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Author Topic: espn-double standard much??  (Read 65136 times)

rocket surgeon

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2014, 07:28:27 PM »
I think denying another group the rights that you yourself enjoy is the essence of intolerance.

That being said, I support his right to feel that way. I think it is wrong and un-American, but I was raised in an Evangelical church so I know why he feels the way he does. It is what he was taught.

It reminds me very much of the early years of the AIDS crisis when many "christians" held the view that the gays got what they deserved so let 'em die.

very well said, but careful of the strawmen.  you are right though ;D
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WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2014, 08:35:44 PM »
I think denying another group the rights that you yourself enjoy is the essence of intolerance.

That being said, I support his right to feel that way. I think it is wrong and un-American, but I was raised in an Evangelical church so I know why he feels the way he does. It is what he was taught.

It reminds me very much of the early years of the AIDS crisis when many "christians" held the view that the gays got what they deserved so let 'em die.

I'm sorry I just don't see anyone's right being denied in this story. Sam was drafted and has a chance to WIN a place on an NFL team. I take Tony at his word that he just wouldn't welcome the media circus in this instance. I'm sure were it  a Michael Vick or Tom Brady he would not have a problem because they bring attention regardless.

brandx

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2014, 10:32:04 PM »
I'm sorry I just don't see anyone's right being denied in this story. Sam was drafted and has a chance to WIN a place on an NFL team. I take Tony at his word that he just wouldn't welcome the media circus in this instance. I'm sure were it  a Michael Vick or Tom Brady he would not have a problem because they bring attention regardless.

I was referring to the work that Dungy has done fighting against gay marriage.

It's interesting, though, that he never speaks out about actual criminals in the NFL - all of those arrested for assault or beating women over the last few years. I guess only the gays really bother this man.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2014, 07:40:27 AM »
I'm sorry I just don't see anyone's right being denied in this story. Sam was drafted and has a chance to WIN a place on an NFL team. I take Tony at his word that he just wouldn't welcome the media circus in this instance. I'm sure were it  a Michael Vick or Tom Brady he would not have a problem because they can actually make the team better.

fixed

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2014, 08:22:41 AM »
We had a nice, open exchange between several posters, and the media never came up once. Politics never really came up.  

You interject, and it's immediately about some sort of bigger media/political/racial hypocrisy.

You're not wrong I guess, but I just don't think it necessary to race out to that part of the discussion. In the coming weeks, I'm sure more stuff will be said, and then we can all pontificate on the media and it's hypocrisy.


Actually, go back and read the posts, I was not the first person to bring up a political example.  I responded to one post that did.

You can wish to ignore that hypocrisy exists throughout society and is played differently in the media, etc if you wish, we all know that is the case and can come up with examples until time ends to prove it out.

I can only imagine Brand and Sultan's responses in this thread, one of the better moves I've made. 

mu03eng

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2014, 08:47:20 AM »
I think denying another group the rights that you yourself enjoy is the essence of intolerance.

Not defending what he said, but he isn't denying anyone their rights, he is expressing his choice/opinion.  He isn't saying no one should draft Sam, he is saying he wouldn't.  I agree with your assumption of where his opinion is coming from but that doesn't change that, however misguided, he is entitled to it and to label it as intolerance is to stifle the free exchange of ideas.
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2014, 08:55:43 AM »
Happy to see Tony didn't apologize, which surprised me a bit.  He stood by his answer, certainly clarified it but stood by it.  Reasoned and well thought out.  He wouldn't want the circus attached to it, and as a coach that is a big deal.


mu03eng

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2014, 09:04:10 AM »
Happy to see Tony didn't apologize, which surprised me a bit.  He stood by his answer, certainly clarified it but stood by it.  Reasoned and well thought out.  He wouldn't want the circus attached to it, and as a coach that is a big deal.



Agreed....doesn't make him any less of a hypocrite.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2014, 09:25:41 AM »
Happy to see Tony didn't apologize, which surprised me a bit.  He stood by his answer, certainly clarified it but stood by it.  Reasoned and well thought out.  He wouldn't want the circus attached to it, and as a coach that is a big deal.



At best Tony Dungy has revealed himself to be a very small and intolerant man. At worst, a bigot. And as someone who admired him, this makes you happy?

Would you likewise celebrate a white guy who opined that he wouldn't have played for Dungy because he didn't want the "circus" attached to the hiring of the first black NFL head coach?

Intolerance and bigotry can seem to the gullible to be "reasoned and well thought out", I suppose, but that doesn't make them any less intolerant or bigoted.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2014, 09:25:57 AM »
Actually, go back and read the posts, I was not the first person to bring up a political example.  I responded to one post that did.

You can wish to ignore that hypocrisy exists throughout society and is played differently in the media, etc if you wish, we all know that is the case and can come up with examples until time ends to prove it out.

I can only imagine Brand and Sultan's responses in this thread, one of the better moves I've made. 

That's fine, but you seem to run sprint immediately to these political/hypocrisy angles. It's happened a lot over the years.

I understand that if Tony was green and from Mars, the story might be different. I also understand that MSNBC and FOX could spend weeks talking about this and come up with completely different conclusions and make thousands of inferences. (hooray, no biases here!)

