Kevin Love trade

[jesmu84]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11247946/chicago-bulls-join-cleveland-cavaliers-kevin-love-trade-push?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

Pro: I would be happy with Love in Chicago.

Con: I would not be happy with Butler in Minnesota.

[shiloh26]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11247946/chicago-bulls-join-cleveland-cavaliers-kevin-love-trade-push?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

Pro: I would be happy with Love in Chicago.

Con: I would not be happy with Butler in Minnesota.

If Wiggins, Bennett and a 1st rounder hasn't gotten it done, I can't see the Wolves jumping for Butler, Gibson and a 1st rounder.  If the Wolves are going to trade Love, they have to be thinking they'll drop into rebuild mode again, so you'd think they'd want the younger "higher upside" guys.

[brandx]

I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

[DegenerateDish]

This Bulls stuff is all nonsense. Wolves are leaking this "report" to build a market. Don't buy into it for a second.

[shiloh26]

I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

You're probably not wrong?  I think Bosh was a little more highly regarded in 2010 than you're suggesting - he was a third-wheel only by virtue of his two no-doubt Hall of Fame in-their-prime teammates, not by virtue of his lack of skill.  On any other team that year he's almost automatically the second best player, if not the best player.

Love is a fantastic offensive player, especially in today's NBA with the emphasis on floor spacing and perimeter shooting.  People like to think of him with LeBron because LeBron would have theoretically have a ton of space to attack the paint because the opposing team's PF has to respect Love's 3-point shooting. 

There is plenty to criticize about him too, mostly with regard to his defense, but I don't think the lack of playoff appearances is totally fair.  Even beyond the fact that the West has been churning out 45 win non-playoff teams for a long time now, and the fact that the brain trust in Minnesota has swung and missed on almost every high draft pick for the last decade, some metrics (like average margin of victory) had last year's Minnesota team as one of the best non-playoff teams ever. 

[MU82]

I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

I don't know if Love is a top-10 player or not, but your comparison with Bosh helps illustrate why LeBron would love to have Love by his side.

Bosh was in important player on a two-time championship team, and I'm guessing LeBron believes Love would help mightily in that regard.

Michael and Scottie don't win six NBA titles without third wheels named Grant and Rodman; LeBron and Wade don't win two titles without the third wheel Bosh. Whether Love would be the third wheel or Irving would be, that's a pretty nice trio along with LeBron.

I have a feeling we agree on all of this ...

[forgetful]

I don't get the Kevin Love love. Sure, he is a good player, but he hasn't shown any sign that he is a great player.

Chris Bosh - last 2 seasons in Toronto averaged 23 and 10.5

Kevin Love - Last 2 full seasons in Minny averaged 23 and 13.8 (about 500 more minutes than Bosh).

In other words, Love is 3 rebounds a game better than Bosh

6 seasons in the league - 0 playoff appearances.

Has Love ever made any other player on the floor better other than Kevin Love.

Injury history - Love has only played 60 or more games 3 out of 6 seasons. Bosh has played at least 65 games 10 out of 11 years.

So, Bosh was at least as good of a player when he went to Miami as Love is going to wherever he goes. Bosh was considered a good player, a guy who would be a great 3rd wheel. But Love is considered a top 10 player in the league by many. I don't get it.


Someone show me where I am wrong.

I often see this attack on players, but it is a hard metric to judge. 

One could easily ask if Lebron has made anyone on the court better besides himself.  Most players (Bosh, Wade, Big Z) have done worse along side Lebron than they did with him.  One could argue that those players were getting old and less useful, but it can't be proven one way or another.

[brandx]

I don't know if Love is a top-10 player or not, but your comparison with Bosh helps illustrate why LeBron would love to have Love by his side.

Bosh was in important player on a two-time championship team, and I'm guessing LeBron believes Love would help mightily in that regard.

Michael and Scottie don't win six NBA titles without third wheels named Grant and Rodman; LeBron and Wade don't win two titles without the third wheel Bosh. Whether Love would be the third wheel or Irving would be, that's a pretty nice trio along with LeBron.

I have a feeling we agree on all of this ...

Yup. I was playing devil's advocate more than speaking bad of Love.

I guess the question for the Cavs is whether Love is better than wiggins in three years.

[MU82]

Yup. I was playing devil's advocate more than speaking bad of Love.

I guess the question for the Cavs is whether Love is better than wiggins in three years.

Legit question, though if I have a legit chance to win big now I care a little less about 3 years from now.

