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Author Topic: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA  (Read 41402 times)

Aughnanure

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“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

Groin_pull

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 01:13:09 PM »
Looks like the "power" conferences want some special treatment.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24532563/autonomy-defined-ncaa-boards-agenda-for-change-this-week

Seems like they already get plenty of special treatment.

brandx

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2014, 01:54:44 PM »
Sounds like they (Big 5 conferences) are offering everything the players would want from a union. Too bad they couldn't have done it without being threatened first.

GGGG

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 01:55:48 PM »
I love these ideas frankly, and I hope the BE schools take the step to join this group.

Sunbelt15

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 02:04:41 PM »
I love these ideas frankly, and I hope the BE schools take the step to join this group.

Just think, if this would have happen three years earlier, the BE would have been included automatically. Damn!

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2014, 02:15:02 PM »
This would really be devastating to UCONN - as they would A) be left out from the big boy table (SEC, BIG, Big XII, PAC-12, ACC), B) not be able to spend the same on athletic stipends as them and C) not be able to play any of the P5 (as it sounds they just want to play each other).

Would they be, effectively, forced to drop down football in order to protect their basketball program?  I would have to imagine the Big East would be thrilled to get them back in the fold.

The Equalizer

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2014, 02:17:24 PM »
I love these ideas frankly, and I hope the BE schools take the step to join this group.

You hope they launch football programs? Because that's the only way the BE schools would ever join this group--and even then they might not be accepted.


MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2014, 02:21:16 PM »
This would really be devastating to UCONN - as they would A) be left out from the big boy table (SEC, BIG, Big XII, PAC-12, ACC), B) not be able to spend the same on athletic stipends as them and C) not be able to play any of the P5 (as it sounds they just want to play each other).

Would they be, effectively, forced to drop down football in order to protect their basketball program?  I would have to imagine the Big East would be thrilled to get them back in the fold.

I read it differently.  I read it as setting a $ floor for NCAA membership, but permissable to spend more $ up to a set amount determined by those at the big boy table.  Meaning they planned to spend the Big Boy amount and everyone else well would have a choice whether to spend the same or stick to the min.  

GGGG

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 02:22:26 PM »
You hope they launch football programs? Because that's the only way the BE schools would ever join this group--and even then they might not be accepted.


You aren't reading it correctly.  This group isn't breaking away from D1.  They are asking permission to offer higher value scholarships, have agent involvement, etc.  If other schools want to join them, that is fine.  (But my guess is that it is a conference based decision.)

For instance, here is a quote from the article, including a comment.  It specifically says that anything adopted by this group "may also be adopted by the rest of Division I at each institution's respective discretion, or as determined by its conference."

Permissive legislation -- Designed to allow permissive use of resources by any member to advance the legitimate educational or athletics-related needs of student-athletes. Under this proposed governance model, permissive legislation that is developed and adopted among these institutions and conferences may also be adopted by the rest of Division I at each institution's respective discretion, or as determined by its conference.

Comment: "Permissive" is a key code word here. NCAA officials have chosen it instead of "optional." If Idaho can't afford the full cost of attendance, then that's fine. A lot of this legislation will be optional. The thinking being, that if Idaho (just an example) can't afford a $6,000 cost of attendance bump like Ohio State, that's OK. That doesn't affect how they compete on the field.

GGGG

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2014, 02:23:11 PM »
I read it differently.  I read it as setting a $ floor for NCAA membership, but permissable to spend more $ up to a set amount determined by those at the big boy table.  Meaning they planned to spend the Big Boy amount and everyone else well would have a choice whether to spend the same or stick to the min. 

That is *exactly* what it says and you said it better than I did.

TJ

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 02:31:27 PM »
This looks very promising.  I'm hoping that meaningful positive reform comes from it and all of the nastiness can be left behind.  The only reason the "litigious environment" exists is because the NCAA has thus far been clinging to the status quo.  It's refreshing to see an institution try to proactively address the challenges facing them.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2014, 02:56:34 PM »
This looks very promising.  I'm hoping that meaningful positive reform comes from it and all of the nastiness can be left behind.  The only reason the "litigious environment" exists is because the universities that make up the membership NCAA has tried to keep the playing field even thus far been clinging to the status quoThis will create a larger gap of the haves and the have nots as many schools that currently are capable of playing along with the big boys will be bypassed by recruits as the playing field is tilted further.  It's refreshing to see an institution try to proactively address the challenges facing them.  Be careful what you wish for


I fixed it for you

MUSF

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 04:16:47 PM »
Just think, if this would have happen three years earlier, the BE would have been included automatically. Damn!