All that is a given, I just don't know why we have to immediately rush to that angle on the story. This isn't a political board. We don't need to frame up every topic in the context of political/media/racial hypocrisy. We can just discuss it and exchange some thoughts.

You are correct that you weren't the first guy in the thread to do it, but it seems to be a habit that you have formed, and out of frustration, I had to say something.

GGGG

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2014, 09:36:00 AM »
Happy to see Tony didn't apologize, which surprised me a bit.  He stood by his answer, certainly clarified it but stood by it.  Reasoned and well thought out.  He wouldn't want the circus attached to it, and as a coach that is a big deal.


What distraction?  What circus?  Jeff Fisher doesn't think Sam has been a distraction.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-07-23/michael-sam-tony-dungy-jeff-fisher-st-louis-rams-nfl-draft

So *at best* one could say that Dungy was completely off-base in his thoughts that Sam would be a distraction.  Maybe he should apologize simply for assuming there would be a distraction in the first place?

brandx

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2014, 11:08:00 AM »
Maybe he really is distracted by all these gay people as they stir up some special feelings deep within his soul ;)


mu-rara

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2014, 11:46:54 AM »
I was referring to the work that Dungy has done fighting against gay marriage.

It's interesting, though, that he never speaks out about actual criminals in the NFL - all of those arrested for assault or beating women over the last few years. I guess only the gays really bother this man.
Proof that brandx harbors resentment toward gay men.

rocket surgeon

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2014, 07:44:40 PM »
Happy to see Tony didn't apologize, which surprised me a bit.  He stood by his answer, certainly clarified it but stood by it.  Reasoned and well thought out.  He wouldn't want the circus attached to it, and as a coach that is a big deal.



and this isn't the only player that some coaches/gm's would ignore in order to avoid the media distractions.  examples-chris kluwe, allen iverson, terrell owens, etc, where the baggage is heavier than their talent.  how many reporters approach coach x and ask him why he wouldn't consider bringing allen iverson on board?  if his answer is that he doesn't want the distractions, does that make him a racist?  some gm's avoid certain players because of the agent they employ.  scott boras anyone?  if you really think about it, the media is kind of getting in sams way here and diminishing some of his opportunities.  if i were sam, i would tell the media to f' off...good luck with that sam
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GGGG

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2014, 07:53:52 PM »
and this isn't the only player that some coaches/gm's would ignore in order to avoid the media distractions.  examples-chris kluwe, allen iverson, terrell owens, etc, where the baggage is heavier than their talent.  how many reporters approach coach x and ask him why he wouldn't consider bringing allen iverson on board?  if his answer is that he doesn't want the distractions, does that make him a racist?  some gm's avoid certain players because of the agent they employ.  scott boras anyone?  if you really think about it, the media is kind of getting in sams way here and diminishing some of his opportunities.  if i were sam, i would tell the media to f' off...good luck with that sam


Kluwe, Iverson and Owens are distractions because they intentionally distract.

Sam is a "distraction" because he is gay.

brandx

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2014, 08:17:23 PM »
and this isn't the only player that some coaches/gm's would ignore in order to avoid the media distractions.  examples-chris kluwe, allen iverson, terrell owens, etc, where the baggage is heavier than their talent.  how many reporters approach coach x and ask him why he wouldn't consider bringing allen iverson on board?  if his answer is that he doesn't want the distractions, does that make him a racist?  some gm's avoid certain players because of the agent they employ.  scott boras anyone?  if you really think about it, the media is kind of getting in sams way here and diminishing some of his opportunities.  if i were sam, i would tell the media to f' off...good luck with that sam

I don't really disagree with you here, Surgeon, except for the fact that Dungy does have issues with the gay lifestyle. He has said that he does not believe a gay man should have the same right to get married that he himself enjoys. That is really the context in which I see this issue.

I think Dungy used the "distraction" excuse as a cover.

rocket surgeon

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2014, 08:38:35 PM »

Kluwe, Iverson and Owens are distractions because they intentionally distract.

Sam is a "distraction" because he is gay.

kluwe, iverson and owens-ok, kind of.  it's their personalities-i guess you could say they were born that way?

sam should not be distracting- he is gay.  who really cares.  it's the media.  look what they did with tim tebow. tim tebow obviously wasn't very good. the media a real hard one for him.  yes, i do know why.  anyway, how many thousands of players don't make it in pro sports that you never hear a word about?  but an 8th round draft pick-leave him alone.  play ball 
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jesmu84

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2014, 09:05:40 PM »
and this isn't the only player that some coaches/gm's would ignore in order to avoid the media distractions.  examples-chris kluwe, allen iverson, terrell owens, etc, where the baggage is heavier than their talent.  how many reporters approach coach x and ask him why he wouldn't consider bringing allen iverson on board?  if his answer is that he doesn't want the distractions, does that make him a racist?  some gm's avoid certain players because of the agent they employ.  scott boras anyone?  if you really think about it, the media is kind of getting in sams way here and diminishing some of his opportunities.  if i were sam, i would tell the media to f' off...good luck with that sam

