espn-double standard much??

[Golden Avalanche]

Dungy would have been better served if he simply said he was a God-fearing man who finds Sam's sexual orientation an abomination that it would be far too big a "distraction" for him to handle even though he's a self-pimping guru of solving repeated "distractions" for many other players and/or organizations.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nor does it give you the authority to say they are wrong.  They might be wrong in your opinion, doesn't make him wrong, however.

What if someone had a choice to hire a candidate among a man and a woman, one was incredibly flirtatious and had a bad reputation for hooking up with the men in her office, causing all kinds of issues.  The male candidate was not quite as accomplished, but didn't carry any baggage.  As a hiring manager you decided on the latter, not the former and told HR why due to those concerns.  Some in this society would say you are discriminating, in fact this situation was one shared with me by a colleague. 

Maybe Dungy was merely talking about what he, in his opinion as a football man, thought would happen to his team and whether it was worth it.  Is he wrong?  Maybe.  Is he right, maybe. 

Your specific scenario, illustrates a specific trait or rationale of a person. That SPECIFIC woman had a reputation. While I don't agree with assigning that kind of stuff, at least it's localized to a specific person.

What Tony has done (in theory) is assign the trait of "distraction" to any gay football player. If he said "I've met Michael Sam, and I've interviewed him at length. I wouldn't hire him because I think HE could be a distraction.", it would be tough to argue about that because I don't know Michael Sam.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Michael Sam was drafted and will have a chance to make an NFL roster.  Anything else?

Righhhhht, and Jackie Robinson got a job too... doesn't mean the rest of the league was fine.

Again, Michael Sam is MILES ahead of Jackie Robinson, but the underlying logic is still the same. Same for women in the workplace.

People shouldn't be disqualified for a job (on ANY team or ANY business) because they are (insert thing), which is what Tony is admitting he'd do (if he could).

I'm not "outraged", but when people in football say stupid crap, they should be called on it.

[mu03eng]

Here are facts:
-Tony Dungy would not have drafted Michael Sam because he believes Sam would be a distraction
-Tony Dungy supported bringing players in that would cause distractions in previous instances
-Tony Dungy is allowed to voice his opinion
-Others are allowed to voice their opinion in return
-Tony Dungy is a hypocrite in this instance

Here are opinions:
-I believe Tony Dungy's opinion in this matter is wrong
-I believe he shouldn't apologize for his opinion but he should at a minimum recognize his hypocrisy so he can grow from this.
-I believe anyone who tries to "shout down" Dungy for this and/or extract an apology is wrong
-I believe that anyone who questions the fact that Dungy isn't being forced to apologize is also wrong
-I believe that we will win(and that meme should stop at games)  

[mu-rara]

Righhhhht, and Jackie Robinson got a job too... doesn't mean the rest of the league was fine.

Again, Michael Sam is MILES ahead of Jackie Robinson, but the underlying logic is still the same. Same for women in the workplace.

People shouldn't be disqualified for a job (on ANY team or ANY business) because of they are (insert thing).

I'm not "outraged", but when people in football say stupid crap, they should be called on it.

SO,

If I stipulate for the record that Tony Dungy is a hypocrite because he advocated for Michael Vick (a distraction) will you acknowledge that his opinion on Michael Sam did not keep Michael Sam from being drafted (that is good, right?) and Michael Sam has a chance to play NFL football (I hope he does).

[Lennys Tap]

Here are facts:
-Tony Dungy would not have drafted Michael Sam because he believes Sam would be a distraction
-Tony Dungy supported bringing players in that would cause distractions in previous instances
-Tony Dungy is allowed to voice his opinion
-Others are allowed to voice their opinion in return
-Tony Dungy is a hypocrite in this instance

Well done. One additional fact: Tony Dungy has benefitted from employers willing to deal with the distractions his employment might cause.

The only thing that could possibly make "Tony Dungy is a hypocrite in this instance" not a FACT would be if he was lying, didn't care about the "distraction" angle and simply didn't want homosexuals on his team because they're homosexuals. In that case, the FACT is he's not a hypocrite, he's a liar and a homophobe.

[Lennys Tap]

SO,

If I stipulate for the record that Tony Dungy is a hypocrite because he advocated for Michael Vick (a distraction) will you acknowledge that his opinion on Michael Sam did not keep Michael Sam from being drafted (that is good, right?) and Michael Sam has a chance to play NFL football (I hope he does).

You are right on.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

SO,

If I stipulate for the record that Tony Dungy is a hypocrite because he advocated for Michael Vick (a distraction) will you acknowledge that his opinion on Michael Sam did not keep Michael Sam from being drafted (that is good, right?) and Michael Sam has a chance to play NFL football (I hope he does).

Yes, so to be clear, Tony's opinion has no effect on Michael's actual employment. That's completely fair.

And yes, Tony is a hypocrite because of his other comments.

Sam is getting an opportunity, which is a great start.

I just don't share Tony's opinion, because I think it's flat out wrong to discriminate against somebody because they are gay.