Nope, there's no way the BE gets included on that list with the albatross of small bball only schools hanging around their neck.

ThatDude

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 04:32:37 PM »
Nope, there's no way the BE gets included on that list with the albatross of small bball only schools hanging around their neck.

+100

Its all about football

TJ

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 05:07:00 PM »


I fixed it for you
No, you fixed it for you.

And let me just say, we've all heard you repeatedly say that the NCAA = the institutions that comprise the NCAA.  You can stop telling us every time.  From now on, please assume that any time I use the term NCAA I am referring to "the universities that make up the membership".  Thank you

Benny B

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2014, 05:10:09 PM »
+100

Its all about football

Actually, TV contracts are all about football.  Autonomy has nothing to do with TV contracts.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

77ncaachamps

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 05:26:04 PM »
Capitalism!

Gotta love it!
SS Marquette

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2014, 07:44:58 PM »
No, you fixed it for you.

And let me just say, we've all heard you repeatedly say that the NCAA = the institutions that comprise the NCAA.  You can stop telling us every time.  From now on, please assume that any time I use the term NCAA I am referring to "the universities that make up the membership".  Thank you

In your case, I will....unfortunately you can tell by the context in which others use the NCAA here they have zero clue what the institution is or how it works. 

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 07:46:14 PM »
Capitalism!

Gotta love it!

Capitalism is great for many things....not so great for sports.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2014, 08:24:15 PM »
Capitalism is great for many things....not so great for sports.

Why not?  What do you think sports are trying to accomplish?

Dawson Rental

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 08:34:16 PM »
Capitalism is great for many things....not so great for sports.

Then the BCS conferences should not have embraced it so completely.  All through the conference realignments, I said that the BCS schools were setting themselves up for much increased costs as they made a grab for more and more increases in revenue.  These five conferences seem to think that if they get in front of it they can limit increases in the costs of maintaining student-athletes.  I believe that they are mistaken.  We shall see.  As the revenues increase, the expectations of the student-athletes (not my term) will increase, and very likely public sentiment for the student-athlete, as well. 
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2014, 09:59:31 PM »
Why not?  What do you think sports are trying to accomplish?

The chance to compete and win.  In business, you compete and win or you go out of business.  In sports, you compete and if you can't win you still field a team year after year after year but with few prospects of winning because of the inherent advantages that teams in bigger markets, better television deals, etc will have.

Depends what you want out of sports.  Personally, I think the NFL is #1 sport in this country because it treats tiny little Green Bay the same as the New York Giants.  Everyone has the same amount of money, now draft wisely, use your money wisely, prove you are the best by given the same pool of resources and it will make the league better.

Not the case for business because that stifles innovation, etc, but with sports...yes.  IMO.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2014, 10:04:30 PM »
Then the BCS conferences should not have embraced it so completely.  All through the conference realignments, I said that the BCS schools were setting themselves up for much increased costs as they made a grab for more and more increases in revenue.  These five conferences seem to think that if they get in front of it they can limit increases in the costs of maintaining student-athletes.  I believe that they are mistaken.  We shall see.  As the revenues increase, the expectations of the student-athletes (not my term) will increase, and very likely public sentiment for the student-athlete, as well. 

I'm not sure I agree with your opinion on why these conferences are embracing it.  In my view they know they have the resources to spend and don't want the smaller, have nots telling them they can't in the name of an equal playing field.  So they want the ability to spend more and give that same right to smaller schools knowing full well they can't.  This way they don't come off as the "bad guy", but the further separation of the haves vs the have nots will grow.  They know revenues are going to increase because the tv deals have escalators built into them until 2024 in many cases.  That's revenue they know is coming home.

Ultimately, this will create such an imbalance you will likely see a super division or schools in current DI move down.  Unfortunate.

MUSF

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 10:22:40 PM »
Capitalism is great for many things....not so great for sports.

