there. That process will take far longer than developing the mall area once it bottoms out.

Correct.

Changing the persona of the mall will be tough. It will take somebody with some vision to really drive that process.

I actually know some of the people renting space and working there now, and they really like it (rent is cheap, and it's a cool old building).

They probably have to start at a grassroots level and get some younger people in there and working, and then building up from there.

tower912

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2014, 03:06:54 PM »
I really like the mixed use concept for that space.   As the picture from ari shows, there is still some really classy architecture in there.   It's time as a mall is past.   There is nothing wrong with the idea of condo's, offices, specialty retail.   It would probably require less work than some other ideas.   
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2014, 03:25:17 PM »
It sounds like you are suggesting ... Grand Ave ... as a solution to Grand Ave.  ;)

In a way, yes.

An urban mall isn't a bad idea in this climate... but an urban mall can't be what it used to be.

You can't depend upon commuters coming from brookfield to go shopping there. It's ain't gonna happen.

BUT

If you CAN come up with a space that mixes living, working, eating, shopping etc. all under one roof, that's pretty attractive because it will be busy all of the time (great for retailers), and it's super convenient for tenants and employees.

Plus, if you can put unique retail in that space, then you can attract some people from other parts of town. I wouldn't go to grand ave to go to Old Navy, but I might go to Grand Ave if they had a specialty (insert cool thing) store, or maybe they have retailer hours until midnight, so people could shop after dinner (other major cities have such retail districts).

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2014, 03:25:21 PM »
Correct.

Changing the persona of the mall will be tough. It will take somebody with some vision to really drive that process.

I actually know some of the people renting space and working there now, and they really like it (rent is cheap, and it's a cool old building).

They probably have to start at a grassroots level and get some younger people in there and working, and then building up from there.

I don't know that Milwaukee can ever accomplish these things. I think it will take an outside group to do so.

That's what is so great about the sale of the Bucks. Here we have guys who want to invest about a half billion dollars in downtown infrastructure and people still complain that they aren't doing enough.

But people living in Milwaukee are so locked into a certain mindset - whether it is over the Mall or a new arena - that they are unable to see the big picture and the growth that is possible with change.

mu03eng

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2014, 03:28:40 PM »
I don't know that Milwaukee can ever accomplish these things. I think it will take an outside group to do so.

That's what is so great about the sale of the Bucks. Here we have guys who want to invest about a half billion dollars in downtown infrastructure and people still complain that they aren't doing enough.

But people living in Milwaukee are so locked into a certain mindset - whether it is over the Mall or a new arena - that they are unable to see the big picture and the growth that is possible with change.

Is it the people or the local governments?  I mean that seriously.  Everyone I've talked to...and I talk to a lot of people, is pro-new arena(with financing caveats of various types) and see's the possibility of whats could happen.  The probably is the leadership in Milwaukee has no vision and no ability to speak to anything other than stale talking points.  They never think outside of the box or try to float things out there and get people behind it.
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2014, 03:47:04 PM »
I don't know that Milwaukee can ever accomplish these things. I think it will take an outside group to do so.

That's what is so great about the sale of the Bucks. Here we have guys who want to invest about a half billion dollars in downtown infrastructure and people still complain that they aren't doing enough.

But people living in Milwaukee are so locked into a certain mindset - whether it is over the Mall or a new arena - that they are unable to see the big picture and the growth that is possible with change.

I don't know if I agree.

Look at the Menominee valley. or Bayshore, or 3rd ward, or brady st, or walker's point, or brewers hill, Harley Museum etc.

There are a lot of areas that have been changed/improved over the years. Pabst brewery is going through it right now.

But, there are still the basic laws of cost, supply and demand. There has been increased demand for hotel rooms, so you're seeing more hotels. There was a demand for higher end retail, so you saw bayshore get completely renovated. There is a demand for new restaurants, so walker's point is growing and improving with each new place that opens (rent is cheaper in Walker's Point).

You get the picture. Milwaukee isn't experiencing a huge Renaissance, but I think it's going through the normal ebbs and flows of a aging American city. There isn't the automatic demand that there is in Chicago, so sometimes projects take some time. The Pabst is prime Real Estate and sat empty for years. That would never happen in Chicago, but it does happen here. There has to be demand before private dollars are going to come invest. 