[brandx]

Keep building that strawman Chicos....

Modus Operandi.

If his barn ever catches fire, it will be gone in seconds with the hundreds of strawmen he has stored in there..

[jesmu84]

Here are facts:
-Tony Dungy would not have drafted Michael Sam because he believes Sam would be a distraction
-Tony Dungy supported bringing players in that would cause distractions in previous instances
-Tony Dungy is allowed to voice his opinion
-Others are allowed to voice their opinion in return
-Tony Dungy is a hypocrite in this instance

This.

[mu-rara]

Yes, so to be clear, Tony's opinion has no effect on Michael's actual employment. That's completely fair.

And yes, Tony is a hypocrite because of his other comments.

Sam is getting an opportunity, which is a great start.

I just don't share Tony's opinion, because I think it's flat out wrong to discriminate against somebody because they are gay.

Fair enough. 

I'd like to teach the world to sing........

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Fair enough. 

I'd like to teach the world to sing........

Well, truthfully, as you said before, we are WAYYYYY ahead of where we were, and the culture is continuing to change. That's great. All positive stuff. I absolutely recognize that.

However, I still think people (like Tony) who say stupid stuff need to be called out. That's part of the progress/process of change.

Now, that doesn't mean you need to give your 92yr old grandmother a lecture on tolerance, but a guy like Tony? He should know better.

[brandx]

Does anyone believe this is anything but Tony's religious beliefs that are driving his statement?

He has shown no reluctance signing "bad" people before and I have no doubt that he understands discrimination against a particular group of people.

[jesmu84]

Does anyone believe this is anything but Tony's religious beliefs that are driving his statement?

He has shown no reluctance signing "bad" people before and I have no doubt that he understands discrimination against a particular group of people.

Hard to think otherwise. And I would totally understand it and respect it if he would just say that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Easy dude.

We don't need to jump up on the soap box. Keep it simple.

Tony expressed an opinion. Now he's getting ripped (by some).

The punishment/hypocrisy/media/etc. isn't the issue (yet). When that happens, then you can start down this path.

That's part of the entire issue.  The ripping and level of ripping (intensity) is always a site to behold.  The veracity of  punishment / outrage / etc has many filters based on who said it, not necessarily the what.

[Lennys Tap]

That's part of the entire issue.  The ripping and level of ripping (intensity) is always a site to behold.  The veracity of  punishment / outrage / etc has many filters based on who said it, not necessarily the what.

What exactly is your point? Are you saying that a black guy who plays the "distraction" card to hide his ignorance and homophobia is treated differently than the white guy who does the same thing? Seriously?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's part of the entire issue.  The ripping and level of ripping (intensity) is always a site to behold.  The veracity of  punishment / outrage / etc has many filters based on who said it, not necessarily the what.

We had a nice, open exchange between several posters, and the media never came up once. Politics never really came up.  

You interject, and it's immediately about some sort of bigger media/political/racial hypocrisy.

You're not wrong I guess, but I just don't think it necessary to race out to that part of the discussion. In the coming weeks, I'm sure more stuff will be said, and then we can all pontificate on the media and it's hypocrisy.

[brandx]

Very simply stated, the "distraction" excuse is a LIE. Plain and simple. Sam has been through rookie orientation, mini-camp, voluntary workouts, etc. What have we read about him through all of this? Nothing!!!

And the reason is simple. Jeff Fisher is a man. Tony Dungy is a lying, intolerant coward.

Tony has never shied from distractions.
1. He was a very vocal supporter of the most hated athlete in the NFL (Vick).
2. He was a huge supporter of the biggest distraction in the history of the NFL (Tebow).
3. He had no problem with the distraction of hiring known gang members (Johnson).

This is about one thing and one thing only. Tony's intolerant religious view. Tony is against gays having the same rights as non-gay Americans. And this isn't the first time he has been very vocal about it.

Tony has the right to whatever views he wants. To couch it in terms of being a "distraction" exposes him for the kind of man that he is.

[rocket surgeon]

We had a nice, open exchange between several posters, and the media never came up once. Politics never really came up.  

You interject, and it's immediately about some sort of bigger media/political/racial hypocrisy.

You're not wrong I guess, but I just don't think it necessary to race out to that part of the discussion. In the coming weeks, I'm sure more stuff will be said, and then we can all pontificate on the media and it's hypocrisy.

just curious, what is "bigger media/political/racial hypocrisy" about what chico said?

what chico said is unfortunately right.  i could cite many examples but i won't.  sometimes, however, what chico said is part of the "open exchange"

[brandx]

just curious, what is "bigger media/political/racial hypocrisy" about what chico said?

what chico said is unfortunately right.  i could cite many examples but i won't.  sometimes, however, what chico said is part of the "open exchange"

I think his point is that Chicos always turns any discussion like this into a right vs. left political thing.

Most of us think it is about one lying, intolerant man. Nothing to do with Chicos agenda.