I bet you'd throw up in your mouth if someone made the same argument about healthcare.

Do you have a special Adam Smith decoder ring that tells you when capitalism is good and when it's bad?

In all seriousness, I actually agree with you. I think this would suck for competitive balance, but like the NCAA issues we debated in another thread, I think changes like this are inevitable.

Dawson Rental

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 06:20:39 AM »
I'm not sure I agree with your opinion on why these conferences are embracing it.  In my view they know they have the resources to spend and don't want the smaller, have nots telling them they can't in the name of an equal playing field.  So they want the ability to spend more and give that same right to smaller schools knowing full well they can't.  This way they don't come off as the "bad guy", but the further separation of the haves vs the have nots will grow.  They know revenues are going to increase because the tv deals have escalators built into them until 2024 in many cases.  That's revenue they know is coming home.

Ultimately, this will create such an imbalance you will likely see a super division or schools in current DI move down.  Unfortunate.

If I read you correctly, you don't disagree that the big 5 conferences are the ones doing the actual embracing of capitalism, you just feel that they are doing so for a different reason than I stated; they are not so much attempting to increase revenue (since such increases are already assured), as they are maneuvering to get the ability to spend more of that revenue to further distance themselves competitively from other schools.  You are not in favor of this disparity, thus your statement that capitalism is "not so great" for sports.

I am curious about the escalators built into the TV deals.  Are they automatic or are they dependent on increases in carriage rates or %s, or increases in eyeballs?
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 08:49:04 AM »
I bet you'd throw up in your mouth if someone made the same argument about healthcare.

Do you have a special Adam Smith decoder ring that tells you when capitalism is good and when it's bad?

In all seriousness, I actually agree with you. I think this would suck for competitive balance, but like the NCAA issues we debated in another thread, I think changes like this are inevitable.

Healthcare is open to anyone, don't confuse that with healthcare insurance.

I just use common sense, plus I rely on people like my sister-in-law from Canada that explains some of the pros and cons of such a system.  She moved to the USA, when she needed lasek done, she went back to Canada.  When she has had to do anything important, she does it here and for good reason.

Changes may be inevitable, but that doesn't mean change is good especially for schools like MU.  Change is often the result of the powerful trying to change to make them even more powerful.  People that think some of these changes are great are going to come back in 5 to 10 years and look at the smoldering crater and ask what happened.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 09:15:33 AM »
If I read you correctly, you don't disagree that the big 5 conferences are the ones doing the actual embracing of capitalism, you just feel that they are doing so for a different reason than I stated; they are not so much attempting to increase revenue (since such increases are already assured), as they are maneuvering to get the ability to spend more of that revenue to further distance themselves competitively from other schools.  You are not in favor of this disparity, thus your statement that capitalism is "not so great" for sports.

I am curious about the escalators built into the TV deals.  Are they automatic or are they dependent on increases in carriage rates or %s, or increases in eyeballs?

Yes, that is what I am saying.  I much prefer a more balanced playing field without stacking the deck.  It is impossible to make it perfectly balanced, though more levers exist in pro sports (the draft) than in college.  Some schools will always have advantages due to size, climate, local \ in state talent, etc.  What can be controlled to some extent are the rules, the dollars attached, etc.  The proposed changes basically will allow some schools to yield their financial might to the point that other schools simply cannot stay in the chase.  This will result in fewer recruits that choose some of those smaller schools today.

On your tv deal question, the escalators are automatic.  However, they are tied to per subscriber counts.  So so though the per sub rate will increase every year (say 3% to 5%), the total nut doesn't necessarily have to.  If enough subscribers downgrade into a package where that channel is available or leave tv entirely to offset those rate increases, then the revenue wouldn't be there.  For now, that isn't happening and the models that are out that both the channels and tv providers do independently of one another show that isn't the case either.  Not in that time frame anyway.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2014, 11:00:50 AM »
Some of the ideas make sense. The example of the Minnesota wrestler losing his eligibility because he used his name on some music he was making is ridiculous. But if all 65 BCS schools are for this rule change, wouldn't it be pretty easy to change the rule within the NCAA? I honestly don't understand how the NCAA works. This seems like a pretty large voting block, I'd imagine they'd be able to summon up the votes to get this thing passed. Am I missing something?

