Al Renovation Rumors

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

By comparison, total cost per school year to attend Georgetown is 62k, Villanova is 59k, Seton Hall is 49k, Creighton is 48k, DePaul is 49k, Xavier is 47k, Butler is 49k, Providence is 58k and St. John's is 57k. Also, ND is 60k for this year.

Got these numbers from http://www.collegedata.com/

It's a good point, and I think a lot of schools (particularly private schools) might be in for a rude awakening.

I don't mean to sound like some sort of doomsdayer, but these schools can't possibly sustain this kind of economic growth.

There is a breaking point where people will just choose other options. It might not be today, it might not be in 5 years. But, at this rate, secondary education, and particularly private schools are going to hit the ceiling. I hope MU doesn't smash it's head.

[JWags85]

Marquette's tuition is crazy, but I have to admit that they're no worse than most private schools out there. Who is honestly paying 50 grand per year at Beloit?

Bob Benson

[GGGG]

It's a good point, and I think a lot of schools (particularly private schools) might be in for a rude awakening.

I don't mean to sound like some sort of doomsdayer, but these schools can't possibly sustain this kind of economic growth.

There is a breaking point where people will just choose other options. It might not be today, it might not be in 5 years. But, at this rate, secondary education, and particularly private schools are going to hit the ceiling. I hope MU doesn't smash it's head.

Yeah but this is all about the math.  The vast, vast majority of people don't pay the list price. 

I would have thought that a bunch of the smaller, liberal arts colleges would have disappeared with the last recession.  But most survived.  A number of poor and rural schools closed.  But for instance there hasn't been a four year school closing in Wisconsin since Mt. Scenario in the late 90s.  (School located in Ladysmith with a focus on educating Native Americans and they lost their main funding source...DeRance Foundation.)  Many of the other little ones (Silver Lake, Mount Mary, Viterbo, Northland, etc.) seem to be doing just fine.

But we'll see...

[Benny B]

Yeah but this is all about the math.  The vast, vast majority of people don't pay the list price.  

I would have thought that a bunch of the smaller, liberal arts colleges would have disappeared with the last recession.  But most survived.  A number of poor and rural schools closed.  But for instance there hasn't been a four year school closing in Wisconsin since Mt. Scenario in the late 90s.  (School located in Ladysmith with a focus on educating Native Americans and they lost their main funding source...DeRance Foundation.)  Many of the other little ones (Silver Lake, Mount Mary, Viterbo, Northland, etc.) seem to be doing just fine.

But we'll see...

When you look at the grads that the smaller liberal arts schools are turning out and where they're going to work, I don't see the new education model as a threat... the vast majority of my liberal arts buddies are B2B sales, police officer, institutional administrator, HR generalist, RN, and PR/media liaison types... these are critical-to-society jobs that are not at all conducive to online, distance or self-education models.  For the "new education" model to be successful, you have to have students who have the analytical skills and EQ to flourish in what basically amounts to a self-teaching environment... and these kids are going to be more attracted to careers in science, math & technology than service, communications and law enforcement.

The real threat to the liberal arts schools are the tech schools and community colleges... MATC and MSOE have been around longer than many liberal arts schools, and not only are their funding sources a little more reliable, but they're slowly moving in on the territory of the liberal arts schools in their course and curricula offerings.  It's not long before every community college is offering the same bachelor programs as the Lawrences, Cardinal Stritches and Concordias of the world.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yeah but this is all about the math.  The vast, vast majority of people don't pay the list price. 

I would have thought that a bunch of the smaller, liberal arts colleges would have disappeared with the last recession.  But most survived.  A number of poor and rural schools closed.  But for instance there hasn't been a four year school closing in Wisconsin since Mt. Scenario in the late 90s.  (School located in Ladysmith with a focus on educating Native Americans and they lost their main funding source...DeRance Foundation.)  Many of the other little ones (Silver Lake, Mount Mary, Viterbo, Northland, etc.) seem to be doing just fine.

But we'll see...

That's because the federal government was still handing out student loans like candy. This will not be so in the next 5-15 years.