[MU82]

Very simply stated, the "distraction" excuse is a LIE. Plain and simple. Sam has been through rookie orientation, mini-camp, voluntary workouts, etc. What have we read about him through all of this? Nothing!!!

And the reason is simple. Jeff Fisher is a man. Tony Dungy is a lying, intolerant coward.

Tony has never shied from distractions.
1. He was a very vocal supporter of the most hated athlete in the NFL (Vick).
2. He was a huge supporter of the biggest distraction in the history of the NFL (Tebow).
3. He had no problem with the distraction of hiring known gang members (Johnson).

This is about one thing and one thing only. Tony's intolerant religious view. Tony is against gays having the same rights as non-gay Americans. And this isn't the first time he has been very vocal about it.

Tony has the right to whatever views he wants. To couch it in terms of being a "distraction" exposes him for the kind of man that he is.

Wow, is this an excellent analysis. I'll pay the ultimate compliment: I wish I had said it first!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

just curious, what is "bigger media/political/racial hypocrisy" about what chico said?

what chico said is unfortunately right.  i could cite many examples but i won't.  sometimes, however, what chico said is part of the "open exchange"

Because what Tony Dungy said is about TONY DUNGY. We don't need to make it into a whole commentary on how America is PC or not PC, light skinned, not lot skinned, "flak givers", etc.

I'm sure next week there will be a statement from NBC, and at that point, we can all gasp at how the world is too PC, and Tony is just a good dude who go railroaded, but for now, it would be nice to just discuss the actual content of what he said.

Tony said something. Let's discuss it... not the political implications or the eventual political/media hypocrisy.

When somebody races out to that end of the conversation, it makes me think they are just sitting around waiting for stuff like this so they can promote their own agenda/belief. It's bogus.

Simple reality is that a number of other people saying what Dungy said on ESPN would be suspended or worse, just the way it is.  I love Dungy, respect the heck out of him...he has done work for us in the past so I am bias. I appreciate his honesty and he has the ability to be honest in a PC world without retribution.  Many others do not.

He may not be right, but he said what he felt and I applaud that, especially in today's world where you often cannot do that without retaliation of some kind.

I asked the same question when Joe said that very thing 6 years ago, and then wondered if someone other than Joe or his side said it how much of an uproar it would have caused, how many heads exploded, etc.  Then I thought about those running a Dunkin Donuts for a bit.....

Agree

The part that bothers me to no end is that the Flak Givers, the Flak Shooters tend to ramp up or dial back their targeting.   As has ALWAYS been the case and is even more of an issue in today's society, it isn't always what is said, but who says the what.   Free passes or wrist slaps are given out a plenty, and watching the double standard is half the fun sad part.

Reminds of a time when someone talked about a "light skinned" gentlemen without a dialect....it's all about who says it.

He's not a bigot in my opinion.  I've had the pleasure of working with him on many occasions and find him to be an upstanding individual. 

I don't find him hypocritical at all, in fact I think you missed the entire point.  I find the hypocrisy in those that decide who gets wrist slapped, who gets fired, who should be outraged.   Put another way, someone other than Tony Dungy says that, and hell breaks lose.  Put another way, some on the right says a certain someone is light skinned without a dialect and he is destroyed while the person that did use those words is given a butterfly kiss wrist slap.

[mu03eng]

This is about one thing and one thing only. Tony's intolerant religious view. Tony is against gays having the same rights as non-gay Americans. And this isn't the first time he has been very vocal about it.

Tony has the right to whatever views he wants. To couch it in terms of being a "distraction" exposes him for the kind of man that he is.

While I agree that Tony is likely couching his views behind distraction, to assume that it is religious based(while likely true) is unfair.  Further, if it is a personally held view regardless of it origination, that doesn't make it intolerant.  Do I think the view is wrong? Yes, and clearly so do you.  But that doesn't mean we get to call it intolerant or unacceptable.

Sorry but intolerance as a concept is thrown around way too much and it stifles conversation IMHO

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Didn't Sam get drafted in the 8th round?  His chances of making a squad are slim. Dungy was being honest when he doubted he would draft such a distraction when the player has such a slim chance to produce. He didn't deny anyone a chance to make a living and he wasn't discriminating against someone's sexual preference. He simply made a judgement that all the hoopla wasn't worth the product if he were in the position to draft players. Everybody need to take a deep breath on this one.

[brandx]

While I agree that Tony is likely couching his views behind distraction, to assume that it is religious based(while likely true) is unfair.  Further, if it is a personally held view regardless of it origination, that doesn't make it intolerant.  Do I think the view is wrong? Yes, and clearly so do you.  But that doesn't mean we get to call it intolerant or unacceptable.

Sorry but intolerance as a concept is thrown around way too much and it stifles conversation IMHO

I think denying another group the rights that you yourself enjoy is the essence of intolerance.

That being said, I support his right to feel that way. I think it is wrong and un-American, but I was raised in an Evangelical church so I know why he feels the way he does. It is what he was taught.

It reminds me very much of the early years of the AIDS crisis when many "christians" held the view that the gays got what they deserved so let 'em die.