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Author Topic: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday  (Read 158815 times)

mr.MUskie

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 02:48:15 PM »
Sounds like Castiglione is doing a great job guiding the OU sports programs. He should be rewarded for at the highest level in his profession. It would be a refreshing change to watch a Marquette AD register such results rather than being upset about the cheers being used by students who are supporting their team.

Rather than criticize Castiglione I would ask what will it take to poach him from OU to MU?

Castiglione to MU.  #DoneDeal
It's happening!

Windyplayer

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 02:51:22 PM »
I think people tend to overlook that the ruling by the regional director of the NLRB is going to be appealed and it will be heard by the full panel in D.C. Then if Northwestern officials still don't get the answer they're looking for, the case will end up in federal courts where it will likely be heard by the U.S. Supreme Court given the potential ramifications. Point being, there is still a LONG way to go before we can definitively say that college athletes are "employees" legally speaking.

I'm not holding my breath that the regional diretor's decision will make it through the appeals. That being said, it's kind of interesting that NU players are already voting on whether to unionize when the employee determination is far from settled.


ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2014, 02:56:50 PM »
Castiglione to MU.  #DoneDeal
It's happening!

I hope not, he is not what I would deem a great guy, but that's just my opinion. 

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2014, 05:12:01 PM »
I hope not, he is not what I would deem a great guy, but that's just my opinion. 

Never met the man, but have interacted with several of his underlings in the Oklahoma Athletic Department. Not a fan.
TAMU

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ChicosBailBonds

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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 05:14:35 PM »
Never met the man, but have interacted with several of his underlings in the Oklahoma Athletic Department. Not a fan.

I've met him several times....not a fan.

brandx

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 05:52:29 PM »
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140424/northwestern-wildcats-union-vote-nlrb-ruling/



This would have been fascinating watching the maneuvering and the outcomes both in voting (if it lost at Northwestern, it would come up again somewhere else) and in court.

This was going to be much different than a typical union - would have been closer to a Players' Association as in Professional sports. These are not adults with families to support and mouths to feed that are demanding a living wage. They are looking for minimal improvements. Safety and the full cost of their education. They don't want to worry whether the Bagel they are eating is a violation of NCAA rules. They would like their families to be able to enjoy the fruition of their work if they make it to the final 4. Etc., Etc.

But I think the moves this week by the Big 5 conferences AND the NCAA really rendered what would have been a monumental vote pretty meaningless.


ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 07:42:21 PM »
This would have been fascinating watching the maneuvering and the outcomes both in voting (if it lost at Northwestern, it would come up again somewhere else) and in court.

This was going to be much different than a typical union - would have been closer to a Players' Association as in Professional sports. These are not adults with families to support and mouths to feed that are demanding a living wage. They are looking for minimal improvements. Safety and the full cost of their education. They don't want to worry whether the Bagel they are eating is a violation of NCAA rules. They would like their families to be able to enjoy the fruition of their work if they make it to the final 4. Etc., Etc.

But I think the moves this week by the Big 5 conferences AND the NCAA really rendered what would have been a monumental vote pretty meaningless.



In my view, aside from what has happened in the last week or so, the NW players were going to vote this down. My biggest peeve on this is the NW football players, for the vast majority of them feel they are treated well, treated right and have no complaints.  You see this with multiple interviews of these student athletes.

At the end of the day the folks pushing this (those actually that are NOT NW football players any longer or ever) wanted them to be categorized as employees and that's the biggest issue in all of this.  That goal or declaration by those pushing the unionization efforts elevates things entirely. 

Some of these outside forces with various intentions used these kids to push an agenda in my opinion, some less nefarious than others.  There are some reforms that are worthwhile, should be pursued, enacted in a proper way.  There are others that are problematic for many reasons and open up a pandora's box from hell.



Honestly

brandx

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 08:38:57 PM »
In my view, aside from what has happened in the last week or so, the NW players were going to vote this down. My biggest peeve on this is the NW football players, for the vast majority of them feel they are treated well, treated right and have no complaints.  You see this with multiple interviews of these student athletes.