Personally, I'm okay with the city/state investing in infrastructure that will help the city. However, critically, I'm skeptical that 500million in a NBA arena really accomplishes what people think it does.

brandx

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2014, 03:47:23 PM »
Is it the people or the local governments?  I mean that seriously.  Everyone I've talked to...and I talk to a lot of people, is pro-new arena(with financing caveats of various types) and see's the possibility of whats could happen.  The probably is the leadership in Milwaukee has no vision and no ability to speak to anything other than stale talking points.  They never think outside of the box or try to float things out there and get people behind it.

Yeah, absolutely - the gov't is the #1 problem.

As far as people - it is more those outside of the city limits that don't want to spend a dime of tax money to improve the city - no matter the ROI.

brandx

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2014, 03:51:32 PM »
I don't know if I agree.

Look at the Menominee valley. or Bayshore, or 3rd ward, or brady st, or walker's point, or brewers hill, Harley Museum etc.

There are a lot of areas that have been changed/improved over the years. Pabst brewery is going through it right now.

But, there are still the basic laws of cost, supply and demand. There has been increased demand for hotel rooms, so you're seeing more hotels. There was a demand for higher end retail, so you saw bayshore get completely renovated. There is a demand for new restaurants, so walker's point is growing and improving with each new place that opens (rent is cheaper in Walker's Point).

You get the picture. Milwaukee isn't experiencing a huge Renaissance, but I think it's going through the normal ebbs and flows of a aging American city. There isn't the automatic demand that there is in Chicago, so sometimes projects take some time. The Pabst is prime Real Estate and sat empty for years. That would never happen in Chicago, but it does happen here. There has to be demand before private dollars are going to come invest. 

Personally, I'm okay with the city/state investing in infrastructure that will help the city. However, critically, I'm skeptical that 500million in a NBA arena really accomplishes what people think it does.

I don't live in Milwaukee, so I don't know. But I wonder how much of the money and drive is coming from the city itself and how much comes from outside investors who see opportunities.

There is a major investment about to take place in downtown Racine, but it is driven by outside investors. Don't know if it is that way with the improvements that you mentioned in Milwaukee.

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2014, 03:53:32 PM »
Nice place for an arena.

But is the ground stable enough?

Near a train station...near a conflux of highways...

could revitalize downtown life and the riverway...

Love the Plankington dome. Hope they could keep it.

They need to demolish some of the buildings and retrofit to swankier downtown living...
SS Marquette

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2014, 04:01:49 PM »

There is a major investment about to take place in downtown Racine, but it is driven by outside investors. Don't know if it is that way with the improvements that you mentioned in Milwaukee.

The major Racine development has to be the worst idea I've ever seen. This will not end up good.

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2014, 04:02:31 PM »

But is the ground stable enough?


We can make anything hard.

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Benny B

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2014, 04:05:29 PM »
Nice place for an arena.

But is the ground stable enough?

Near a train station...near a conflux of highways...

could revitalize downtown life and the riverway...

Love the Plankington dome. Hope they could keep it.

They need to demolish some of the buildings and retrofit to swankier downtown living...


Incidentally, I've been told that from an engineering standpoint, it's easier to build something close to the lake than it is on the west side of the river.

Google "pile rot" and "Milwaukee"
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Grand Avenue- New Arena Site?
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2014, 04:06:11 PM »
I don't live in Milwaukee, so I don't know. But I wonder how much of the money and drive is coming from the city itself and how much comes from outside investors who see opportunities.

There is a major investment about to take place in downtown Racine, but it is driven by outside investors. Don't know if it is that way with the improvements that you mentioned in Milwaukee.

The neighborhoods/items I'm referring to are mostly private dollars. I'm sure the city has some tax friendly deals for these developments as well, but it's not as friendly as something like the Bucks are proposing, or a straight up tax payer funded initiative (like the new library on the east side, or art museum, etc.)

I don't think Milwaukee has progressive or visionary politicians, but I'm not sure if many cities do.

The visionaries and investments normally comes from the private sector, and that usually gets drummed up when there is enough demand for a product.

That's actually why I hate the NBA business model. They don't have enough demand to generate enough revenue, so they lean on public funding to make it profitable for them. Taxpayers subsidize the building under the guise that it "helps milwaukee". I'm sure it does help, but I dunno if its $500million worth of help.

 

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