The "permissable" legislation worries me. It seems like a nice way of saying that "we want the rich to be able to spend more than the poor schools." What little competitive balance remains in college athletics will be destroyed. The same core group of 20-30 schools will dominate every single year in their respective marquis sport.

Would MU benefit from this? We already spend more than most basketball programs, wouldn't this in theory allow us to spend even more?

Also, how does Title IX play into this? If the BCS schools are going to start increasing spending on their men's sports, wouldn't they have to equally spend on women's sports? It may keep them from spending as much as we think.
TAMU

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brandx

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2014, 11:17:31 AM »
Some of the ideas make sense. The example of the Minnesota wrestler losing his eligibility because he used his name on some music he was making is ridiculous. ?

The "permissable" legislation worries me. It seems like a nice way of saying that "we want the rich to be able to spend more than the poor schools." What little competitive balance remains in college athletics will be destroyed. The same core group of 20-30 schools will dominate every single year in their respective marquis sport.
But if all 65 BCS schools are for this rule change, wouldn't it be pretty easy to change the rule within the NCAA? I honestly don't understand how the NCAA works. This seems like a pretty large voting block, I'd imagine they'd be able to summon up the votes to get this thing passed. Am I missing something
Would MU benefit from this? We already spend more than most basketball programs, wouldn't this in theory allow us to spend even more?

Also, how does Title IX play into this? If the BCS schools are going to start increasing spending on their men's sports, wouldn't they have to equally spend on women's sports? It may keep them from spending as much as we think.

Of course, they could affect that change within the confines of the NCAA, but that is not what these conferences want to do. They want to be separate from the "lower" schools. As always, just follow the $$$.

Paying players doesn't bother these schools at all. They have money trees in their backyards. The costs will be passed on and the schools will make even more $$$.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2014, 11:40:50 AM »
Of course, they could affect that change within the confines of the NCAA, but that is not what these conferences want to do. They want to be separate from the "lower" schools. As always, just follow the $$$.

Paying players doesn't bother these schools at all. They have money trees in their backyards. The costs will be passed on and the schools will make even more $$$.

I didn't read these demands as a separation. They want the autonomy to make certain decisions themselves. They want to stay in the NCAA but want some of the NCAA's powers. Kind of like the state governments wanting to take some of the federal government's powers
TAMU

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brandx

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 12:09:40 PM »
I didn't read these demands as a separation. They want the autonomy to make certain decisions themselves. They want to stay in the NCAA but want some of the NCAA's powers. Kind of like the state governments wanting to take some of the federal government's powers

Maybe separation was the wrong word - but I look at autonomy as a type of separation. Meaning they will do what they want to do and the other schools can follow suit or not. The big schools don't really care.

The Equalizer

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 12:45:11 PM »
Maybe separation was the wrong word - but I look at autonomy as a type of separation. Meaning they will do what they want to do and the other schools can follow suit or not. The big schools don't really care.

Oh, they absolutely care.   They don't want the smaller schools to follow suit.

Think about it.  Right now, the big schools have to share a $10.8 Billion contract for NCAA basketball among 345 D1 teams.

Their underlying thought is that they can separate from the low-majors of the NCAA, they can get that same money, but only have to split it 65 ways. 

The way they weed out the bottom feeders is to make it cost prohibitive for them to compete.

Aughnanure

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 01:31:48 PM »
Oh, they absolutely care.   They don't want the smaller schools to follow suit.

Think about it.  Right now, the big schools have to share a $10.8 Billion contract for NCAA basketball among 345 D1 teams.

Their underlying thought is that they can separate from the low-majors of the NCAA, they can get that same money, but only have to split it 65 ways. 

The way they weed out the bottom feeders is to make it cost prohibitive for them to compete.


If they restrict it to 65 teams, there  won't be a $10 billion contract to split. If they kill March Madness they will never get it back.
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

brandx

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 01:34:57 PM »
If they restrict it to 65 teams, there  won't be a $10 billion contract to split. If they kill March Madness they will never get it back.

Absolutely correct

Benny B

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 01:56:03 PM »
Oh, they absolutely care.   They don't want the smaller schools to follow suit.