At the end of the day the folks pushing this (those actually that are NOT NW football players any longer or ever) wanted them to be categorized as employees and that's the biggest issue in all of this.  That goal or declaration by those pushing the unionization efforts elevates things entirely. 

Some of these outside forces with various intentions used these kids to push an agenda in my opinion, some less nefarious than others.  There are some reforms that are worthwhile, should be pursued, enacted in a proper way.  There are others that are problematic for many reasons and open up a pandora's box from hell.
Honestly

I think that most student-athletes (including at Northwestern) feel they are treated pretty well. This entire thing is not really about them feeling that they aren't. It is just about a couple areas where the NCAA has been totally unreasonable. That is why we are seeing changes proposed by the NCAA. It is something that should have been done decades ago but is only being pushed to the forefront because of the actions in Evanston.

I still remember Al decrying the NCAA rules when he was at MU. It broke his heart that Earl Tatum, who grew up in abject poverty, had to live under some of the NCAA rules while at MU. This was a great, hard-working kid who had nothing, who couldn't even afford to go out and have a burger with his friends. Who couldn't go home for Christmas to see his family. Why? Just because the NCAA said so.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2014, 09:59:06 PM »
I think that most student-athletes (including at Northwestern) feel they are treated pretty well. This entire thing is not really about them feeling that they aren't. It is just about a couple areas where the NCAA has been totally unreasonable. That is why we are seeing changes proposed by the NCAA. It is something that should have been done decades ago but is only being pushed to the forefront because of the actions in Evanston.

I still remember Al decrying the NCAA rules when he was at MU. It broke his heart that Earl Tatum, who grew up in abject poverty, had to live under some of the NCAA rules while at MU. This was a great, hard-working kid who had nothing, who couldn't even afford to go out and have a burger with his friends. Who couldn't go home for Christmas to see his family. Why? Just because the NCAA said so.

I'm sure Al also understood the massive Pandora's box that opens if those rules aren't in place, of course that didn't stop Earl or others from getting that burger.   ;)

Those rules are in place because of massive abuse in the past.  No different than the massive scamming of disability of US taxpayers or car insurance scams, etc.  Too many people that aren't honest, scam like crazy and it creates an uneven playing field. So rules get put into place. Sure, it sucks for someone in that position as you describe.  The problem is that Jock U. decides all 85 football players are in that boat, all 13 basketball players and enough money to get 10 hamburgers a night.  If the abuse wasn't there, the rules wouldn't be either.  People can't be honest...shame.

keefe

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2014, 10:22:53 PM »
have a burger

Hey, wait just one minute! That's Bert's line!


Death on call

MUSF

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2014, 12:25:04 AM »
It's not indefinite, you can't give and give and give and give, but then again unions have refused to learn that lesson for a 100 years to their detriment.  

It's also something corporations and business owners didn't learn until workers formed unions after 100 years of taking it in the backside.

There's clearly a balance that needs to be worked out by both sides. Right now the scale is tipped heavily in favor of the schools. Hopefully, initiatives by the players won't tip it too far the other way, and hopefully the schools don't stick their heads in the sand.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2014, 06:17:10 AM »
In my view, aside from what has happened in the last week or so, the NW players were going to vote this down. My biggest peeve on this is the NW football players, for the vast majority of them feel they are treated well, treated right and have no complaints.  You see this with multiple interviews of these student athletes.

At the end of the day the folks pushing this (those actually that are NOT NW football players any longer or ever) wanted them to be categorized as employees and that's the biggest issue in all of this.  That goal or declaration by those pushing the unionization efforts elevates things entirely.  