So the big question the Cavs have to ask is: In the Eastern Conference, does LeBron-Love-Irving-etc give us a good chance to at least get to the NBA Finals? And I wouldn't blame them for answering, "Yes," even though I still believe the Bulls with Rose healthy will be the class of the conference.

[reinko]

If the Wolves screw this up, which is not out of the realm of possibility, it will be worse than the Rubio/Flynn debacle.

[ErickJD08]

I am kinda tired of all of this.  LBJ is the best player in the game and might be the best ever.  But he got his A$$ completely worked in the finals this year.  The reason could be that the Spurs were that good.  But really its because the Heat had really really really good defensive players when they were good.  Wade during LBJs second year was pretty much a shut down defender which created TOs and leak outs for LBJ.  

Cavs have a really good situation but I think LBJ is putting pressure on them to get Love.  Getting Love would be a bad move for them.  They have Wiggins who could be a very good player, maybe great, and his rookie contract give them the flexibility to get key role players around Irving, LBJ, and Wiggins.  Let's face it, a Irving, LBJ, and Love combo with a bunch of old guys on Vets min contracts is not going to be a quality defense.  

LBJs for sure make the Cavs a player in the East because the East is absolutely terrible.  But people make it sound like you just need two or three stars on a team and you have a championship.  If that's true, why haven't the Thunder won who have two absolute studs?  Its still a team game but you need a complete team around your stars.

Finally, I hope the Bulls do not get Love.  I am a big Love fan but with our roster, it doesn't make sense any more.  We have Gasol and Taj in the PF slot.  We have shooters now with McBuckets, Snell, Mike Dunleavy, and Nikolas.  Before the draft and Gasol, Bulls needed shooters and Love fill that void.  Now they have it and they have post up PFs.  The only reason I would be excited to have Love is because I am a season ticket holder and my tickets will not plummet in value when Rose gets hurt.

[Jay Bee]

Lol

Bosh rarely shot 3's. Sub-30% when he did. Kevin stretches you out so much nh. 37.6% last season.

He only played ~17 the year before - was injured. Sheesh

The DR% diff is big - Love is elite.
Assist rates are huge in Love's favor.
Ortg w ~same usage, Win shares, PER, whatever you want... It's all in Kevin's favor.

And the rebounding, 3 shooting & outlet passing make it a silly claim to say Bosh in Toronto v Love now is just a diff if 'a few Rebs'

PS- fully expect us to muck up a trade & get trash or nothing in return.

Love Kevin but he wants to be set free. OK, as long as we get PAID in talent for it.

[shiloh26]

Cavs have a really good situation but I think LBJ is putting pressure on them to get Love.  Getting Love would be a bad move for them.  They have Wiggins who could be a very good player, maybe great, and his rookie contract give them the flexibility to get key role players around Irving, LBJ, and Wiggins.  Let's face it, a Irving, LBJ, and Love combo with a bunch of old guys on Vets min contracts is not going to be a quality defense.  

I agree and frankly, if, as rumored, the Cavs are really offering Wiggins, Bennett and a future first (barring a LeBron injury, it'll be non-lottery, but still), I'm surprised the Wolves haven't already traded Love.  Dude is on the way out of Minnesota after this year anyway.  

The Bulls' and the Warriors' potential packages are inferior to that, IMO.  I guess it depends on how you feel about how good Wiggins will be, and how good you feel Klay Thompson is.

If I'm the Cavs, I would hang onto Wiggins.  With LeBron and Kyrie they're probably already among the top couple teams in the East, and have a good shot at making the Finals.  Let Wiggins grow up for a few years playing with LeBron, and you potentially have an excellent team with an excellent bridge to the future as LeBron inevitably winds down.  The Cavs are in a very enviable spot where they don't have to sacrifice the future to be very good now.

That said, I can totally see why they'd trade for Love, and wouldn't blame them a bit for maximizing their title shot ASAP.  I just don't think I would make the deal.  As noted, Love doesn't fix their biggest need - defense (specifically interior defense).

[brandx]

Legit question, though if I have a legit chance to win big now I care a little less about 3 years from now.

So the big question the Cavs have to ask is: In the Eastern Conference, does LeBron-Love-Irving-etc give us a good chance to at least get to the NBA Finals? And I wouldn't blame them for answering, "Yes," even though I still believe the Bulls with Rose healthy will be the class of the conference.

Agree again. If you can win now vs. possibly win in three years, it really is a pretty easy decision.