Think about it.  Right now, the big schools have to share a $10.8 Billion contract for NCAA basketball among 345 D1 teams.

Their underlying thought is that they can separate from the low-majors of the NCAA, they can get that same money, but only have to split it 65 ways. 

The way they weed out the bottom feeders is to make it cost prohibitive for them to compete.


How about the internet?  The internet has lots of money.  Let's get some of that internet money.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 02:12:26 PM »
How about the internet?  The internet has lots of money.  Let's get some of that internet money.

bitcoins anyone?

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2014, 02:20:52 PM »
If they restrict it to 65 teams, there  won't be a $10 billion contract to split. If they kill March Madness they will never get it back.


They don't have to.  You guys are thinking about it incorrectly.

If they get special exceptions to spend more per student athlete, etc, etc it will likely yield better recruits, better teams.  Those that compete today with those schools, will have a harder time to do so.  As a result, what happens?  Well, instead of the Big 5 conferences getting 28 bids like they got this year, maybe that number becomes 35 or 37 (depending on expansion).  They can't get them all because of auto qualifiers, but they can eat up a ton more.  Those that aren't in the power leagues that still manage to get to the NCAA, weaker than ever have even less chance to advance far because they cannot out recruit those that have the special privilege to spend more dollars since they have the means to do so.

They won't kill the contract, they don't have to.  That contract does, however, have an end date.


Be careful what you wish for gents, some of you just might get it.

mu03eng

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2014, 02:44:55 PM »

They don't have to.  You guys are thinking about it incorrectly.

If they get special exceptions to spend more per student athlete, etc, etc it will likely yield better recruits, better teams.  Those that compete today with those schools, will have a harder time to do so.  As a result, what happens?  Well, instead of the Big 5 conferences getting 28 bids like they got this year, maybe that number becomes 35 or 37 (depending on expansion).  They can't get them all because of auto qualifiers, but they can eat up a ton more.  Those that aren't in the power leagues that still manage to get to the NCAA, weaker than ever have even less chance to advance far because they cannot out recruit those that have the special privilege to spend more dollars since they have the means to do so.

They won't kill the contract, they don't have to.  That contract does, however, have an end date.


Be careful what you wish for gents, some of you just might get it.

You say this as if more "money" means a better product.  The "haves" already have a ton of competitive advantages over the "have nots", it's not like this is going to swing the pendulum that much further.  Also when it comes to the committee they are still going to take a small school with a better record and/or better RPI than a money school with a lesser resume.

For your scenario to make sense you would have to see a concentration of talent at the have schools that has been going the opposite direction in the last 10 years.  Basically you are saying that this plan would give the have schools to get all the talent, I just don't think that's realistic.  Again if more money produced a better product we'd all be driving DeLoreans
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2014, 03:09:00 PM »
You say this as if more "money" means a better product.  The "haves" already have a ton of competitive advantages over the "have nots", it's not like this is going to swing the pendulum that much further.  Also when it comes to the committee they are still going to take a small school with a better record and/or better RPI than a money school with a lesser resume.

For your scenario to make sense you would have to see a concentration of talent at the have schools that has been going the opposite direction in the last 10 years.  Basically you are saying that this plan would give the have schools to get all the talent, I just don't think that's realistic.  Again if more money produced a better product we'd all be driving DeLoreans

More money definitely doesn't always mean a better product...see schools in the United States.

However, this is about recruitment of talent, not building a better widget.  If school A can now suddenly offer an extra $7K in value directly to a school vs school B, does School A have a better shot to get that recruit?  Not always, but I suspect the data will show a lean in that direction.

The haves do have a competitive advantage, but not in this specific area.  That's the main difference. If you marginalize the schools that have helped to spread that talent around to other schools it means it has to go somewhere, right?  Presumably back to those have programs.  There will be a built in separation.  It doesn't mean MU or Creighton elect not to participate, they probably do.  Your next level of schools (Indiana State, Western Michigan, Eastern Illinois, etc) can't play in that game.  They start to drop further as more talent accrues with the haves, the next rung has to go deeper to get their recruits, so on and so forth. 

Just my opinion, but in my experiences with recruiting and what makes kids pick one school over another, this kind of stuff will matter.

Nukem2

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 03:17:17 PM »
More money definitely doesn't always mean a better product...see schools in the United States.