Some of these outside forces with various intentions used these kids to push an agenda in my opinion, some less nefarious than others.  There are some reforms that are worthwhile, should be pursued, enacted in a proper way.  There are others that are problematic for many reasons and open up a pandora's box from hell.
Honestly

CBB:

If boosters/alumni/schools are willing to throw money at these kids, and if you fear the rules are being set up to allow it to happen legally, then it tells you a scholarship is not enough to "compensate" these recruits.  So why do insist on keeping those kids at an unfair advantage?  Change the rules to allow them to get their worth.  Again this will only be the case for a handful of recruits for the entire sport.

I think at the end of the day, little changes.  If you're a blue chip recruit, you go to Kentucky because Calipari has a proven track record of getting you ready and drafted high into the NBA.  Ditto Cocah K at Duke.

The arms race will be like it is now, between Duke and Kentucky boosters so what changes?  

Jabari Parker is not going to pick Northwestern because JB Pritzker (billionaire benefactor and NU Trustee) is willing to dump a ton of money in his lap.  Jabari will take the long view and understand Duke puts him in the best position for the next level, just like it is now.  

And speaking of billionaire benefactors ...  Phil Knight (Nike Founder) donates zillions to Oregon so they have the best facilities in the world to attract recruits and coaches.  Ditto Boone Pickens at OSU or, to a lesser but still significant extent, Dick Strong with MU.  Why is this moral but giving the kids a couple of bucks the Pandora's box from hell?

It won't corrupt the system, it is now.  The Pandora's box from hell is the current system (which is why I keep saying the NCAA is a broken clusterf**k now).  The changes and potential payment (again potential because no one is arguing for it now) will make things more moral and fair.  And MU will come out a winner in this process.  The M Club can compete with those other schools when it comes to paying recruits.

Benny B

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2014, 08:58:55 AM »
CBB:

If boosters/alumni/schools are willing to throw money at these kids, and if you fear the rules are being set up to allow it to happen legally, then it tells you a scholarship is not enough to "compensate" these recruits.  So why do insist on keeping those kids at an unfair advantage?  Change the rules to allow them to get their worth.  Again this will only be the case for a handful of recruits for the entire sport.

Exactly... because we all know that every kid today - student athlete or not - deserves the newest iPhones, tablets, laptops, home gaming systems, Dre Headphones, $200 jeans, etc.  And those things cost money, yo.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MUSF

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 09:31:12 AM »
Exactly... because we all know that every kid today - student athlete or not - deserves the newest iPhones, tablets, laptops, home gaming systems, Dre Headphones, $200 jeans, etc.  And those things cost money, yo.

It has nothing to do with what they deserve, it's about what they are worth. Does an NBA athlete deserve a $20 million dollar contract? No, but that's his market value in the multibillion dollar industry of professional basketball.

School teachers "deserve" to make about four times their current salary, but they'll never see that money because the market doesn't demand it.

BTW, what were you doing with your money in college? I know I wasn't researching mutual funds or buying educational materials at the book store. I was a bartender in college, and many nights the money I made in tips was gone before I passed out face down on my apartment floor.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2014, 09:50:11 AM »
Exactly... because we all know that every kid today - student athlete or not - deserves the newest iPhones, tablets, laptops, home gaming systems, Dre Headphones, $200 jeans, etc.  And those things cost money, yo.

Boy are you missing the boat.

If boosters/alumni are willing to throw money at a kid, then their worth to the school is more than a scholarship.  This has nothing to do with them being whiny and demanding.

... and this only applies to less than 10 basketball recruits a year, and some years less than 5 (that's for the entire sport, not per school).

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2014, 10:05:24 AM »
http://espn.go.com/chicago/college-football/story/_/id/10833981/northwestern-football-players-poised-historic-vote-whether-unionize

Northwestern football players voted Friday morning on whether to unionize, but the ballots will be impounded for now and only opened if the board sides with the players, a decision that could take months. The board's decision to approve the review was expected by both sides in the case.


So nothing will come of this for months.

But this is Chicago and we are good at two things ... shoveling snow and rigging votes.

So expect "unofficial results" before dinner.

keefe

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2014, 10:07:56 AM »
Right now the scale is tipped heavily in favor of the schools.