[brandx]

I often see this attack on players, but it is a hard metric to judge. 

One could easily ask if Lebron has made anyone on the court better besides himself.  Most players (Bosh, Wade, Big Z) have done worse along side Lebron than they did with him.  One could argue that those players were getting old and less useful, but it can't be proven one way or another.

I may be reading this wrong, but you could not be further from the truth if you tried. And it can be proven very easily.

Without Lebron, the 3 players have 1 Finals appearance in over 20 years.

With Lebron, they have 9 Finals appearances in 17 seasons.

[forgetful]

I may be reading this wrong, but you could not be further from the truth if you tried. And it can be proven very easily.

Without Lebron, the 3 players have 1 Finals appearance in over 20 years.

With Lebron, they have 9 Finals appearances in 17 seasons.

Was looking at individual improvement not team improvement.  I see your point then.  I wasn't arguing that Lebron wasn't a team player or a good player.  Just that unless you are a PG, it is difficult to improve the individual abilities of those around you.

The team being ether with Lebron, absolutely yes, he is a great talent. 

In that regards, Lebron made the Cavs a contender.

[Atticus]

Here's the latest rumored offer on the table:

Minnesota sends Love and Barea to Cleveland and Martin to Philadelphia. Cleveland sends Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett, three non-guaranteed contracts and two 2015 first-round draft picks to Minnesota and Dion Waiters to Philadelphia. Philadelphia sends Thaddeus Young to Cleveland.

I personally think the price is too steep. Cleveland will completely deplete their second unit and have to cross their fingers that Varejao, Irving and Love can all stay healthy when each has a history that says otherwise.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

This Bulls stuff is all nonsense. Wolves are leaking this "report" to build a market. Don't buy into it for a second.

This.

[GGGG]

If I'm the Cavs, I would hang onto Wiggins.  With LeBron and Kyrie they're probably already among the top couple teams in the East, and have a good shot at making the Finals.  Let Wiggins grow up for a few years playing with LeBron, and you potentially have an excellent team with an excellent bridge to the future as LeBron inevitably winds down.  The Cavs are in a very enviable spot where they don't have to sacrifice the future to be very good now.

Lebron isn't waiting "for a few years" on Wiggins.

Unless you can consistently build a team from the draft the path to an NBA title has become pretty obvious.  You get a superstar and surround him with talent to win ASAP.  You don't wait to have talent develop around him.

With the exception of the Spurs, who are truly exceptional at what they do, look at the list of recent NBA champions.  They all fit that model.

The Heat...Mavericks...Lakers...

[🏀]

Chris Sherdian reported it is a legit offer.

[shiloh26]

Lebron isn't waiting "for a few years" on Wiggins.

Unless you can consistently build a team from the draft the path to an NBA title has become pretty obvious.  You get a superstar and surround him with talent to win ASAP.  You don't wait to have talent develop around him.

With the exception of the Spurs, who are truly exceptional at what they do, look at the list of recent NBA champions.  They all fit that model.

The Heat...Mavericks...Lakers...

You're probably right and it's looking more and more like this trade will be completed.  As I said, even though I think it's the Cavs best long term option to hang onto Wiggins, I can't fault them in trading for a player as good and as complementary to LeBron as Love, for just those reasons. 

[GooooMarquette]

Wiggins will probably be awesome in two or three years...or he could be one of those lottery picks who we later learn was overrated (Adam Morrison, anyone?  Shaun Livingston?  DARKO MILICIC?).

Love is a known elite-level player who could help the Cavs win championships asap...which is exactly what LBJ and Cavs fans want.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

If the Bulls could get Love for McDermott, Mirotic and Taj (which is the latest rumor) you absolutely pull the trigger. I have no problem with that trade in the slightest.

[brandx]

Wiggins will probably be awesome in two or three years...or he could be one of those lottery picks who we later learn was overrated (Adam Morrison, anyone?  Shaun Livingston?  DARKO MILICIC?).

Love is a known elite-level player who could help the Cavs win championships asap...which is exactly what LBJ and Cavs fans want.

Livingston was injured - not nexessarily over rated.

Love is comparable to Bosh 4 years ago - a very good player, but not sure I would call him elite.

[DegenerateDish]

I know Sheridan reported it, but I still believe the Wolves are leaking this.

This Bulls offer is the same one they offered last year (Gibson, Mirotic, 1st rounder, which is McDermott).

I'm not buying into any of it.