Really, these schools should have gone down during the last recession. But there is so little education on financial planning as it results to college choice. Students go to what school they want with little thought of how long the loans will take them to pay off. Personally, I think it is unethical for some of these schools to take on students when they know full well that the student will be unable to pay off their loans. Why would anyone want to pay near $50,000 for a year at Beloit? What kind of ROI can they really expect?

A few years back, former Secretary of Education William Bennett made the claim that only 150 out of 3500 colleges are worth the price of tuition. His study has been debunked some, but the general point he was trying to make still stands. Fortunately, Marquette is currently on the list with the 123rd best ROI. But if tuition keeps rising, I don't know if that will be true for long.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When we added lacrosse we moved to 8 mens and 8 womens sports. The minimum is 7 and 7.

My bad, you are right.  Keep forgetting about Lacrosse.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

That's because the federal government was still handing out student loans like candy. This will not be so in the next 5-15 years.

I wonder how many of these very small liberal arts schools would disappear almost overnight if the student loans from government ended.

I'm also not sure that schools are interested in dropping "low ROI" majors. To the school, I wonder if these are not the major money makers. Think about it. An engineering major and a history major pay the same tuition, but how much more does it cost to pay the engineering prof and to build a brand new engineering building, versus having the history major take all his classes in Weir Chemistry or whatever.

Stupid majors are money makers for universities.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I wonder how many of these very small liberal arts schools would disappear almost overnight if the student loans from government ended.

I'm also not sure that schools are interested in dropping "low ROI" majors. To the school, I wonder if these are not the major money makers. Think about it. An engineering major and a history major pay the same tuition, but how much more does it cost to pay the engineering prof and to build a brand new engineering building, versus having the history major take all his classes in Weir Chemistry or whatever.

Stupid majors are money makers for universities.

That's true but only one small piece of the puzzle.

Which college do you think rakes in more donations from their alumni, Education or Engineering? That's where the real money comes in.

[StillAWarrior]

It's a good point, and I think a lot of schools (particularly private schools) might be in for a rude awakening.

I did not even consider a single public school.  Due to the cost disparity, my kids will only go to private schools if we can get a lot of help (merit/need/other).  Further "complicating" matters is that there are some very good public schools in the state and their merit-based scholarships are very competitive.  Miami, for example, gives an automatic 50% tuition reduction for a 32 on the ACT with a 3.5+ -- and quite possibly more.  That brings Miami tuition down to $6,500 or so.   That's very hard to compete with.  Kenyon (a very good private school in Ohio) would have to give a scholarship of nearly $40,000 to bring their cost in line with that.  I've heard they offer a lot of scholarship money, but not that much.  Historically Ohio University (not as strong as Miami or Kenyon) has offered an automatic full-tuition scholarship for 32/3.5, making the cost of attending OU (including R&B) less than a lot of private high schools in Ohio.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yeah but this is all about the math.  The vast, vast majority of people don't pay the list price. 

I would have thought that a bunch of the smaller, liberal arts colleges would have disappeared with the last recession.  But most survived.  A number of poor and rural schools closed.  But for instance there hasn't been a four year school closing in Wisconsin since Mt. Scenario in the late 90s.  (School located in Ladysmith with a focus on educating Native Americans and they lost their main funding source...DeRance Foundation.)  Many of the other little ones (Silver Lake, Mount Mary, Viterbo, Northland, etc.) seem to be doing just fine.

But we'll see...

I guess I'm looking at 10-15 years down the line. College tuition is far exceeding inflation, so while some schools are "okay" for now, I don't think most can continue at the rate they are going.

I personally wouldn't pay 50K to go to Beloit... but obviously some people do. But, what's the breaking point? Can Beloit charge 100K? 200K?

I know that "list price" isn't what most kids pay, but there is no doubt that tuition is going up faster than inflation, and at some point economics are going to play a role in enrollment (for all colleges).

[GGGG]

The real threat to the liberal arts schools are the tech schools and community colleges... MATC and MSOE have been around longer than many liberal arts schools, and not only are their funding sources a little more reliable, but they're slowly moving in on the territory of the liberal arts schools in their course and curricula offerings.  It's not long before every community college is offering the same bachelor programs as the Lawrences, Cardinal Stritches and Concordias of the world.