People keep saying this but one cannot refute the economic value of an athletic scholarship. We had two kids matriculate at private schools while the third was on a Div I scholarship; the financial difference is staggering.

For many in this country a college education is simply out of the question for reasons of economics. Where is the argument for the enabling benefit of athletic scholarships?

Finally, if we are to allow athletes in revenue-generating sports to be materially compensated what about those in the non-rev sports? And what effect will paying athletes have on competitive balance? Sanctioned payments simply ratchets up the cost of cheating that will continue regardless of economic model because boosters seek victory and not an improved bottom line for the university.

Football and basketball generate revenue which is used to fund many things. While not a zero sum game, compensating athletes will require a restructuring of university budgeting.


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MUSF

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2014, 10:23:37 AM »
People keep saying this but one cannot refute the economic value of an athletic scholarship. We had two kids matriculate at private schools while the third was on a Div I scholarship; the financial difference is staggering.

For many in this country a college education is simply out of the question for reasons of economics. Where is the argument for the enabling benefit of athletic scholarships?

Finally, if we are to allow athletes in revenue-generating sports to be materially compensated what about those in the non-rev sports? And what effect will paying athletes have on competitive balance? Sanctioned payments simply ratchets up the cost of cheating that will continue regardless of economic model because boosters seek victory and not an improved bottom line for the university.

Football and basketball generate revenue which is used to fund many things. While not a zero sum game, compensating athletes will require a restructuring of university budgeting.

I don't disagree with you on the enabling benefits of athletic scholarships, but that's a hard argument to make because it's not easily quantifiable and it's based solely on future value. The argument becomes much less valid when talking about basketball players who have no intention of using their degree to earn money after school. They don't need the education to make money in the NBA, Europe, or D-League.

The argument about the negative impacts on non-revenue sports is irrelevant to the issue of benefits to athletes in revenue generating sports. Why should those athletes be responsible for generating revenue to support those that don't? It's not a bball players fault that nobody wants to pay to watch gymnastics.

Finally, competitive balance may very well suffer if the system is changed to benefit athletes in revenue generating sports. While that would be sad from a fan and small school perspective, it doesn't justify the current policies from the elite athlete's perspective. Competitive balance isn't the players' problem. Those players have every right to do everything in their power to leverage their position to get a better deal.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2014, 10:38:16 AM »
I don't disagree with you on the enabling benefits of athletic scholarships, but that's a hard argument to make because it's not easily quantifiable and it's based solely on future value. The argument becomes much less valid when talking about basketball players who have no intention of using their degree to earn money after school. They don't need the education to make money in the NBA, Europe, or D-League.

The argument about the negative impacts on non-revenue sports is irrelevant to the issue of benefits to athletes in revenue generating sports. Why should those athletes be responsible for generating revenue to support those that don't? It's not a bball players fault that nobody wants to pay to watch gymnastics.


Finally, competitive balance may very well suffer if the system is changed to benefit athletes in revenue generating sports. While that would be sad from a fan and small school perspective, it doesn't justify the current policies from the elite athlete's perspective. Competitive balance isn't the players' problem. Those players have every right to do everything in their power to leverage their position to get a better deal.

This

You would never work for an organization that freely admitted they underpaid you so they have the funds to allow people in unprofitable divisions continue to earn a paycheck. 

If a school wants to have a gymnastics program, they need to decide it on its merits, just like they do a chemistry program.

keefe

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2014, 10:48:32 AM »
I don't disagree with you on the enabling benefits of athletic scholarships, but that's a hard argument to make because it's not easily quantifiable and it's based solely on future value. The argument becomes much less valid when talking about basketball players who have no intention of using their degree to earn money after school. They don't need the education to make money in the NBA, Europe, or D-League.

The argument about the negative impacts on non-revenue sports is irrelevant to the issue of benefits to athletes in revenue generating sports. Why should those athletes be responsible for generating revenue to support those that don't? It's not a bball players fault that nobody wants to pay to watch gymnastics.