However, this is about recruitment of talent, not building a better widget.  If school A can now suddenly offer an extra $7K in value directly to a school vs school B, does School A have a better shot to get that recruit?  Not always, but I suspect the data will show a lean in that direction.

The haves do have a competitive advantage, but not in this specific area.  That's the main difference. If you marginalize the schools that have helped to spread that talent around to other schools it means it has to go somewhere, right?  Presumably back to those have programs.  There will be a built in separation.  It doesn't mean MU or Creighton elect not to participate, they probably do.  Your next level of schools (Indiana State, Western Michigan, Eastern Illinois, etc) can't play in that game.  They start to drop further as more talent accrues with the haves, the next rung has to go deeper to get their recruits, so on and so forth. 

Just my opinion, but in my experiences with recruiting and what makes kids pick one school over another, this kind of stuff will matter.
Agree.  Leagues beyond the BE, AAC and maybe the A10 and Mtn West are just going to be further behind in recruiting. 

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2014, 03:28:16 PM »
They already are. There are a limited number of slots available and the big schools are already filling their needs.

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2014, 04:14:41 PM »
They already are. There are a limited number of slots available and the big schools are already filling their needs.
But the Texas Tech's, Northwesterns, ole Miss, Penn States, etc are gonna gobble up the better ones they are not getting now.

brandx

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2014, 04:28:42 PM »

They don't have to.  You guys are thinking about it incorrectly.

If they get special exceptions to spend more per student athlete, etc, etc it will likely yield better recruits, better teams.  Those that compete today with those schools, will have a harder time to do so.  As a result, what happens?  Well, instead of the Big 5 conferences getting 28 bids like they got this year, maybe that number becomes 35 or 37 (depending on expansion).  They can't get them all because of auto qualifiers, but they can eat up a ton more.  Those that aren't in the power leagues that still manage to get to the NCAA, weaker than ever have even less chance to advance far because they cannot out recruit those that have the special privilege to spend more dollars since they have the means to do so.

They won't kill the contract, they don't have to.  That contract does, however, have an end date.


Be careful what you wish for gents, some of you just might get it.

Change is good, Chicos! Don't be afraid of it 8-)

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2014, 04:29:05 PM »
But the Texas Tech's, Northwesterns, ole Miss, Penn States, etc are gonna gobble up the better ones they are not getting now.

Again, assuming a migration in talent.  I don't know that there will be enough that the talent will migrate.  
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mu03eng

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2014, 04:29:19 PM »
Change is good, Chicos! Don't be afraid of it 8-)

There is profit in chaos
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brandx

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2014, 05:57:36 PM »
But the Texas Tech's, Northwesterns, ole Miss, Penn States, etc are gonna gobble up the better ones they are not getting now.

Penn State never had a problem getting great recruiting classes until the scandal. Northwestern was limited by Academics.

Most good players from mid-majors or small schools that get drafted by the NFL are there not because the smaller school out-recruited the big guys - but because those players weren't sought after by the big schools. Some players physically develop later than others.


mu03eng

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2014, 08:01:21 PM »
Penn State never had a problem getting great recruiting classes until the scandal. Northwestern was limited by Academics.

Most good players from mid-majors or small schools that get drafted by the NFL are there not because the smaller school out-recruited the big guys - but because those players weren't sought after by the big schools. Some players physically develop later than others.



Penn State basketball has been terrible for years, they've never had a "good" recruiting class.  And the scandal was football and had nothing to with the basketball program.  And Penn State football currently has a top 5 recruiting class in football....but other than that I think you're spot on  ;D ;)
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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2014, 08:30:14 PM »
Penn State basketball has been terrible for years, they've never had a "good" recruiting class.  And the scandal was football and had nothing to with the basketball program.  And Penn State football currently has a top 5 recruiting class in football....but other than that I think you're spot on  ;D ;)

Cuz you never could have guessed I was talking about football ::)

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2014, 09:06:31 AM »

mu03eng

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2014, 09:16:35 AM »
Cuz you never could have guessed I was talking about football ::)

Yeah, but then what was your point, you were wrong talking about Penn State football recruiting.  They have never fallen out of the top 30 in recruiting classes in the last 5 years and you have to go back to the dark days of Paterno (1999-2003) to find a recruiting class lower than 30.