You do know that MSOE is a four year school right?  With majors beyond engineering.

[🏀]

You do know that MSOE is a four year school right?  With majors beyond engineering.

They had to add Nursing to try and get some poon to enroll there.

[GGGG]

I wonder how many of these very small liberal arts schools would disappear almost overnight if the student loans from government ended.

I'm also not sure that schools are interested in dropping "low ROI" majors. To the school, I wonder if these are not the major money makers. Think about it. An engineering major and a history major pay the same tuition, but how much more does it cost to pay the engineering prof and to build a brand new engineering building, versus having the history major take all his classes in Weir Chemistry or whatever.

Stupid majors are money makers for universities.

Well a couple of things....

As someone who majored in history, I never thought my major was "stupid" and simply a "money maker" for Marquette.  I have a son who is majoring in Art, granted not at a private school, and neither my wife nor I view his major as "stupid."  So I would watch it with the judgemental language about what majors are worthy and which aren't.  You can make a living doing all sorts of stuff with all sorts of academic backgrounds.

As as far limiting student loans.  Well good luck with that.  I would argue that incurring $40,000 in debt is worth it *for most students* when considering the alternative such as entering the workforce with a HS education.  You want to talk ROI take a look at this chart.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

The average individual with a bachelor's degree makes $450 week more than with a high school diploma.  That's $23,000 a year.  That means in essentially two years, the average person with a BA has already had a positive return on investment on $40,000 in student loans.

And you want that to be cut off or curtailed?  I don't think college should only be accessible to those who can write a check for it.

[Coleman]

Well a couple of things....

As someone who majored in history, I never thought my major was "stupid" and simply a "money maker" for Marquette.  I have a son who is majoring in Art, granted not at a private school, and neither my wife nor I view his major as "stupid."  So I would watch it with the judgemental language about what majors are worthy and which aren't.  You can make a living doing all sorts of stuff with all sorts of academic backgrounds.

As as far limiting student loans.  Well good luck with that.  I would argue that incurring $40,000 in debt is worth it *for most students* when considering the alternative such as entering the workforce with a HS education.  You want to talk ROI take a look at this chart.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

The average individual with a bachelor's degree makes $450 week more than with a high school diploma.  That's $23,000 a year.  That means in essentially two years, the average person with a BA has already had a positive return on investment on $40,000 in student loans.

And you want that to be cut off or curtailed?  I don't think college should only be accessible to those who can write a check for it.

Add me to the list of people who majored in history, don't regret it, and are doing just fine. I think Chicos falls into that category as well.

I can compose an email better than 90% of the people in my company. I credit that to my liberal arts background.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Well a couple of things....

As someone who majored in history, I never thought my major was "stupid" and simply a "money maker" for Marquette.  I have a son who is majoring in Art, granted not at a private school, and neither my wife nor I view his major as "stupid."  So I would watch it with the judgemental language about what majors are worthy and which aren't.  You can make a living doing all sorts of stuff with all sorts of academic backgrounds.

As as far limiting student loans.  Well good luck with that.  I would argue that incurring $40,000 in debt is worth it *for most students* when considering the alternative such as entering the workforce with a HS education.  You want to talk ROI take a look at this chart.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

The average individual with a bachelor's degree makes $450 week more than with a high school diploma.  That's $23,000 a year.  That means in essentially two years, the average person with a BA has already had a positive return on investment on $40,000 in student loans.

And you want that to be cut off or curtailed?  I don't think college should only be accessible to those who can write a check for it.

Sorry to offend. Two of my majors were political science and international affairs. Complete waste of time. And I say that having loved every professor I had in both areas. It did not make sense to incur debt for those majors.

Subsidies raise the cost of everything. Just look at ethanol and gas prices. You reduce the availability of cheap loans and if fewer students can afford $50 grand for Beloit, Beloit is going to have to drastically cut down on costs in order to survive. Everyone wins except educational bureaucracies.

[Benny B]

You do know that MSOE is a four year school right?  With majors beyond engineering.

That's why I alluded to them already moving in on "liberal arts territory."

[Spotcheck Billy]

Will MSOE eventually have to change the name to Milw. School of Education?