Finally, competitive balance may very well suffer if the system is changed to benefit athletes in revenue generating sports. While that would be sad from a fan and small school perspective, it doesn't justify the current policies from the elite athlete's perspective. Competitive balance isn't the players' problem. Those players have every right to do everything in their power to leverage their position to get a better deal.

The real issue you are ignoring is the matter of capital and risk in this equation. Student athletes can try to achieve economic gain through strife within a system others have built or they can create their own system. THAT is genuine free enterprise.

Business Case on Capital and Risk: AMR invested huge amounts of capital in creating SABRE. Other airlines cried foul, saying SABRE gave AMR an unfair competitive advantage. But AMR took the risk and were entitled to reap the benefit.







Death on call

LegalEagle15

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2014, 10:56:55 AM »
I don't disagree with you on the enabling benefits of athletic scholarships, but that's a hard argument to make because it's not easily quantifiable and it's based solely on future value. The argument becomes much less valid when talking about basketball players who have no intention of using their degree to earn money after school. They don't need the education to make money in the NBA, Europe, or D-League.

The argument about the negative impacts on non-revenue sports is irrelevant to the issue of benefits to athletes in revenue generating sports. Why should those athletes be responsible for generating revenue to support those that don't? It's not a bball players fault that nobody wants to pay to watch gymnastics.

Finally, competitive balance may very well suffer if the system is changed to benefit athletes in revenue generating sports. While that would be sad from a fan and small school perspective, it doesn't justify the current policies from the elite athlete's perspective. Competitive balance isn't the players' problem. Those players have every right to do everything in their power to leverage their position to get a better deal.

It's relevant because if you start paying athletes in revenue generating sports and you have to make up that cost somewhere else, cutting non-revenue sports is going to be a way to do that. Then we run into Title IX issues.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2014, 11:01:59 AM »
It's relevant because if you start paying athletes in revenue generating sports and you have to make up that cost somewhere else, cutting non-revenue sports is going to be a way to do that. Then we run into Title IX issues.

True. We could see schools that have men's football, men's basketball, and like 15 women's sports. All the non-revenue men's sports could have to be cut to save money.
TAMU

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keefe

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2014, 11:03:10 AM »
It's relevant because if you start paying athletes in revenue generating sports and you have to make up that cost somewhere else, cutting non-revenue sports is going to be a way to do that. Then we run into Title IX issues.

Thank you. Universities adapted to many factors that have created the system as it now exists. And Title IX dictates that you must have an equal number of scholarships by gender. Women's sports do not pay for themselves so they must be subsidized. Who pays for that?



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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Northwestern football players to vote on union Friday
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2014, 11:05:14 AM »
It has nothing to do with what they deserve, it's about what they are worth. Does an NBA athlete deserve a $20 million dollar contract? No, but that's his market value in the multibillion dollar industry of professional basketball.

School teachers "deserve" to make about four times their current salary, but they'll never see that money because the market doesn't demand it.

BTW, what were you doing with your money in college? I know I wasn't researching mutual funds or buying educational materials at the book store. I was a bartender in college, and many nights the money I made in tips was gone before I passed out face down on my apartment floor.

If you truly believe this, then you would have to believe a bench player is worth less, a qb worth more, so on and so forth. 

Why do you think school teachers "deserve" to make about four times more?  Cuz it makes you feel good?  Should school teachers salaries be pegged to results...wouldn't that be interesting.  That's how much of the other world works (I say this as the son of a school teacher).

And since we are talking about worth, how much is the TOTAL VALUE of a college education, not just the tuition avoidance?  According to many studies, someone with a college degree earns nearly double a person without it.  Over the course of their life, it means earning power of about $2.4M over a 40 year career, vs $1.3M without a degree.  More than $1M.

Plus they didn't have to pay for the parchment.    They are getting what they are "worth", and then some.