I think we agree that this won't separate the haves and have nots more....I'm just not sure what your point was in making the statement to prove it.
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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2014, 09:47:18 AM »
At this time its for the big 5 conferences only
http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/2014/04/24/sec-acc-big-big-ten-pac-get/8135289/


"The board is still trying to determine how, or if, smaller leagues will be allowed to implement measures passed under the “autonomy” provisions."

It will happen.

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2014, 09:49:12 AM »
Yep, it will happen or the smaller conferences will operate outside the NCAA and that would blow up the tourni $

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2014, 09:55:25 AM »
Yep, it will happen or the smaller conferences will operate outside the NCAA and that would blow up the tourni $


The smaller conferences are going along with this so the larger conferences don't leave.

Benny B

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2014, 10:17:23 AM »
I would think the smaller conferences know they have less to lose than the big conferences when it comes to the prospect of the big schools leaving, because the big conferences already know it.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2014, 10:21:13 AM »
I would think the smaller conferences know they have less to lose than the big conferences when it comes to the prospect of the big schools leaving, because the big conferences already know it.


If the absolute worst happens, and the Power 5 schools leave the NCAA, who do you think then makes more money on their post season basketball tournament?  Especially on a "per school" basis?

Not the 27 smaller conferences.

mu03eng

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2014, 10:27:08 AM »

If the absolute worst happens, and the Power 5 schools leave the NCAA, who do you think then makes more money on their post season basketball tournament?  Especially on a "per school" basis?

Not the 27 smaller conferences.

And this is exactly why this is happening.  The big conferences have the leverage so they are playing it to try and get more leverage and more money.  The small schools either have to accept this and potentially become less competitive or risk having the whole system blow and become really less competitive.

The big schools should be careful though, their power is not without limits.  Look at the public's disdain for tax funding for stadiums, they are not blind sheep.  If things are too dramatically changed there is risk of the public turning on the product reducing it's value.
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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2014, 12:23:59 PM »

If the absolute worst happens, and the Power 5 schools leave the NCAA, who do you think then makes more money on their post season basketball tournament?  Especially on a "per school" basis?

Not the 27 smaller conferences.

I didn't say the smaller conferences would be better off; I merely said the big conferences have more to lose.  To clarify, I'm not speaking about just the basketball tournament, but sure, take that example.  134 tournament shares in a (roughly) $200M pool this year... how many shares went to the Power conferences?  100?  So they get 75% of a $200M tourney pool this year - or $150M.  Say they now break away and eliminate 80% of the potential tournament participants... does everyone make the tournament, or do you reduce the field to 16 teams so as to not offer a diluted product.

You tell me.... do you think the Power 5 is going to get a $150M annual contract for a post-season basketball tournament that features about a fifth of the games, no Cinderellas, and sexy match-ups like Rutgers vs. Virginia Tech?

EDIT:  And don't forget about the damn mouse who controls everything.  Who televises all of those mid and low major conference tournaments/championships - just how watchable will they be once the Power 5 goes away?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:26:41 PM by Benny B »
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

mu03eng

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Re: ACC, B1G, Big 12, PAC, SEC Want Autonomy From NCAA
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2014, 04:27:35 PM »
I didn't say the smaller conferences would be better off; I merely said the big conferences have more to lose.  To clarify, I'm not speaking about just the basketball tournament, but sure, take that example.  134 tournament shares in a (roughly) $200M pool this year... how many shares went to the Power conferences?  100?  So they get 75% of a $200M tourney pool this year - or $150M.  Say they now break away and eliminate 80% of the potential tournament participants... does everyone make the tournament, or do you reduce the field to 16 teams so as to not offer a diluted product.

You tell me.... do you think the Power 5 is going to get a $150M annual contract for a post-season basketball tournament that features about a fifth of the games, no Cinderellas, and sexy match-ups like Rutgers vs. Virginia Tech?

EDIT:  And don't forget about the damn mouse who controls everything.  Who televises all of those mid and low major conference tournaments/championships - just how watchable will they be once the Power 5 goes away?

Don't forget though we're in a content starved era....the littles have way more of a shot to get on tv now more than ever
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

 

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