You are 100% correct. But in THIS CASE, for this individual (Dungy), he's claiming he wouldn't have drafted Sam d/t Sam being a "distraction." Yet he (Dungy) was more than willing to acquire/support other distractions in the past. So, I just want to know why. And, if it's because Sam is gay, and Dungy has a personal/religious reason for that mindset, so be it. He's entitled to that. I just want to hear him say why he believes THIS "distraction" is the problem.

brandx

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2014, 09:08:08 PM »
You are 100% correct. But in THIS CASE, for this individual (Dungy), he's claiming he wouldn't have drafted Sam d/t Sam being a "distraction." Yet he (Dungy) was more than willing to acquire/support other distractions in the past. So, I just want to know why. And, if it's because Sam is gay, and Dungy has a personal/religious reason for that mindset, so be it. He's entitled to that. I just want to hear him say why he believes THIS "distraction" is the problem.

You said it much better than I.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2014, 09:25:34 PM »
You are 100% correct. But in THIS CASE, for this individual (Dungy), he's claiming he wouldn't have drafted Sam d/t Sam being a "distraction." Yet he (Dungy) was more than willing to acquire/support other distractions in the past. So, I just want to know why. And, if it's because Sam is gay, and Dungy has a personal/religious reason for that mindset, so be it. He's entitled to that. I just want to hear him say why he believes THIS "distraction" is the problem.

I disagree as there are levels of distraction.  He specifically said it was in response to the OWN (Oprah) 24/7 reality show nonsense that goes along with it.  Other distractions (e.g. Michael Vick) didn't come with that same level of distraction all season long.  Sure, Vick was a story and it got great coverage for a few weeks, but died out, press stopped paying attention.  That's different than having a camera crew following one of your guys each and every week, constantly keeping things in the news.  It's one of the reasons why HBO has to beg a team these days just to do Hard Knocks, it is too much of a distraction.  IMO, he has said that THIS distraction is an issue tied to the level it was going to be played out.

Jay Bee

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2014, 09:29:15 PM »

Kluwe, Iverson and Owens are distractions because they intentionally distract.

Sam is a "distraction" because he is gay.

And because he makes a spectacle of it.
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jesmu84

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2014, 09:35:45 PM »
I disagree as there are levels of distraction.  He specifically said it was in response to the OWN (Oprah) 24/7 reality show nonsense that goes along with it.  Other distractions (e.g. Michael Vick) didn't come with that same level of distraction all season long.  Sure, Vick was a story and it got great coverage for a few weeks, but died out, press stopped paying attention.  That's different than having a camera crew following one of your guys each and every week, constantly keeping things in the news.  It's one of the reasons why HBO has to beg a team these days just to do Hard Knocks, it is too much of a distraction.  IMO, he has said that THIS distraction is an issue tied to the level it was going to be played out.

It appears Dungy's original comments were taken when the OWN show was to follow Sam around. Since Dungy's comments, that show has been cancelled and never seemed to have taken place at all. I would be curious, then, if, without the show, Dungy would have made the same comments. I'm guessing we'll never know.

Here's something, kinda weird though. Why did the Tampa Trib just publish these quotes now when they were supposedly back from the time right after Sam was drafted and when the OWN show was still scheduled? Media trying to stir things up? Probably. And the TT didn't even acknowledge that Dungy's original quotes came from back at that time.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2014, 09:49:11 PM »
It appears Dungy's original comments were taken when the OWN show was to follow Sam around. Since Dungy's comments, that show has been cancelled and never seemed to have taken place at all. I would be curious, then, if, without the show, Dungy would have made the same comments. I'm guessing we'll never know.

Here's something, kinda weird though. Why did the Tampa Trib just publish these quotes now when they were supposedly back from the time right after Sam was drafted and when the OWN show was still scheduled? Media trying to stir things up? Probably. And the TT didn't even acknowledge that Dungy's original quotes came from back at that time.

Considering my love for the media that is well known here, especially their ability to edit, take things out of context, leave entire quotes or passages out so the reader never knows......I'll say no more.

mu03eng

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2014, 08:05:07 AM »
I disagree as there are levels of distraction.  He specifically said it was in response to the OWN (Oprah) 24/7 reality show nonsense that goes along with it.  Other distractions (e.g. Michael Vick) didn't come with that same level of distraction all season long.  Sure, Vick was a story and it got great coverage for a few weeks, but died out, press stopped paying attention.  That's different than having a camera crew following one of your guys each and every week, constantly keeping things in the news.  It's one of the reasons why HBO has to beg a team these days just to do Hard Knocks, it is too much of a distraction.  IMO, he has said that THIS distraction is an issue tied to the level it was going to be played out.

What did Dungy make a levels of distraction argument?  Did he make an argument that the amount of distraction Sam would generate was not commensurate with the benefit or talent he would bring to a team?  The answer to both is no, both are things he could have clarified in his follow-up statement, which he did not.  Therefore he is a hypocrite
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GGGG

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Re: espn-double standard much??
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2014, 08:15:46 AM »
And because he makes a spectacle of it.


Yeah I know.  Being openly gay is just so distracting.